Lost all your CAA ATPL Exam Credits?
 

So how many of you out there are in the same "boat" as I am - I just failed Radio Aids and Met Practical for the second (and last) time so I have now lost all my other 13 Nav and Tech Exams for ATPL(A)? I have just written to the CAA to urge them to reconsider allowing us to complete our 3 or 4 attempts (if needed) OR introduce a fair system of credits for the JAR ATPL(A). I know that I am not alone - the more pressure that we can put the Authority under may sway their policy - you never know! Will you write?

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The Ferret!

Sorry to hear about your loss of exam credits. This sadly has been the case for many years now, many friends of mine have been in the same boat as yourself. What you have to remember is that the CAA are a bunch of money making grubby little turds! You have to think to yourself; what have you learnt from taking these exams? do they improve your flying ability? thought not! They are a needless waste of time to pick out the rich from the poor. I knew this female ppl once, rich daddy, completely messed up the ATPL's in four separate attempts, eventually passed the pepsi challenge on the 6th attempt, daddy then paid for the I.R. and all GFT's, and she
kept failing them too. She now flies for a leading charter airline on the 767, daddy shelled out approx £100,000 complete with 767
type rating.
The moral of the story is never to start the
multi-guess rubbish in the first place if you don't have the reddies.
Just think if you had gone to South Africa,Oz
or the U.S. you could actually be flying something over there now for a living...
Do not expect any favours from the CAA, my friends never had any luck in trying to extend their exam credits, and due to money probs, many of them have now given up.
It will never change, CAA/JAA private enterprise, money making scam....
Someone somewhere is getting very rich!
I wish you luck.
C.B.

Ferret

Sorry to hear of your situation, I can simpathise as I find myself in a similar position. Back in May I had passed all of the CAA ATPL's with the exception of Navigation, which in my final two attempts I achieved 73% & 74%.

The CAA would not offer any re-take options at the final June sitting and advised a re-mark would be a waste of £37 as "in 10 years I have never seen a paper increase its marks after a re-mark"

Now Facing the daunting prospect of having to sit all the ATPL subjects (14 of which I had previously passed)under the JAA system, I called the CAA to ascertain if I would be able to gain any reduction in the 650hr quoted study requirement, due to my previous exam passes. After a two-day think, I got a call with the predictable "NO" response.

So having spent the best part of 2 years self-study and got to within 1% of passing all 15 exams, I now have to dust down all the study notes and start all over again.

It's at times like these you quite rightly ask yourself why am I doing this and is it really worth it ?

Having come to the conclusion that I am to far down the aviation road to stop now, I would appreciate any advice from you guys on best options for DL JAA ATPL courses. At the moment I am leaning towards Oxford, but any thoughts or experience on Bristol or PPSC ?

Crash Barrier,

I am not the CAA, before you start, but....

I don't see how you can verbally abuse and insult these people at Gatwick on a world wide internet site, in one breath, and then on another breath expect them to treat you like adults and bend the rules for you.

There are many ways to skin a cat to get what you want, but I don't think this approach will work to well, I never managed to get a favour of some one I have just insulted.


[This message has been edited by touch&go (edited 19 June 2001).]

Sorry to hear of your plight however, the CAA have to draw the line somewhere.

I for one had to study for the CPL exams first and then later upgraded them to ATPL all whilst in full time employment.

I'm not rich and did the PPSC Correspondence Course without the benefit of a brush up course. I know many others who have passed the exams by this method.

I too resent the amount of money I have paid the CAA but that's life.

It may be easier and cheaper in the USA but you will not get a decent flying job without several thousand hours.

I wish you luck.

Well there we go, after one posting I get back a naff reply from touch and go. For your information touch and go, friends of mine have paid thousands of pounds to sit these examinations only to get within one or two per cent of passing the lot. They have approached the CAA with the respect that a professional body should deserve, because they think that having passed all ATPL exams bar one and missing that one exam by 1-2% that they should indeed have the right to keep the exams that they have studied so hard for. They are then told by the CAA that all the hard work/ money they have spent on these exams was for nothing, and that they then have to re-study the lot!

This clearly is not fair, I cannot think of another career in which you lose examinations that you have passed. In my opinion it is all about raking the money in as far as the CAA is concerned. I have no problem with studying for 15 or so exams, but to be told that I have to retake the lot after failing one or two of them by a few percent beggars belief!

My sympathy goes out to those of you that are in this position at the moment, I hope that somehow you can extend your exam credits, but if not you have to ask yourself; why would you want to go through the same again?

A 'professional' body would not rip you off in this way, it is up to us, the customers to question the obscure practice that the CAA would put us through.

'Touch and go' if you do not work for the CAA
then I would like to see some respect afforded to the paying pilots on this page.
If you do work for the CAA then please take these comments back to them.

