Brymon - This is unfair!
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I guess it wasn't standard business practice to employ women on the flight deck 25 years ago; however that changed due to women's rights etc!
They are not discriminating over training but how much you have in your bank account.
In away its like going to work for someone but having to pay the manager's best mate £60K so you can have the job! This is what Brymon is doing by almost forcing people (who want a job with them with low hours)to opt for the intergrated route.
Well two of those training colleges who run intergrated courses already have big contracts with BA, well theres a surprise!! The conclusion is; it works very nicely for OATs and BAe by providing them with business.
This stuff about having the right qualifications is utter nonsense. Excuse me, but is there a different ATPL/IR for the modular course and a different one for the intergrated course?
Perhaps the modular ATPL/IR licence cover comes in pink? I'm not sure?!
Someone in a previous post mentioned if they want degree pilots, you must get a degree. However, Brymon want pilots with Frozen ATPLs/IRs, well thats what we're giving them, regardless of the type of course. Its not as if any of us are trying to apply to them with a mere PPL!
They are not discriminating over training but how much you have in your bank account.
In away its like going to work for someone but having to pay the manager's best mate £60K so you can have the job! This is what Brymon is doing by almost forcing people (who want a job with them with low hours)to opt for the intergrated route.
Well two of those training colleges who run intergrated courses already have big contracts with BA, well theres a surprise!! The conclusion is; it works very nicely for OATs and BAe by providing them with business.
This stuff about having the right qualifications is utter nonsense. Excuse me, but is there a different ATPL/IR for the modular course and a different one for the intergrated course?
Perhaps the modular ATPL/IR licence cover comes in pink? I'm not sure?!
Someone in a previous post mentioned if they want degree pilots, you must get a degree. However, Brymon want pilots with Frozen ATPLs/IRs, well thats what we're giving them, regardless of the type of course. Its not as if any of us are trying to apply to them with a mere PPL!
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Token Bird, Tarmach,
I totally agree with your points.
As I said earlier I am at least 18 months away from looking for a job, and at that time I will jump through what ever hoops that are put in frount of me.
In the meantime I will continue to promote discussion on the topic (aka whinging to the high and mighty).
If there is statistical evidence that 509ers pick things up quicker, maybe this can be explained through demography not the course.
I may be wrong, please prove me so, but I suspect the throughput of integrated courses is younger than the guys who are coming up the modular route.
I suspect - again no hard facts - this is because these people have been supported by parents, OR do not have the financial responsibilities of a family or a mortgage.
Therefore I believe that younger people may be demonstrated to acquire new skills quicker.
Of course, we take the realistic views of those people within the industry, but things can change in time.
This is the forum for such debate.
EM PE so I am churlish for whinging?
As Tarmach pointed out without discussion there would have been no change.
As I said earlier I look at "Rumours and News" and I am just trying to get a few hours whinging P.u/t in!
[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Gazeem ]
I totally agree with your points.
As I said earlier I am at least 18 months away from looking for a job, and at that time I will jump through what ever hoops that are put in frount of me.
In the meantime I will continue to promote discussion on the topic (aka whinging to the high and mighty).
If there is statistical evidence that 509ers pick things up quicker, maybe this can be explained through demography not the course.
I may be wrong, please prove me so, but I suspect the throughput of integrated courses is younger than the guys who are coming up the modular route.
I suspect - again no hard facts - this is because these people have been supported by parents, OR do not have the financial responsibilities of a family or a mortgage.
Therefore I believe that younger people may be demonstrated to acquire new skills quicker.
Of course, we take the realistic views of those people within the industry, but things can change in time.
This is the forum for such debate.
EM PE so I am churlish for whinging?
As Tarmach pointed out without discussion there would have been no change.
As I said earlier I look at "Rumours and News" and I am just trying to get a few hours whinging P.u/t in!
[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Gazeem ]
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Scroggs, I belive that the ex cadets are going to the classic fleet to "consolidate their training". The theory being that they will get more hands on flying to BGI than lying in a bunk on the way to HKG.Best of luck to them. Having just done 2 years on the SUN 320's, I wouldn't fancy the classic conversion course.
Everyone else:Scroggs and others are correct.The whole business is market driven.There is a deal of luck involved although you can influence it by keeping at it in a realistic sense.If you've got 250 hrs, its no use pestering Virgin or BA for a heavy jet job.As an ex Upgrader(Circa 1995)I have a lot of sympathy with the guys who feel excluded,however its Brymons ball and they can take it home if they want.I had something similar happen when goalposts where moved back then.Just as I was starting to despair, it all came right from a totally unexpected direction.The moral is to keep at it and be flexible, it will happen when you least expect it!
