Lost all your CAA ATPL Exam Credits?
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I still have not read a decent argument from anybody on this posting in relation to this topic. It seems to me like it is a case of 'I'm all right jack'. The original posting was in relation to loss of ATPL exam credits.
Whichever way you dress it up it is an unfair system, sure I am not disputing the fact that you have to study damn hard to pass the exams, but surely it is not fair to take those exams away which you have studied so hard to pass. The system could, and should be improved, so what if you were given unlimited time to complete the theory, as long as you learn it and passed it who cares if it takes you 1 or 10yrs. My point is you would study at your own pace as and when you could afford it, and you could be as quick or slow to complete the exams as you wished.
Surely you must agree of the benefit this would bring to the UK aviation training establishments. Bloggs passes theory then spends thousands on the flying part of the training, instead of bloggs dropping out because although he has passed most of the ATPL's they are now being taken from him cos he wasn't quick enough to pass them all.
This is unfair and unjust and is just an attempt in my opinion for the CAA to extract the money from the customer that he/she was going to use for the flying training part.
It is no wonder that general aviation and training is dying a slow death in this country.
Whichever way you dress it up it is an unfair system, sure I am not disputing the fact that you have to study damn hard to pass the exams, but surely it is not fair to take those exams away which you have studied so hard to pass. The system could, and should be improved, so what if you were given unlimited time to complete the theory, as long as you learn it and passed it who cares if it takes you 1 or 10yrs. My point is you would study at your own pace as and when you could afford it, and you could be as quick or slow to complete the exams as you wished.
Surely you must agree of the benefit this would bring to the UK aviation training establishments. Bloggs passes theory then spends thousands on the flying part of the training, instead of bloggs dropping out because although he has passed most of the ATPL's they are now being taken from him cos he wasn't quick enough to pass them all.
This is unfair and unjust and is just an attempt in my opinion for the CAA to extract the money from the customer that he/she was going to use for the flying training part.
It is no wonder that general aviation and training is dying a slow death in this country.
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One of the objectives of the written examinations is to see if you can pass them in a limited period of time, in other words it is a measure of how much information you can absorb and retain in a given period of time (10 years forget it!).
As time is fundamental to the issue so is planning, with the exams coming to a well advertised end, planning is utmost. Hopefully, those who have come up against the deadline will be somewhat better at fuel planning than they were at completing the exams on time.
By the way, the CAA is not a professional body, it is a regulatory authority.
As time is fundamental to the issue so is planning, with the exams coming to a well advertised end, planning is utmost. Hopefully, those who have come up against the deadline will be somewhat better at fuel planning than they were at completing the exams on time.
By the way, the CAA is not a professional body, it is a regulatory authority.
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Aren't we still missing the original point of this thread which, is losing all examination credits. (not specifically missing dedlines). Without an upgrade route from CPL to ATPL, basing the upgrade on CPL credits, (as in the old system), the introduction of the new (so so much imporoved) JAA system does disadvantage existing CPL holders by forcing them to re take examinations in subjects which they have already passed. Bear in mind many of these people have been continuing to demonstrate the so relevent knowledge of these subjects, since passing their examinations, by working as commercial pilots, (instructors, single crew taxi, rhs 747 etc.). Why should they have to jump through all these hoops 'again'? (Please, don't anyone suggest that the subject matter in the JAA stuff is any more relevant to modern aeroplane operations that the old stuff was ..... 20%)
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VNE or nothing
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VNE or nothing
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Crash Barrier, the system is an extended selection process.
Many years ago when I started on the road to becoming a pilot I was baffled by conficting advice given by all the training school,should I go via the modular route, or was the CAP509 route the best option, so I decided to ask the people who I would be looking to for a job after getting my licence, so I asked the chief pilot of a major charter airline, 'what he would be looking for?', he gave me the following response: ' I would not give you a job' was his first comment, 'I would recommend you doing a CAP509 course' why I asked? ' well to get 10 O'Levels in 10 years, what does that prove, but to get 10 O'Levels in 1 year proves to me that I can risk putting you through a type rating course and there as a good change you could keep up', so I decided on the 509 course.
Sorry for being of no help, but this may shed some light on the reason why the CAA put time limits on exams,to draw a line at a level of academic ability.
Many years ago when I started on the road to becoming a pilot I was baffled by conficting advice given by all the training school,should I go via the modular route, or was the CAP509 route the best option, so I decided to ask the people who I would be looking to for a job after getting my licence, so I asked the chief pilot of a major charter airline, 'what he would be looking for?', he gave me the following response: ' I would not give you a job' was his first comment, 'I would recommend you doing a CAP509 course' why I asked? ' well to get 10 O'Levels in 10 years, what does that prove, but to get 10 O'Levels in 1 year proves to me that I can risk putting you through a type rating course and there as a good change you could keep up', so I decided on the 509 course.
