Brymon - This is unfair!
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Brymon - This is unfair!
Although I am not quite ready to go job hunting yet, I keep my eye on the Aviation press.
It upset me to see that in Flight this week Brymon (and the other BA fledglings) were advertising for potential first officers. They wanted type rated pilots first off, naturally enough.
But --
what really got my goat was the fact that they would take un-type rated pilots with over 1000 hours
or graduates from a full time ATPL course.
This STINKS!!
Why should somebody who attended a full time course, necessarily be a better pilot than a modular or self improved CPL/IR with 900 hours.
Somebody who attended a 509 (and good luck to them!) is in the fortunate position to (A) be able to pay the fifty grand and (B) spend a whole year not earning whilst they train for it.
You could also have the situation where a 509 student who scraped through gets a job where a modular student with a greater natural aptitude for flying will not get a look in.
Do Brymon only want rich pilots? - or are they in bed with the training schools.
I hope the situation improves by the time I am fully qualified.
Well thats me bumping my gums enough for now, come on Brymon play fair!
It upset me to see that in Flight this week Brymon (and the other BA fledglings) were advertising for potential first officers. They wanted type rated pilots first off, naturally enough.
But --
what really got my goat was the fact that they would take un-type rated pilots with over 1000 hours
or graduates from a full time ATPL course.
This STINKS!!
Why should somebody who attended a full time course, necessarily be a better pilot than a modular or self improved CPL/IR with 900 hours.
Somebody who attended a 509 (and good luck to them!) is in the fortunate position to (A) be able to pay the fifty grand and (B) spend a whole year not earning whilst they train for it.
You could also have the situation where a 509 student who scraped through gets a job where a modular student with a greater natural aptitude for flying will not get a look in.
Do Brymon only want rich pilots? - or are they in bed with the training schools.
I hope the situation improves by the time I am fully qualified.
Well thats me bumping my gums enough for now, come on Brymon play fair!
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Yeah annoying isn't it (see other thread here and others besides). Just out of interest, Scroggs/WWW (and everyone else) what are your own views on the acceptance of modular courses over time ?
I myself am currently one of the masses on the modular route and firmly believe that modular guys will get jobs (maybe albeit after having instructed for a while to get to near-ish 1000hrs, probably my route anyway), but is it likely this Integrated/Modular perceived difference is going to be bridged over time ?
I know this could probably be debated till the cows come home, and probably has, but in a nutshell, any thoughts ?
Cheers.
I myself am currently one of the masses on the modular route and firmly believe that modular guys will get jobs (maybe albeit after having instructed for a while to get to near-ish 1000hrs, probably my route anyway), but is it likely this Integrated/Modular perceived difference is going to be bridged over time ?
I know this could probably be debated till the cows come home, and probably has, but in a nutshell, any thoughts ?
Cheers.
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WAKE UP one four sick there are not that many jobs out there, most of us cannot be too picky.
I have 1500 hours and would take anything that isn't flying a PA28. Before you ask, OATS 509 graduate.
The job market is still very tough and you need loads of luck to get a job that pays well enough to eat and cover your rent. If I was offered a job by ANY TP airline I would take it!!!!!
I have 1500 hours and would take anything that isn't flying a PA28. Before you ask, OATS 509 graduate.
The job market is still very tough and you need loads of luck to get a job that pays well enough to eat and cover your rent. If I was offered a job by ANY TP airline I would take it!!!!!
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F1
Now you have 1500 hours (as an instructor?) would you say that at graduation and 250 hours you were just as capable?
My point is that I know that I still had to think about flying the aeroplane when I had 250 hours, let alone all the other thought requirement when flying an ILS down to minima on a complex jet aircraft.
With 1000 hours I can fly an ILS without thinking so much, leaving my brain to think of other things like calling for prelanding checks!
When I did my non approved IR, I flew with guys who were at the end of a CAP509 course. You could see that there was a high level of thought going into to the handling side of the flight leaving little spare capacity.
