Brexit and UK licences
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I mean that we can work through one of our European partners already. I don't see a problem with BREXIT as yet, as there would have to be transition arrangements for those already studying, but just in case....
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Hopefully there are. Buy I can't see that transition agreements anywhere yet, and the deadline it's in ten months...
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Firstly, why would there have to be those transition agreements? And secondly, even if those are agreed upon, they will only come into force if there is an orderly brexit deal, which means that the irish border has to be sorted out and there will be a full separation agreement, as that is a prerequisite for anything else.
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Firstly, why would there have to be those transition agreements? And secondly, even if those are agreed upon, they will only come into force if there is an orderly brexit deal, which means that the irish border has to be sorted out and there will be a full separation agreement, as that is a prerequisite for anything else.
So yes, this can of course happen (this is the reason why I am worried), but when there is so much money at stake, I tend to think that there are also chances that the whole thing will be resolved some way. Specially if no one benefits from this situation.
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I have been reading the PART FCL document. If we strictly hold on to this document, our exams should be fine (if we complete them before 30 march 2019).
(1) Applicants shall take the entire set of theoretical knowledge examinations for a specific licence or rating under the responsibility of one Member State.
- We would in fact have taken all the exams under the responsibility of one Member State.
(c) Validity period ... (too long to put it here)
But this validity period does not mention anything regarding a member state that was in EASA and now it's not (of course, as nobody could predict what is happening)
But, as usual, I expect that the NAAs will put more problems than solutions, and that they will make their own interpretation of the law.
(1) Applicants shall take the entire set of theoretical knowledge examinations for a specific licence or rating under the responsibility of one Member State.
- We would in fact have taken all the exams under the responsibility of one Member State.
(c) Validity period ... (too long to put it here)
But this validity period does not mention anything regarding a member state that was in EASA and now it's not (of course, as nobody could predict what is happening)
But, as usual, I expect that the NAAs will put more problems than solutions, and that they will make their own interpretation of the law.
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I wouldn't put money on them being accepted for license issue. License in your hand is a different situation.
They are making it up as they go along. Nothing in the EU regulations was written with a member being able to escape in mind.
Also as well come the day there is going to be loads of very pissed off people scurrying around trying to figure out what the hell to do. A wannbies exams is going to be very low down on their list when the summer season is destroyed for tourists in the med. To be honest this not being sorted now is going to cause huge issues in that respect what ever happens.
Flights from and too the UK are very profitable and are what keep more than a few operators out of bankruptcy.
I would put maximum effort into getting them passed ASAP and your CPL in your hand. After that its just a valid date in your license records.
I don't have a clue what to recommend in relation to when to do the IR, Mty gut instinct is that as soon as the day passes and no deal is done then they might sort something sensible out. If they don't and start on another round of call my bluff I suspect it will be worth delaying getting the IR.
They are making it up as they go along. Nothing in the EU regulations was written with a member being able to escape in mind.
Also as well come the day there is going to be loads of very pissed off people scurrying around trying to figure out what the hell to do. A wannbies exams is going to be very low down on their list when the summer season is destroyed for tourists in the med. To be honest this not being sorted now is going to cause huge issues in that respect what ever happens.
Flights from and too the UK are very profitable and are what keep more than a few operators out of bankruptcy.
I would put maximum effort into getting them passed ASAP and your CPL in your hand. After that its just a valid date in your license records.
I don't have a clue what to recommend in relation to when to do the IR, Mty gut instinct is that as soon as the day passes and no deal is done then they might sort something sensible out. If they don't and start on another round of call my bluff I suspect it will be worth delaying getting the IR.
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But as you said, nobody knows, maybe your aproach is the best solution right now. In a few months who knows.
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I have seen what people have gone through to get type ratings put on there Spanish licenses. In one case it took so long that they had to go and do the LST and circuits again. And there was no change in the paper work during the whole exercise. But to be fair I have seen someone go through nearly the same thing with the UK caa using a German Sim and TRE for a type rating.
What ever the above posters says every CAA is very happy and good bring pilots onto their books for a fee, They all seem to cause issues when transferring out. Germany its impossible apparently won't release medical records. When I transferred mine away from the UK out of 5 of us mine was the first back from UK, Sweden, France, Spain and Greece. I was 7 weeks and the worst was Greece at over 14 weeks. There was mistakes in my records as well showing I had been flying without a valid rating for over a year. Thankfully the Local CAA took the signature on the back of the license and we agreed not to put the old rating on the license. The other guys had similar "mistakes" I presume if I had to get it corrected it would have been another 7 weeks. So I am no fan of the UK CAA either.
So I agree you can only "try" and out smart them but its not guaranteed. You may even get the IR issued no problems then when it comes to get an ATPL issued there is a problem. Hence me suggesting after you get your CPL etc issued you transfer again to the Irish CAA. The more hops then less paper work travels with you. Irish will only get your medical records and a transcript of your valid dates and won't see any paper work from your CPL issue.
This is all personal theory of mine how to play it. I don't have a clue what's going to happen and nobody else does either. Its just how I would play it in your situation.
What ever the above posters says every CAA is very happy and good bring pilots onto their books for a fee, They all seem to cause issues when transferring out. Germany its impossible apparently won't release medical records. When I transferred mine away from the UK out of 5 of us mine was the first back from UK, Sweden, France, Spain and Greece. I was 7 weeks and the worst was Greece at over 14 weeks. There was mistakes in my records as well showing I had been flying without a valid rating for over a year. Thankfully the Local CAA took the signature on the back of the license and we agreed not to put the old rating on the license. The other guys had similar "mistakes" I presume if I had to get it corrected it would have been another 7 weeks. So I am no fan of the UK CAA either.