I also just failed one of the CAA papers,73% in Instruments and I am in the same boat all because I didnt know what a dither did in the IRS. I am now forced to re sit every exam written since the Wright brothers took to the air.I also believe that the CAA are behaving disgracefully,we have all worked really hard for these exams and now this has all been taken away in one foul swoop.They should realise that we are the customers and therefore give us every chance of obtaining the necessary as we are already in the system.I have just received the JAR course from OATS and never seen so much over complicated trivia in all my life.Its great reading if ever you need to design, build and operate a nuclear power station in space but of very little relavence to the day to day operation of an airliner.The CAA 's excuse is that we were all forewarned in January that these exams would finish in June,but the notes sent out with the booking details were very misleading at first glance.What annoys me more than anything is that whats set in concrete one moment is then changed whenever it suits.When I first got my CPL/IR the Atpl'S were only valid for 5 yrs unless the magical 1500 hrs were attained.Then because the BA cadets didnt go straight into flying jobs the CAA decided to scrap this idea because they couldnt upset them could they.Then a few years ago they devalued the CPL even further by saying you couldnt change aircraft type without the ATPL,so what use is the commercial licence now having paid nearly £50000 for? I,ve been flying jets for a major UK operator for 7 years and I am now in the position of losing my job because I cant change aircraft type and have to go right back to square one and learn about the theory of flight.The bottom line is the CAA won't bend on this because their main aim is to generate money and shuffle paper while they shine their arses in Gatwick.

[This message has been edited by fcom (edited 20 June 2001).]

fcom/CB

As an aside, it's worth remembering that there are a lot of people making money out of the current situation, and I have a theory that a lot of them are represented on this list.

Personaly, I don't share your gripe as I've been fortunate enought to get through the writtens, however I sympathise with your predicament and wish you all the best in trying to find a way forward. I think it's a breach of every rule in the civilised world to take something away from you, specialy when it's ones lively hood.

All those who cannot see the blatant injustice in this, let me ask you how you would feel in the DVLC decieded to insist on a type rating for each car that you drive, change the rules half way through, and publish these changes in unreadable AIC's and on the web. Come on, get real.

PS

>A 'professional' body would not rip you off >in this way, it is up to us, the
>customers to question the obscure practice >that the CAA would put us through.

I know of a number of people who started
as 'customers' wishing to become chartered
accountants. In their case they can only sit the exams a certain number of times then
its curtains. Lots of folks have failed Anatomy on medical courses and been binned..

This is nothing new

However I sympathise with you people caught in the transition to the JAA ATPL

The JAA qualification favours people who have lots of time and money on their hands

JAA - Nobody voted for it
Nobody wanted it
Nobody needs it

Its political and the aim is to provide
a rival to the FAA

JAA - More costly
More time consuming

If I wanted mobility in Europe with my ATPL
then it should be my CHOICE whether I spend
the extra cash!!!

The correct mechanism for cross border
standardisation in the area of flight crew licencing was ICAO ( Oh but thats American
and not European isnt it - how silly of me to suggest it)

Most people in the UK would have stuck with the national ATPL which was widely regarded
as one of the best in the world anyway and did not need changing...

RVR 800,
So although it is 'nothing new' as you say to take away examinations that have already been passed, you would agree that it is fair for the CAA to do this. We are not talking about accountants/nurses on this forum my friend, this is 'aviation' I still strongly dispute a
practice of any professional body to take away exam credits that have been studied, passed and paid for. So although it is 'nothing new' as you say, then perhaps it is time for a change.

Many a wannabe aviator has fallen foul to this multi-guess pepsi challenge rip off.
There used to be negative marking also, but then I suppose you would be in favour of that making a comeback wouldn't you Mr CAA???

I am in favour of a fair system based on the old ATPL examinations as you say, but with one added feature, give the customer as much time as he/she needs to pass the theory, i.e. not taking away exam passes due to time constraints. It would be better for the U.K. aviation training market as the customer would then go on to spend more money on the 'practical' side, and would not drop out of the system altogether, disheartened, never to fly again.

Think about it....
not everything should be as black and white as the CAA make it.

Crash Barrier,

Quote:

'Touch and go' if you do not work for the CAA
then I would like to see some respect afforded to the paying pilots on this page.
If you do work for the CAA then please take these comments back to them.

Sorry but I think you need to read my post again, I never make any disrespectful comment about pilots in my post, I only said that your method of getting the CAA to bent there rules, was to insult them in my view wasn't the correct approach.

RVR 800,
So although it is 'nothing new' as you say for the CAA to take examinations away from pilots that have already been passed, you would agree with this practice??
It must be completely heartbreaking for a potential pilot to come within 1-2% of passing the last exam, only to have them all taken away. What kind of professional licence is this??? Used to be negative marking in the exams, I guess you would be in favour of reviving that too wouldn't you RVR???

This practice has to stop! I propose a licence based on the old ATPL as you state RVR, but with no time frame built in. I.E. it's up to the customer when he/she finishes the exams. This would in my opinion be of great benefit to the U.K. aviation training market because the customer then having passed the theory, would go on the spend thousands of pounds at a training establishment on the practical side.