At 1000 hours there is considerably more spare mental capacity.
Having said that, a great number of CAP509ers go onto to medium size jets and perform extremely well. Que faire?
Now you have 1500 hours (as an instructor?) would you say that at graduation and 250 hours you were just as capable?
My point is that I know that I still had to think about flying the aeroplane when I had 250 hours, let alone all the other thought requirement when flying an ILS down to minima on a complex jet aircraft.
With 1000 hours I can fly an ILS without thinking so much, leaving my brain to think of other things like calling for prelanding checks!
When I did my non approved IR, I flew with guys who were at the end of a CAP509 course. You could see that there was a high level of thought going into to the handling side of the flight leaving little spare capacity.
At 1000 hours there is considerably more spare mental capacity.
Having said that, a great number of CAP509ers go onto to medium size jets and perform extremely well. Que faire?
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The difference between a modular course graduate and an integrated course graduate is probably little or nothing in most cases, given training at reputable schools and good continuity. An individual's ability is likely to be far more relevant than the type of course he or she did.
However, it's Brymon's train (plane) set, and it's up to them what minimum qualifications they require. I can understand why their accountants and insurers would want the reassurance of either plenty of hours, or a full-time CAP509 course for their new hires. RHS of a glass, two man cockpit, is a very high pressure place to be when under training in revenue service in very busy airspace. Brymon has a duty of care to their passengers, and they may well feel that this is the best way to discharge that duty. You, of course, may disagree, but you're not employing them - they are employing you (or not).
At your end of the aviation food chain employment is a buyers' market. There aren't that many opportunities with reputable outfits like Brymon, and they are well aware that they can afford to be fairly picky. It's your job to measure up to their requirements (as many of your peers will), not to complain because you don't qualify. Go and get the hours - and do it quickly, because the jobs market is not going to get any better than it is now. In fact, it will get considerably tighter in the next few months.
However, it's Brymon's train (plane) set, and it's up to them what minimum qualifications they require. I can understand why their accountants and insurers would want the reassurance of either plenty of hours, or a full-time CAP509 course for their new hires. RHS of a glass, two man cockpit, is a very high pressure place to be when under training in revenue service in very busy airspace. Brymon has a duty of care to their passengers, and they may well feel that this is the best way to discharge that duty. You, of course, may disagree, but you're not employing them - they are employing you (or not).
At your end of the aviation food chain employment is a buyers' market. There aren't that many opportunities with reputable outfits like Brymon, and they are well aware that they can afford to be fairly picky. It's your job to measure up to their requirements (as many of your peers will), not to complain because you don't qualify. Go and get the hours - and do it quickly, because the jobs market is not going to get any better than it is now. In fact, it will get considerably tighter in the next few months.
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Well said Scroggs! All the time there are more pilots than vacancies, Airlines can afford to be picky and make their own rules and conditions for applicants. It doesn't matter whether whether or not you think it's fair. If you get a job, you'll say it's okay, if you don't you won't. It's tough cheese really.
I would suggest that instead of trying to buck the system, you start to play the game. The airlines won't change, no matter how hard you complain so bite the bullet and get what they ask. If it means that much to you, you'll do it.
Yes, I do work for BACE (EMB-145) but it took me 10 years of effort to find a route to get me here. All I can say is it's worth it, even if the goal posts do move now and then. Chin's up and keep plugging away. I met a couple of chaps today doing their ATP conversions who had done 509 courses at Cabair/OATS in 97 and this is their first airline success, so it's not a guarantee doing a 509er.
I would suggest that instead of trying to buck the system, you start to play the game. The airlines won't change, no matter how hard you complain so bite the bullet and get what they ask. If it means that much to you, you'll do it.
Yes, I do work for BACE (EMB-145) but it took me 10 years of effort to find a route to get me here. All I can say is it's worth it, even if the goal posts do move now and then. Chin's up and keep plugging away. I met a couple of chaps today doing their ATP conversions who had done 509 courses at Cabair/OATS in 97 and this is their first airline success, so it's not a guarantee doing a 509er.