Sorry for being of no help, but this may shed some light on the reason why the CAA put time limits on exams,to draw a line at a level of academic ability.
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Personaly "I'm all right"......but that doesn't stop me feeling immensly for people like Crash who have missed the boat.
The likes of Too Hot To Fly seem to have a large chip on thier shoulder or do not understand fully what has happend.
When the CAA decided to implement the JAR they did so in typical British manner and completly fluffed it. I defy anyone to come up with an exact figure on the number of times the goal posts have been moved in the last 2 years. When I started out I was told the CAA would issue me with a written "statement of requirements" (in return for about £60.00) upon request. Literally between me sending off my cheque and the CAA recieving it they changed the rules - instead of recieving a written statement of requirements I was pointed to CAP 54 and the AICs. The point I am making is that at that time the CAA themselves could not commit to paper what my requirments were as they did not know how the phasing out of the national system and the phasing in of the JAR sytem was to be carried out. The implication is that they had decided they would have to "play it by ear"
Thats exactly what they did - I have on several occassions received personal advice from CAA staff that contradicted published information.
If the CAA staff couldn't understand it, what hope for us mere mortals ?
As far as moving the goal posts is concerned, If a business had tried to vary the terms of a contract part way though by publishing new terms on a website, but not personally advising other parties I think we all know what would happen in court when the client sued for breach of contract.
THTF and like minded individuals _ S*d Off , good luck to the rest of you.
CS
The likes of Too Hot To Fly seem to have a large chip on thier shoulder or do not understand fully what has happend.
When the CAA decided to implement the JAR they did so in typical British manner and completly fluffed it. I defy anyone to come up with an exact figure on the number of times the goal posts have been moved in the last 2 years. When I started out I was told the CAA would issue me with a written "statement of requirements" (in return for about £60.00) upon request. Literally between me sending off my cheque and the CAA recieving it they changed the rules - instead of recieving a written statement of requirements I was pointed to CAP 54 and the AICs. The point I am making is that at that time the CAA themselves could not commit to paper what my requirments were as they did not know how the phasing out of the national system and the phasing in of the JAR sytem was to be carried out. The implication is that they had decided they would have to "play it by ear"
Thats exactly what they did - I have on several occassions received personal advice from CAA staff that contradicted published information.
If the CAA staff couldn't understand it, what hope for us mere mortals ?
As far as moving the goal posts is concerned, If a business had tried to vary the terms of a contract part way though by publishing new terms on a website, but not personally advising other parties I think we all know what would happen in court when the client sued for breach of contract.
THTF and like minded individuals _ S*d Off , good luck to the rest of you.
CS
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Oops pardon me strate and level, you mention
fuel planning, silly me was that not part of one examination for the CPL, I remember now, plot the fuel burn and route for a 707! So you relate passing all the exams in a silly space of time, to how good a new pilot would be at plotting a fuel burn? Hmmmm moving swiftly on.
Absorbing information is one thing, having all examinations taken off of you becasuse you failed one question on human performance is something else. I maintain my view that this is entirely unfair, it is no wonder that the states has such a buoyant general aviation market, and we in comparison dont.
The reason is that they want people to fly, sadly the same cannot be said for the CAA. General Aviation and professional training will continue to die a slow death in this country, more and more wannabe's will be put of by the high cost of training for the theory and moving of goalposts by the CAA.
To those of you that are naive enough to think that this is a fair system,I would like to point out that many pilots were trusted to go on bombing raids in the war with very little experience both in terms of theory and flight.
fuel planning, silly me was that not part of one examination for the CPL, I remember now, plot the fuel burn and route for a 707! So you relate passing all the exams in a silly space of time, to how good a new pilot would be at plotting a fuel burn? Hmmmm moving swiftly on.
Absorbing information is one thing, having all examinations taken off of you becasuse you failed one question on human performance is something else. I maintain my view that this is entirely unfair, it is no wonder that the states has such a buoyant general aviation market, and we in comparison dont.
The reason is that they want people to fly, sadly the same cannot be said for the CAA. General Aviation and professional training will continue to die a slow death in this country, more and more wannabe's will be put of by the high cost of training for the theory and moving of goalposts by the CAA.
To those of you that are naive enough to think that this is a fair system,I would like to point out that many pilots were trusted to go on bombing raids in the war with very little experience both in terms of theory and flight.