They would not leave aviation at the theory stage, upset, worn out, broke never to fly again.

Think about it RVR, not everything should be as black and white as the CAA would have it.

Oh, RVR you don't work for the CAA by any chance do you?????

touch&go
I thought that you would have learn`t your lesson from the thread that i raised,i.e STAND AND BE COUNTED.Obviously not!.Remember,to engage brain before going to print!!!
You say your`e not CAA?,well your`e certainly sounding like it.Its this kind of mentality your`e adopting that prevents dedicated,hard up individuals walk away from this industry.Just a thought for you!.I`ve been involved in proffesional aviation for 16 years,and wer`e not talking small aeroplanes and company here!.And i can tell you that having dealt with the Campaign Against Aviation,for nearly all of those 16 years,they are as close to a cartel as you can get.They are out of control,they are free to charge what they like when they like,and to whom they like.You pass there exams,and think that you know all about it,when you actually know nothing.
The CAA have been screwing pilots,engineers,and flight engineers for years,and it`s about time it stopped.We all want our proffesion to be proffesional,and want it to be made that not everybody can walk through the door.But! we should be living in a society in this industry where every thing should be done to encourage people to succced,not do everything in there power to make you fail.

rocketboots,

Well said. I can't help feeling that the system largely dates back to the days when there where hundreds of applicants for the odd job. I'm not saying the job market is that boyant, but it's not what it used to be either. It's designed as a hoop, not a learning process, although undoubtedly some of it is relevant.

Equaly as I've said before, once in the game, it's in your interest to ensure the door is firmly closed and bolted behind you, as the fewer pilots the better. If they change the rules, well thats fine too. Anyone working for any of the majors is largly protected by their financial muscle.

As for the CAA - well, they in the main are just pension guardians.

My views only - sorry.

PS

Guys,

I sympathise with the problem, and have in other threads suggested some things you can possibly do - see rocketboots' recent thread on this subject. Also see my recent thread for what the CAA CAN do - they gave me a pass when I pointed out that one of their answers was debatable. But whether you like it or not (and no, I wouldn't either), touch & go does have a point. You have got to find some way of approaching the CAA that appears mature and responsible, and gives them a reson to single you out and make an exception of you. And do it individually, not as a group. Show them that YOU have a good reason for a re-mark, or whatever. No, it's not fair, but life seldom is. And if you haven't learned that yet...

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

So you complain when they change the rules and it doesn't suit you but you would like them to change the rules when it does help you? If you allowed everyone in the system a further 6 months to complete the exams, there would still be people left who had not passed all the exams. Would you expect the CAA to extend the deadline a further 6 months? Obviously it's not fair to give you no recognition for the work you've put in but they can't just keep extending the deadline. A fair way of doing things would be to credit you the JAA exams you've already passed but I can't imagine that's very practical with all the states involved.

Not Fair!!! I'll give you not fair

When JAR was announced there were some who made a calculated decision to switch to the new system in order to be assured that a pass could be assured within the given timescales.


For many that was the wrong decision as the early JAR exams were a well documented joke!

What WAS unfair was that the deadlines for the UK ATPL's was then extended and extended and extended. If we had stuck with the old system life would have been a LOT easier an a pass would have been up to 8 months earlier!

I'm sorry guys, but you knew the deadlines, you then saw them extended several times and you STILL have not a full pass, under MUCH easier exams.

It's bad news, but don't blame the CAA...blame yourselves you knew the rules!

Harsh words I know but this is not High school!

Good luck ...(and I DO mean that)

Toohottofly and Clear Prop.

I agree.

There has been a lot of talk about professionalism and the irrelevance of much of the content of the ATPL exams. I agree that some of the syllabus may be irrelevant but a professional pilot needs to demonstrate a level of knowledge appropriate to the job. I'm a mechanical engineer by profession and some of what I studied and was examined on I have never used but that is true of all professions.

It is not a case of "Im all right Jack, pull up the ladder" but the pass mark has been set at 75% and to make exceptions or concessions would devalue the efforts put in by all those including myself who have passed the exams.

If it was easy everyone would be at it!

I sympathise, but that's life.

Got to agree with the 3 posts above, if the CAA made exceptions for people there would be little point in having exams at all.

I passed the exam's through bloody hard work and at the end got a licence. The relevence of the exams is really not important.

Crash

I do NOT work for the CAA

This whole game is becoming

more time consuming
more expensive
and more difficult

The only consolation is the qualification is becoming more valuable as a consequence

The old CPL exams which I passed were not easy (I passed those) The old ATPL exams
were not easy (I passed those as well)

If I dont get my IR done in the next 12 months I would be required to do the new ATPL
exams !

Its a matter of biting the bullet and coughing up £5.00/minute until you get the IRT done......

When you pass the ATPLs the next biggest hurdle is the JAA IRT.. Oh and then there is the small matter of getting a job?..

Many people cant pass the sim checks or once in they get chopped..

The tragedies .. The horror .. !
We are all masochists ..