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I believe alot of it down to being at the right place at the right time. I believe I was fortunate to be offered employment by BRAL with 300hours (509) and having completed an FIC rating. However on my type rating they also had employed a guy with also 300hours who did not attend a 509 course. I still firmly believe you can not substitute for experience so the more hours you have the better position you will be in. 
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I may be stupid for mentioning this but could Brymon be taken to court for discrimination against modular candidates? In affect everybody ends up with the same qualifications at the end of their training. This on Brymons part is very similar to commercial businesses or academia only accepting people with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge.
How much of an out cry would this generate if you went for a job in the city and they only wanted people with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge but not from say York, even though you still ended up with the same qualification. This in effect is what Brymon is doing.
At the end of the day people should be take as individuals and not generalized about.
Another question arises about monopolies. Only around 4 flying schools offer full intergrated courses, thus they can almost demand what they want!
How much of an out cry would this generate if you went for a job in the city and they only wanted people with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge but not from say York, even though you still ended up with the same qualification. This in effect is what Brymon is doing.
At the end of the day people should be take as individuals and not generalized about.
Another question arises about monopolies. Only around 4 flying schools offer full intergrated courses, thus they can almost demand what they want!
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Norman,
I am not trying to buck any system.
I am still at least 18 months away from leaving my current profession and trying to getting a flying job.
The point I was trying to raise was for discussion, and discussion can possibly make things fairer over the medium term.
It has got to be wrong that a pilot who could afford to stump up 60000+ pounds is a "good enough" pilot at 250hours whilst a pilot who has paid 30000 pounds at 250 hours (or 850 hours even!)is "not a good enough" pilot.
In fact, whilst I am not sure of the "chapter and verse" aspects, Tarmach has raised an interesting point on the possible legalities of this discrimination.
You say not to moan about things, well I look at the "rumours and news" page quite a lot, so I am just trying to practice moaning so that I am proficient when I am in a RHS.
I am not trying to buck any system.
I am still at least 18 months away from leaving my current profession and trying to getting a flying job.
The point I was trying to raise was for discussion, and discussion can possibly make things fairer over the medium term.
It has got to be wrong that a pilot who could afford to stump up 60000+ pounds is a "good enough" pilot at 250hours whilst a pilot who has paid 30000 pounds at 250 hours (or 850 hours even!)is "not a good enough" pilot.
In fact, whilst I am not sure of the "chapter and verse" aspects, Tarmach has raised an interesting point on the possible legalities of this discrimination.
You say not to moan about things, well I look at the "rumours and news" page quite a lot, so I am just trying to practice moaning so that I am proficient when I am in a RHS.
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Tarmach, I think you will find that an employer can specify any qualifications he wants, as long as they don't discriminate by race, sex or religion. 'Discrimination' by age or qualification is perfectly legal, if there is a good reason for it. Flight safety is a good reason.
Your hypothetical example of a city employer is not a good one; you'll find that they do discriminate by business school and MBA provider. Note that no airline specifies which school you should have gone to, just what qualifications you should have before applying. The fact that only a few schools offer integrated courses isn't the airlines' fault. It would be different if BA (in this case) owned the school(s) concerned.
The bottom line is that in BA's opinion (and experience), the recent graduate from an integrated course is more likely to pass their demanding training than a low-hour modular graduate, hence the insistence on the (still low) hours for modular candidates. You are wasting your time and energy complaining about it; many airlines (including mine) insist on far greater hours and experience before they will offer even the opportunity to apply. This is not a charity for wannabes, it is hard-nosed business. If you want to get in, you jump through the airlines'hoops - and you knew what they were before you started. As I said in an earlier post, do it soon, because it will get much more difficult as the industry starts winding in its recruiting as the slowdown begins to really bite. Don't be surprised to see 1500 hours being asked for - if any recruits are wanted at all - in 6 months to a year's time.
I'm not trying to put you off, but you do need to be realistic about both your task in making yourself employable, and the airlines' right to employ whoever they want.