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Spud - As I have mentioned in a similar thread, the changing of the written exams to JAR has certainly not left 'me alright'. I started the exams on several occasions and then had to give up due to other commitments. They then started phasing out the exams and I took the decision that rather than risk not meeting the deadline for the CAA exams, I would do the JAA ones instead. It would have been much easier for me to do the CAA exams (primarily because of the fact that you didn't have to take 4 weeks off to go for groundschool) but I have accepted it and just got on with it. I think you should keep the personal insults out if it unless you know the full story.
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Crash Barrier,
It isn't a fair system, and I don't think anyone is saying it is. Nevertheless, Touch & Go's post is absolutely spot-on. But I do rather get the impression you're not listening. You want sympathy? OK, you got it. But now get up off your butt and dust yourself off and carry on, and stop moaning and insulting people.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
It isn't a fair system, and I don't think anyone is saying it is. Nevertheless, Touch & Go's post is absolutely spot-on. But I do rather get the impression you're not listening. You want sympathy? OK, you got it. But now get up off your butt and dust yourself off and carry on, and stop moaning and insulting people.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Whirlybird,
I am not moaning and insulting people, in fact you always seem to start that off. What I am trying to do is have a constructive debate about this subject. I may not be right, but the general opinion regarding time limits on exams is that it is unfair. What would be a fairer system? well getting rid of the time limits altogether might be a start!
Debate is what I thought this forum was for. If one is not allowed to vent one's opinion without getting jumped on at the first opportunity, then we might as well get rid of pprune entirely.
Beware the lynchmob!
I am not moaning and insulting people, in fact you always seem to start that off. What I am trying to do is have a constructive debate about this subject. I may not be right, but the general opinion regarding time limits on exams is that it is unfair. What would be a fairer system? well getting rid of the time limits altogether might be a start!
Debate is what I thought this forum was for. If one is not allowed to vent one's opinion without getting jumped on at the first opportunity, then we might as well get rid of pprune entirely.
Beware the lynchmob!
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Too Hot To Fly
I now understand why you are bitter towards people whom it is suggested should be given extra time to complete the CAA exams - You made a bad call and chose the JAR route.
As they say " no one can kick you as hard as yourself"
CS
I now understand why you are bitter towards people whom it is suggested should be given extra time to complete the CAA exams - You made a bad call and chose the JAR route.
As they say " no one can kick you as hard as yourself"
CS
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Captain Spud
'Bad call choosing JAA and getting through as opposed to sticking with CAA and not'…warped logic there old son!!!
'Ja' makes the point that missing the deadlines and losing your credits are not the same thing, …they are very much the same thing.
The CAA set deadlines for the last sittings. Not only did some people miss those but missed a further TWO extensions.
To still be under the old system you would have to have started around TWO YEARS ago!
Now I know there are the arguments about other commitments, jobs etc but this is not a part-time flower arranging course you are on here. Commitment is what it is all about. If you could not give that level of time and commitment for whatever valid reason, you should NOT have taken on what is one of the most demanding, expensive, time consuming, unfair vocational commitments known to man!
For the record, the JAR system is even MORE unfair. If you have 13 passes and fail one subject, like Air Law on your last attempt by 1%, you lose ALL 13! AND, you only have 18 months from your first pass (even 1 subject) to get the lot, so not much difference eh? At least under the old system you would keep your partial pass.
Remember also that because the CAA dived feet first into JAR early on. We are well and truly in it. The CAA do not have the ability to change policy in isolation, and any changes would take forever. What’s more you could not commute your CAA passes to the new system, as the subjects do not have an exact exam match.
Now whingeing and calling the CAA all the names under the sun will solve nothing.
It has been my experience that the CAA are in fact reasonable people..if treated as such. What will not work is complaining about a system which is pretty well cast in stone. Don’t give them problems (yours), give them solutions…a way out.
Now if you have been unable to sit exams due to ill health etc then I am sure you have a case. If you have just missed the well-publicised deadlines because you were too busy with other commitments, then you are probably stuffed.
Why not suggest that an emergency last sitting be set up within the next 6 weeks in one location as a final last chance clean up.
Sadly I suspect that if the CAA did this, we would still hear that ‘the date didn’t suit’, ‘the location didn’t suit’ or ‘but I only failed by 1% can I have another go?’ etc.
It’s 100% guys and it doesn’t get any easier. There’s a deadline on your CPL & IR as well!, when you miss it are you going to be back here moaning that that’s not fair?
You are in a rotten situation but…
[This message has been edited by clear prop!!! (edited 22 June 2001).]
