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APS/APC Advanced MCC/JOC courses

Old 15th Jan 2018, 17:25
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APS/APC Advanced MCC/JOC courses

Hi,

Trying to figure out where best to spend my money for MCC/JOC. My main question is, do you need to do an advanced MCC or does any MCC JOC suffice?

Would there be value doing the RYR APS MCC if its ever brought out?

Or are there better Advanced MCC's out there now?

Let me know what people think, or is all jsut a waste of money paying for a high end one?
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 09:37
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For now, a stand alone MCC is enough as there's no regulatory requirement to complete a JOC course. For what it's worth, the real value is found in who delivers the training rather than the complexity or modernity of the device in my view.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 10:49
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Great, thanks! I heard they're making the JOC part of it mandatory soon, but it isn't at the moment.

If you could do an advanced one that makes it more likely you'll get RYR, worth doing? (presuming they're your target airline).

Are different MCCs better for different airlines? Or as you say, just down to how good the training is?
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 13:36
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MCC used to be enough, so I do NOT Agree.

JOC is the new way of sucking out more money from students pockets, but many airlines demand an MCC JOC Certificate if you want to apply in those companies.

So you NEED an JOC.

You have High End programs with CTC , L3, Simtech, Kura. Those open doors to the better airlines.

There are also cheaper options.

Anyway, once again, in todays time you NEED an JOC in many companies if you want to apply there for a position as FO.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 15:43
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As I said, there is no regulatory requirement under Part-FCL for a JOC course. If you feel adding a JOC to an MCC will enhance your chances of a job, then go ahead.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 12:26
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Ok, so I gotcha about the JOC part of the MCC

But how do people feel that the advanced of APS/APC courses vary from the plain MCC/JOC?

MCC JOC - CRM Europe, Simtech.
Advanced, EPST, KURA, Wings

Worth the extra bit of money? for the extra days in the sim?
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 15:22
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Advanced MCC to cater for Jet operation is an NPA for EASA FCL.

If you can find an Advanced MCC rather than a JOC course I would do it.
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Old 26th Jan 2018, 10:42
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So the Advanced MCCs with 40 hours in the Sim, APS - KURA - Wings - CAE they're all a waste of money?

All we really need is to just do any MCC/JOC? (some here even say we shouldn't do JOC).

Its such a confusing topic, can anyone else help and share their opinions?
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 17:23
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What you need, from a regulatory perspective at present, is an MCC. Any MCC, any crappy old device will do.

But MCC isn't about handling skills, and most JOCs include at least a fair chunk of raw manual flying. Since raw manual flying is highly likely for a selection sim check there is clear benefit in doing one.

Most students are woefully under prepared for the fundamental handling differences between light aircraft and transport category jets.

It may also open a door at some employers.

Coming down the road is the APS requirement that will be a merger of the content of typical MCCs and JOCs.

Some providers are preparing for that by merging their MCC and JOC offerings plus adding the expected APS extras. If you find a course described as 'APS ready' or 'APS compliant' or similar then this effectively means "we intend to use this course as a submission for the APS as soon as it is possible to do so".

Due disclosure: I design and deliver MCC & JOC training as my primary activity.
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Old 3rd Feb 2018, 15:01
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For the uninformed amongst us, what does APS stand for? Is this some sort of new regulation?
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Old 3rd Feb 2018, 16:31
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https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fi...%202016-16.pdf

P23ish onwards
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Old 3rd Feb 2018, 20:46
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Cheers interesting reading!
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Old 4th Feb 2018, 08:16
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Things are about to get a lot more expensive!
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Old 5th Feb 2018, 13:51
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Expensive yes, but why do we get so caught up on the cost here when compared to whats gone infront, its only a fraction.

If the MCC/JOC or APS help you A LOT in getting hired, and having a hope of getting out of debt, isn't it worth it??


Q:

If you had spent 80k. Wanted to go to Ryanair. Could do MCC for 3500. MCCJOC for 5000 or APS for 8000 - What would you do?
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Old 5th Feb 2018, 22:38
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You need to visit the establishments before parting with your hard earned cash.

As Ryanair use a 737 style of simulator, then a similar device must be very useful for your preparation?

Although a basic MCC course may be all that is presently required for your first multi pilot ac, you need more than that if Airbus / Boeing etc is in your sights...
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Old 12th Feb 2018, 06:41
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MCC Feedback

Hi,

I'm looking to get feedback on the best MCC courses. I don't think I can do a poll here?

Can people rank their top 3 (or 5) in choices of where they would (or did) do their MCC in order, and say why they picked number one?

like:

1. CAE
2. CTC
3. FSC

Reason for number one is : They have the best XXXXXXX


Thanks guys, be great to get everyones opinion. I had a thread up before and it didnt get much feedback
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Old 12th Feb 2018, 07:16
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I went to Cardiff aviation, with the initial thought process of it being a full-motion sim, reasonably priced, and I'd probably never fly a real 747. The few reviews I'd found looked great - they are a hidden gem, and the instructors are fantastic with years of experience, and all my sims were done by a 744 TRI. It's a great course, and if you put the effort in and learn the flows and SOP, you'll get a lot out of it. It's not just an attendance course, and although it's not really a technical course, you'll a good idea of what your type rating will be like.

I did the course coming from an instructional background, with a few thousand hours and had a few job options lined up, so I'm not one of the min hours sheep that go to VA just because they have a pretty 738 and fancy graphics, or simtech sausage factory. I also don't believe in such companies "placing" anyone with airline afterwards. In fact, someone I trained paid VA twice (and attended twice) to do an MCC/JOC within weeks of each other, just to be in with a shot at getting a job at Titan. If that's not another mark of how stupid the industry has become, I don't know what is.

My choices were

1. CATL - went there, they were great.
2. VA - offered me a 20% discount, but I decided against it.
3. PTT (formerly multiflight) as I worked there at the time, but they stopped providing MCC.
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Old 12th Feb 2018, 13:01
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I'd like to use this thread to ask a MCC question instead of opening another thread.

I'm in the process of converting an ICAO ME-IR to EASA fATPL ME-IR and I'm trying to budget the MCC if it's really necessary. I've done an MCC in my country in a full motion 737 and I have +500hrs as a copilot in a multi-crew jet.

If I want to work in Europe in an airline eventually will I need to do an MCC again in EASA land? I guess I could expand the question if it's necessary at all unless you want to get a heads up on what a type rating is like?

Thanks
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Old 19th Feb 2018, 01:48
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Originally Posted by sapperkenno View Post

In fact, someone I trained paid VA twice (and attended twice) to do an MCC/JOC within weeks of each other, just to be in with a shot at getting a job at Titan. If that's not another mark of how stupid the industry has become, I don't know what is.
Hi Sapperkenno,

It is unfortunate when somebody has to pay twice for an MCC (We do see our fair share of people coming to us having done an MCC elsewhere).

However, I'm sure the person you trained was pleased they didn't have to pay for the TR with Titan and they already had a job when doing the MCC for the second time?
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 16:42
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Join Date: May 2018
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Hello everyone!

Could you guys please recommend me an MCC/JOC organisation with A320(i prefer full motion but the fnpt2 is just fine too) in Europe(prefer Frankfurt or the UK)? I read about the Cockpit4u, Sky4u and many said the VA and the CRMEurope. Please help me. Thank you.
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