Your hypothetical example of a city employer is not a good one; you'll find that they do discriminate by business school and MBA provider. Note that no airline specifies which school you should have gone to, just what qualifications you should have before applying. The fact that only a few schools offer integrated courses isn't the airlines' fault. It would be different if BA (in this case) owned the school(s) concerned.
The bottom line is that in BA's opinion (and experience), the recent graduate from an integrated course is more likely to pass their demanding training than a low-hour modular graduate, hence the insistence on the (still low) hours for modular candidates. You are wasting your time and energy complaining about it; many airlines (including mine) insist on far greater hours and experience before they will offer even the opportunity to apply. This is not a charity for wannabes, it is hard-nosed business. If you want to get in, you jump through the airlines'hoops - and you knew what they were before you started. As I said in an earlier post, do it soon, because it will get much more difficult as the industry starts winding in its recruiting as the slowdown begins to really bite. Don't be surprised to see 1500 hours being asked for - if any recruits are wanted at all - in 6 months to a year's time.
I'm not trying to put you off, but you do need to be realistic about both your task in making yourself employable, and the airlines' right to employ whoever they want.
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Scroggs
Whilst there is little point fighting a system that isn't likley to change because we moan, doesn't mean to say that we should lay down and accept it wihtout comment.
The truth is that Gazeem an others have a perfectly legitimate complaint in that discrimination is being practised by certain airlines. In reality we must jump through their hoops, but whilst this discrimination may not be unlawful, the whole culture that this website has fostered over the years is being demonstrated here on this thread. It is a legitimate comment from Gazeem and others and one which should be treated with support rather than patronizing impatience.
As a an airline pilot, I would be inclined to look within yourself as to your suitability for the job of moderator on a Wannabes forum.
Wannabes need support. They don't need to be put in their place.
Whilst there is little point fighting a system that isn't likley to change because we moan, doesn't mean to say that we should lay down and accept it wihtout comment.
The truth is that Gazeem an others have a perfectly legitimate complaint in that discrimination is being practised by certain airlines. In reality we must jump through their hoops, but whilst this discrimination may not be unlawful, the whole culture that this website has fostered over the years is being demonstrated here on this thread. It is a legitimate comment from Gazeem and others and one which should be treated with support rather than patronizing impatience.
As a an airline pilot, I would be inclined to look within yourself as to your suitability for the job of moderator on a Wannabes forum.
Wannabes need support. They don't need to be put in their place.
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If the airlines reckon that 509ers are more likely to pass training than a modular route pilot they have rocks in their head.
It seems like all the people I talk to who have got their first airline job with low hours are 509ers. It's not like a 509er learns SOP's etc and jet famil. in their course.
I think modular guys (and 509ers for that matter) should put together a letter to these airline(s) to be treated fairly in the selection process. It is totally UNREASONABLE to be asking such a huge gap between experience levels because of course type. Everyone IS on a level playing field below 500 hours I reckon. Next thing they'll be asking for 509 course OR 1000 hours jet time together with 7 apollo lunar landings and 4 space shuttle re-entries... get serious!
[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: v1rotate ]
It seems like all the people I talk to who have got their first airline job with low hours are 509ers. It's not like a 509er learns SOP's etc and jet famil. in their course.
I think modular guys (and 509ers for that matter) should put together a letter to these airline(s) to be treated fairly in the selection process. It is totally UNREASONABLE to be asking such a huge gap between experience levels because of course type. Everyone IS on a level playing field below 500 hours I reckon. Next thing they'll be asking for 509 course OR 1000 hours jet time together with 7 apollo lunar landings and 4 space shuttle re-entries... get serious!
[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: v1rotate ]
Ivan,
I think Scroggs is an ideal moderator, because he gives this forum a much needed reality check from time to time.
Whilst I don't personally agree with what Brymon are doing, they are far from the only ones. Just think of all that talent they are missing out on!
Anyway my mob are the same, but at least we do make exceptions.