'Bad call choosing JAA and getting through as opposed to sticking with CAA and not'…warped logic there old son!!!
'Ja' makes the point that missing the deadlines and losing your credits are not the same thing, …they are very much the same thing.
The CAA set deadlines for the last sittings. Not only did some people miss those but missed a further TWO extensions.
To still be under the old system you would have to have started around TWO YEARS ago!
Now I know there are the arguments about other commitments, jobs etc but this is not a part-time flower arranging course you are on here. Commitment is what it is all about. If you could not give that level of time and commitment for whatever valid reason, you should NOT have taken on what is one of the most demanding, expensive, time consuming, unfair vocational commitments known to man!
For the record, the JAR system is even MORE unfair. If you have 13 passes and fail one subject, like Air Law on your last attempt by 1%, you lose ALL 13! AND, you only have 18 months from your first pass (even 1 subject) to get the lot, so not much difference eh? At least under the old system you would keep your partial pass.
Remember also that because the CAA dived feet first into JAR early on. We are well and truly in it. The CAA do not have the ability to change policy in isolation, and any changes would take forever. What’s more you could not commute your CAA passes to the new system, as the subjects do not have an exact exam match.
Now whingeing and calling the CAA all the names under the sun will solve nothing.
It has been my experience that the CAA are in fact reasonable people..if treated as such. What will not work is complaining about a system which is pretty well cast in stone. Don’t give them problems (yours), give them solutions…a way out.
Now if you have been unable to sit exams due to ill health etc then I am sure you have a case. If you have just missed the well-publicised deadlines because you were too busy with other commitments, then you are probably stuffed.
Why not suggest that an emergency last sitting be set up within the next 6 weeks in one location as a final last chance clean up.
Sadly I suspect that if the CAA did this, we would still hear that ‘the date didn’t suit’, ‘the location didn’t suit’ or ‘but I only failed by 1% can I have another go?’ etc.
It’s 100% guys and it doesn’t get any easier. There’s a deadline on your CPL & IR as well!, when you miss it are you going to be back here moaning that that’s not fair?
You are in a rotten situation but…
[This message has been edited by clear prop!!! (edited 22 June 2001).]
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Spud - you seem to be missing the point entirely. As someone has already pointed out, the extension of the deadlines devalues the work that other people have already put in to achieve the passes in the time required. The rules were there in black and white and people can't complain because they didn't know about them - they were easy enough to find out. People should have set themselves deadlines and the CAA were certainly quite clear in warning people of them. They abolished the requirement to have a partial pass by a certain date which in my opinion was a mistake because it led to more people allowing themselves unrealistic timescales to complete the exams. Whilst I feel sorry for the people who have missed the deadline (why would I have any reason to be bitter) you can't expect the CAA to just keep extending the deadline until anyone who ever had a trial lesson prior to 1999 has been allowed to complete their exams.
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Clear Prop,
For your information there has been some very good suggestions regarding what the CAA can do to make the examinations fairer, but as usual they will ignore the lot because they are more interested in raking the money in for themselves, thereby keeping the poor student from getting as far as the flying part of the commercial.
I say again, as long as this system is in place UK general aviation and training will continue to die.
Oh, and another thing in the days of the old exam system, the CAA gave you a year to pass all 15 exams, so your theory that the JAA is harder when you are given 3 years to pass them somewhat falls apart.
For your information there has been some very good suggestions regarding what the CAA can do to make the examinations fairer, but as usual they will ignore the lot because they are more interested in raking the money in for themselves, thereby keeping the poor student from getting as far as the flying part of the commercial.
I say again, as long as this system is in place UK general aviation and training will continue to die.
Oh, and another thing in the days of the old exam system, the CAA gave you a year to pass all 15 exams, so your theory that the JAA is harder when you are given 3 years to pass them somewhat falls apart.
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The only unfair issue for you guys is that you will have to undertake another six months ground school (or attempt D/L) to stand a chance of having a fair crack at the JAA exams.
I can't see any arguement for having even more sittings under the old system.
I can't see any arguement for having even more sittings under the old system.
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Fly
Whz that then???
These guys new the rules..took a gamble and it didn't work.
What about all the others that also knew the rules, spent a bloody fortune, and went through the hell of the initial JAA exams?
I know for a fact that if the CAA had said you can stay with the old system for as long as you feel you would like, there would have been hundreds who would have done so.
I suppose they would like the BCPL brought back as well!
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE?
If I had failed just one JAA exam within the 18 month time scale or failed just one on the last attempt it would be back to square one... full stop..end of story.