So I agree you can only "try" and out smart them but its not guaranteed. You may even get the IR issued no problems then when it comes to get an ATPL issued there is a problem. Hence me suggesting after you get your CPL etc issued you transfer again to the Irish CAA. The more hops then less paper work travels with you. Irish will only get your medical records and a transcript of your valid dates and won't see any paper work from your CPL issue.
This is all personal theory of mine how to play it. I don't have a clue what's going to happen and nobody else does either. Its just how I would play it in your situation.
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You may even get the IR issued no problems then when it comes to get an ATPL issued there is a problem.
Someone could easily pass all 14 exams in the UK, obtain a Spanish CPL ME/IR (‘frozen ATPL’) and find a job say at Vueling or Volotea... Great you might say; however few years down the line (say in 3-4 years time), on achieving all the required hours/experience to apply for the full ATPL (to ‘unfreeze’ it), the 14 theoretical exams done in the UK may no longer be valid because as of 30th March 2019 would be a third party Country?!
I hope to be wrong because this could literally shaft many...
Some schools already have arrangements outside UK.....
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Someone could easily pass all 14 exams in the UK, obtain a Spanish CPL ME/IR (‘frozen ATPL’) and find a job say at Vueling or Volotea... Great you might say; however few years down the line (say in 3-4 years time), on achieving all the required hours/experience to apply for the full ATPL (to ‘unfreeze’ it), the 14 theoretical exams done in the UK may no longer be valid because as of 30th March 2019 would be a third party Country?!
I hope to be wrong because this could literally shaft many...
I hope to be wrong because this could literally shaft many...
I think this is quite unlikely. If they do this, they would have to call anyone wich has an UK ATPL exam credit in their license to tell them that they have to resit all exams. They can't just demand to repeat the exams only to some people.
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I think this is quite unlikely. If they do this, they would have to call anyone wich has an UK ATPL exam credit [...]
Remember NAAs aren’t particularly interested where the 14 exams have been done, but they’ll certainly check COMPLIANCE, MARKS and WHEN. Some NAA even state on the actual licence that ATPL examination credits have been passed. If someone has achieved an EASA licence before 30th March 2019 (say a Spainish or Irish one issued with UK theory), that’s totally academic: It’s still a full EASA licence. It would be irrelevant where all the various requirements have been satisfied because all various tests, LSTs/LPCs would have been EASA compliant.
As someone said above licence in your hand is a different situation. However, when coming to upgrading to ATPL you’d have to go through effectively the same process of applying for a new licence: and that means re-checking COMPLIANCE, MARKS and more critically this time WHEN the 14 exams have been passed. And that could be a very grey area.
Don’t get me wrong, i’m not trying to shoot you down. I do sincerely hope common sense prevail as too much for many is at stake here; however considering the caliber of modern politicians and the very limited time left, i’m not very confident... unless of course either the UK make a step back or the EU some sort of concession.
This is a situation where people should plan very carefully and “hope for the best but plan for the worse”...
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For example CAE Oxford have arrangements so that their students can obtain a licence issued by the UK CAA or Belgian CAA or Spanish Authority. No doubts the other ‘big 2’ have got a similar way out
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Regarding TK Credits, examination result notifications explicitly state that they are pertinent to 'EASA Part - FCL' as well as the licence type the examination was for. I can't see that this could be contested provided the UK was an EASA member at the time of the credit.
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The latest I have from the CAA and EASA is to expect business as usual - " there is contingency planning going on in the background but common sense is expected still to prevail – at least in aviation"
phil
phil
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I have good news on this one.
We and some fellow students sent an email to The Mobility And Transport of the EU Commission department a month ago. We recieved the answer and they tell us this:
"We had to get the answer cleared with our legal experts [...] After discussing your case with the relevant experts on our side, we would conclude that if all the theory exams have been completed before the withdrawal date and if the change to another ATO in an EU state is done before the withdrawal date, you will retain your credit for those theory exams for the normal duration of 3 years and may thus complete your training in this other EU Member State.[...]
This answer is without prejudice to any specific provisions that may be included in the Withdrawal Agreement that may be concluded between the UK and the EU, as well as any subsequent arrangement(s) that may entered into. While the content of such agreements remains uncertain all persons concerned are advised to base their decisions on the existing legislation to minimise the chance of disruptions to trainings."
So, of course this email it's not legally binding, but I assume this is the way EU would work if the worst situation of no-deal occurs.
I have to say I'm very hapy and thankfull that the EU commision helped us with this issue, and that they took the time to go through this thoughtfully, revising the case with their legal experts.
We and some fellow students sent an email to The Mobility And Transport of the EU Commission department a month ago. We recieved the answer and they tell us this:
"We had to get the answer cleared with our legal experts [...] After discussing your case with the relevant experts on our side, we would conclude that if all the theory exams have been completed before the withdrawal date and if the change to another ATO in an EU state is done before the withdrawal date, you will retain your credit for those theory exams for the normal duration of 3 years and may thus complete your training in this other EU Member State.[...]
This answer is without prejudice to any specific provisions that may be included in the Withdrawal Agreement that may be concluded between the UK and the EU, as well as any subsequent arrangement(s) that may entered into. While the content of such agreements remains uncertain all persons concerned are advised to base their decisions on the existing legislation to minimise the chance of disruptions to trainings."
So, of course this email it's not legally binding, but I assume this is the way EU would work if the worst situation of no-deal occurs.
I have to say I'm very hapy and thankfull that the EU commision helped us with this issue, and that they took the time to go through this thoughtfully, revising the case with their legal experts.