I think Scroggs is an ideal moderator, because he gives this forum a much needed reality check from time to time.
Whilst I don't personally agree with what Brymon are doing, they are far from the only ones. Just think of all that talent they are missing out on!
Anyway my mob are the same, but at least we do make exceptions.
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After reading this thread I do think Scroggs was right to insert the reality check and I certainly support him as being a good knowledgeable moderator.
Remember the pilot shortage, as I've heard again and again, is of type-rated pilots with 1000's hours experience. Ok this *may* spur on more sponsorship schemes but, in my opinion, will probably spark a package war where airlines try to tempt crews from other airlines. Its a stupid sounding thing like that that'll probably happen.
From what I have looked at, I would personally go for the integrated approach due to the college-like atmos which will make you work like crazed students with a learning complex. I would only go for a modular route if I could run through it in an integrated type timescale. For any type of learning, repetition in a small time scale reinforces the knowledge in your brain and this is what the airlines may also think; perhaps thats why they favour integrated.
BUT, even if I had trained modular I would still apply; give them a call and discuss the situation, there maybe some flexibility and you shouldn't draw the line at the advert.
Regards
SS
BTW: Remember what the Gulf War did to airline sponsorships at the time, the market just died overnight! Now think what may happen if the trouble in the middle-east really does spark and end up involving our forces...
[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: skysoarer ]
Remember the pilot shortage, as I've heard again and again, is of type-rated pilots with 1000's hours experience. Ok this *may* spur on more sponsorship schemes but, in my opinion, will probably spark a package war where airlines try to tempt crews from other airlines. Its a stupid sounding thing like that that'll probably happen.
From what I have looked at, I would personally go for the integrated approach due to the college-like atmos which will make you work like crazed students with a learning complex. I would only go for a modular route if I could run through it in an integrated type timescale. For any type of learning, repetition in a small time scale reinforces the knowledge in your brain and this is what the airlines may also think; perhaps thats why they favour integrated.
BUT, even if I had trained modular I would still apply; give them a call and discuss the situation, there maybe some flexibility and you shouldn't draw the line at the advert.
Regards
SS
BTW: Remember what the Gulf War did to airline sponsorships at the time, the market just died overnight! Now think what may happen if the trouble in the middle-east really does spark and end up involving our forces...
[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: skysoarer ]
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Ivan,
if you have a complaint against my style of moderating, you can of course complain to [email protected] (Capt Pprune) and raise your objections with him. If sufficient people did likewise, and with good rationale, Danny would have to consider withdrawing the Whip from me.
However, if your objection is that you don't like the message I bring, then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong creek. The fact that you don't like the message is no reason to shoot the messenger, as long as the messenger reports the truth. I do. The world is never ideal, and aviation is no exception to that rule. You would rather I told you that everything is wonderful, that all wannabes will make it, and that all airlines will be eternally grateful that you've put your financial lives on the line for them? Dream on, mate, because it's not gonna come from me.
You guys are all very good at supporting each other with the required platitudes when necessary; you don't need me to do that. I will guide, advise and opine when I am asked to and, unfortunately for you, when I'm not. What I won't do is bull**** you. If you want a yes-man for a moderator, you won't find him here.
So, you have to learn to deal with the real world. As I said in my first post on this thread, there is no real difference between a modular course graduate and an integrated course graduate - or, at least, there shouldn't be. However, that's patently not the way some airlines see it, and it's more than likely their experience that's brought them to that judgement. That, for you, is tough. You have the choice of doing whatever that airline requires (if you wish to work for them), or of going somewhere else. You can try an emotional outburst against the airline in question if you wish, and I fully acknowledge the therapeutic value of doing that here, but it won't make any difference.
You all have to realise that to change the world, you have to be in charge, or in a majority. You aren't now, but one day you might be. When that day comes, remember what your problems were when you started.........
V1rotate.