There are rules, unfair ones, but rules none the less, they apply to us all.
Whz that then???
These guys new the rules..took a gamble and it didn't work.
What about all the others that also knew the rules, spent a bloody fortune, and went through the hell of the initial JAA exams?
I know for a fact that if the CAA had said you can stay with the old system for as long as you feel you would like, there would have been hundreds who would have done so.
I suppose they would like the BCPL brought back as well!
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE?
If I had failed just one JAA exam within the 18 month time scale or failed just one on the last attempt it would be back to square one... full stop..end of story.
There are rules, unfair ones, but rules none the less, they apply to us all.
Guest
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Three years ago, a friend warned me that JAR was on its way, and that each exam would be like a degree in itself - it would be a total disaster and all would fail. He urged me to join him on his CAA ATPL course, but I had faith in my flying school when they said 'jar will be just fine'.
Well, I was on one of the first jar courses and he was right! He finished his training two years ago, did a spot of instructing and now flies the line, while I havn't touched a plane in over a year, still studying day and night.
I estimate that it will have cost me more to pass these exams (before even touching a plane) than it cost him to complete his entire course! (im talking £30K+)
Well its been great being a JAR pioneer - wheres my medal?
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This thread seems to have decayed into,who`s in and who`s out.Somebody mentioned on here that its not possible to carry over your`e exam credits over to the JAR system? well its already happening!.My point!!.Lets take somebody doing perf A in june of this year.He or she fails.That person is then allowed to go and sit the eqivalent exam but under JAR.A similar exam but different.Therefore why can a person who has failed some of the exams under the old system not be credited with those exams,and just re sit the ones they failed under JAR.Its not rocket science is it!!.
Look nobodys asking the CAA to just give us the exams,we all understand that.Were just asking for a bit of savy to be used here.After all somebody did state that perhaps we should be helping the CAA form some sort of solution.
If i may go back to the thread that mentions that the exam date cut of points and extensions of partial pass rule changes etc were well documented!!!.Well they wern`t really were they?.I mean lets face it considering that were talking pro job,pro exams blah blah blah,sticking the changes on a website,or relying on people to get information via rumour control,isn`t really cutting the mustard,what ever way you look at it.May i suggest that the CAA should have informed everybody that was in the system via post, who were elligible for remaining under the national exams,of yet again there being changes.It can`t be that hard,after all we are all on there data base!!.Just an idea for the future.
Ref the 10 year thingy.The ground engineers who are licensed have been granted exactly this ruling.There examinations switched over to JAR,with all the cock ups that we have had,but were allowed to keep all there previous exams,and to attain there equivalent under JAR,sitting various new and updated modules within a 10 year period.This is known as Grandfather rights.Each and every individual who qualifed under this directive was informed by post to there home addrese,so there was no grey area.
Ive just chucked in a few ideas,nothing mind boggling just perhaps a little common sense
Look nobodys asking the CAA to just give us the exams,we all understand that.Were just asking for a bit of savy to be used here.After all somebody did state that perhaps we should be helping the CAA form some sort of solution.
If i may go back to the thread that mentions that the exam date cut of points and extensions of partial pass rule changes etc were well documented!!!.Well they wern`t really were they?.I mean lets face it considering that were talking pro job,pro exams blah blah blah,sticking the changes on a website,or relying on people to get information via rumour control,isn`t really cutting the mustard,what ever way you look at it.May i suggest that the CAA should have informed everybody that was in the system via post, who were elligible for remaining under the national exams,of yet again there being changes.It can`t be that hard,after all we are all on there data base!!.Just an idea for the future.
Ref the 10 year thingy.The ground engineers who are licensed have been granted exactly this ruling.There examinations switched over to JAR,with all the cock ups that we have had,but were allowed to keep all there previous exams,and to attain there equivalent under JAR,sitting various new and updated modules within a 10 year period.This is known as Grandfather rights.Each and every individual who qualifed under this directive was informed by post to there home addrese,so there was no grey area.
Ive just chucked in a few ideas,nothing mind boggling just perhaps a little common sense
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At last a sensible reply, well done rocketboots! I have to say though even with all of your good intentions it seems that the general opinion from other posts on this forum seems to be in support of whatever the CAA throw at us. A pity really because if more potential pilots banded together then perhaps we could get some of the rules changed to a fairer system. I think the 10 year rule should apply to pilots also, if it is good enough for the mechanics surely it should apply to us too.
Perhaps in the not too distant future when the exam room at Gatwick is empty, the CAA may rethink their policy.
Perhaps in the not too distant future when the exam room at Gatwick is empty, the CAA may rethink their policy.