Interesting post. What statistics and experience do you have to back up your claims? Would you suggest that your opinion is more valid than your potential employers' collective experience? Or perhaps would you accept (until you have proof otherwise) that they have a reasonable idea of who they want and why.
[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]
if you have a complaint against my style of moderating, you can of course complain to [email protected] (Capt Pprune) and raise your objections with him. If sufficient people did likewise, and with good rationale, Danny would have to consider withdrawing the Whip from me.
However, if your objection is that you don't like the message I bring, then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong creek. The fact that you don't like the message is no reason to shoot the messenger, as long as the messenger reports the truth. I do. The world is never ideal, and aviation is no exception to that rule. You would rather I told you that everything is wonderful, that all wannabes will make it, and that all airlines will be eternally grateful that you've put your financial lives on the line for them? Dream on, mate, because it's not gonna come from me.
You guys are all very good at supporting each other with the required platitudes when necessary; you don't need me to do that. I will guide, advise and opine when I am asked to and, unfortunately for you, when I'm not. What I won't do is bull**** you. If you want a yes-man for a moderator, you won't find him here.
So, you have to learn to deal with the real world. As I said in my first post on this thread, there is no real difference between a modular course graduate and an integrated course graduate - or, at least, there shouldn't be. However, that's patently not the way some airlines see it, and it's more than likely their experience that's brought them to that judgement. That, for you, is tough. You have the choice of doing whatever that airline requires (if you wish to work for them), or of going somewhere else. You can try an emotional outburst against the airline in question if you wish, and I fully acknowledge the therapeutic value of doing that here, but it won't make any difference.
You all have to realise that to change the world, you have to be in charge, or in a majority. You aren't now, but one day you might be. When that day comes, remember what your problems were when you started.........
V1rotate.
Interesting post. What statistics and experience do you have to back up your claims? Would you suggest that your opinion is more valid than your potential employers' collective experience? Or perhaps would you accept (until you have proof otherwise) that they have a reasonable idea of who they want and why.
[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]
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Scroggs,
I take on board the comments and issues that you have made. However in your first post you mention an employer can specify any qualifications he wants. But thats it though! Both 509's and modular students finish with the same qualifications. True the only difference is the time span and a few hours different. Providing the modular chap hasn't taken 20 years to complete his training; its rather academic, isn't it!
Airlines haven't made this decision in light of flight safety but rather for financial reasons because they perceive the 509er to be more competent and easier to train etc.
Yes I'm aware that discrimination does indeed take place by business school and MBA provider, but does this take place 'openly', or by the 'old boys network' of Oxbridge and Eton etc? I think there would be an outcry if a job was advertised asking only for Oxbridge graduates, although I agree this does take place behind 'closed doors'!
In a way the airlines by asking for 509's are pushing business to only one of four flying schools which offer intergrated courses.
I believe both 509 and modular candidates should be treated equally, and then selected on merit from the sim ride!
v1 rotate,
Would a bit of DIY on the MIR space station count?
The only way to change the system is to complain about it and to speak your mind. If enough people do this it will change!
I take on board the comments and issues that you have made. However in your first post you mention an employer can specify any qualifications he wants. But thats it though! Both 509's and modular students finish with the same qualifications. True the only difference is the time span and a few hours different. Providing the modular chap hasn't taken 20 years to complete his training; its rather academic, isn't it!
Airlines haven't made this decision in light of flight safety but rather for financial reasons because they perceive the 509er to be more competent and easier to train etc.
Yes I'm aware that discrimination does indeed take place by business school and MBA provider, but does this take place 'openly', or by the 'old boys network' of Oxbridge and Eton etc? I think there would be an outcry if a job was advertised asking only for Oxbridge graduates, although I agree this does take place behind 'closed doors'!
In a way the airlines by asking for 509's are pushing business to only one of four flying schools which offer intergrated courses.
I believe both 509 and modular candidates should be treated equally, and then selected on merit from the sim ride!
v1 rotate,
Would a bit of DIY on the MIR space station count?
The only way to change the system is to complain about it and to speak your mind. If enough people do this it will change!