The market is good at the moment, however the progression to long haul takes time and experience.Long haul flying offers little hands on and you may only do one or two landings a month on some fleets.For that reason,plus insurance considerations,long haul operators such as Virgin like you to have had a solid base of experience to draw on so that you can pull off a tricky non precision approach into Congo Bongo International after 11 hours in darkness and still have a bit of spare capacity.Theres no short cut I'm afraid.Its taken me six years working up from T/P to 320 to 340.
Stick at it guys and gals.Brymon isn't the only operator and as soon as they need folk in a hurry the requirements will change.
All the best.NB.
Everyone else:Scroggs and others are correct.The whole business is market driven.There is a deal of luck involved although you can influence it by keeping at it in a realistic sense.If you've got 250 hrs, its no use pestering Virgin or BA for a heavy jet job.As an ex Upgrader(Circa 1995)I have a lot of sympathy with the guys who feel excluded,however its Brymons ball and they can take it home if they want.I had something similar happen when goalposts where moved back then.Just as I was starting to despair, it all came right from a totally unexpected direction.The moral is to keep at it and be flexible, it will happen when you least expect it!
The market is good at the moment, however the progression to long haul takes time and experience.Long haul flying offers little hands on and you may only do one or two landings a month on some fleets.For that reason,plus insurance considerations,long haul operators such as Virgin like you to have had a solid base of experience to draw on so that you can pull off a tricky non precision approach into Congo Bongo International after 11 hours in darkness and still have a bit of spare capacity.Theres no short cut I'm afraid.Its taken me six years working up from T/P to 320 to 340.
Stick at it guys and gals.Brymon isn't the only operator and as soon as they need folk in a hurry the requirements will change.
All the best.NB.
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Generally there seems to be 2 sides to this discussion.
1) What are Brymon doing laying down entry requirements such as these?
2) They are the employer so they can demand what the hell they want.
Both sides are quite understandable. Scroggs has said:
This is why 1) has arisen.
Now this opinion has presumably been formed from historical analysis, when people would have been on the old 'self-improver' route.
Re 2) - If I was the CP of a company with this knowledge then of course I would want to minimise my risk (read maximise long term growth/profit) for the company. The lack of need to process 100's of additional CV's therefore would be quite justified and the ad would be appropriate.
However the new JAA modular route is addressing the concerns of the previous system. Namely, in some cases people could scrape through the course taking for ever at a non-approved FTO, and some of them may not have been taught to the same standard/or be as current as a 509'er would be.
The problem is that industry has not seen nearly enough of these JAA Modular folk to form an opinion any different from their current one.
If this does happen then we should not see adverts like this in a couple of years time plus. However, if we still do, then it can be concluded that the industry is still short of respect for the qualification, and in which case there is an argument that it should not be offered at all, as it is of little use.
Speaking from within my current position, I personally feel that somebody who has 250 hours from the modular route would be a better choice than a 509'er.
I remember when at University having an informal chat with the admissions tutor for our course. It went along the line of number of (A level) points needed for entry. If a public school candidate had the same number of points as the 6th form college student (all other things being equal) the the college person won the place. This was because in the University's experience the person who had worked off their own back was less likely to drop out that the person who was continually spoon fed/kicked up their @rse.
I suspect as somebody else mentioned the demography of what type/age of people took which course had a great deal to do with the situation rather than the course content itself.
Not that any of that is going to help you folk with JAA Modular ATPL's I know, but it is just a little something to chew on.
No apparently 750 hours blasting a hole in the US skies in a C152 will get you an application form, and make you more trainable, because of course you will then be far less likely to have learned bad habits than when you had 250 hours
.
However folks there is no point in bitching, as it will not change the situation. I bet the Oxford marketeers et al must be in heaven reading this!
1) What are Brymon doing laying down entry requirements such as these?
2) They are the employer so they can demand what the hell they want.
Both sides are quite understandable. Scroggs has said:
The bottom line is that in BA's opinion (and experience), the recent graduate from an integrated course is more likely to pass their demanding training than a low-hour modular graduate, hence the insistence on the (still low) hours for modular candidates.
Now this opinion has presumably been formed from historical analysis, when people would have been on the old 'self-improver' route.
Re 2) - If I was the CP of a company with this knowledge then of course I would want to minimise my risk (read maximise long term growth/profit) for the company. The lack of need to process 100's of additional CV's therefore would be quite justified and the ad would be appropriate.
However the new JAA modular route is addressing the concerns of the previous system. Namely, in some cases people could scrape through the course taking for ever at a non-approved FTO, and some of them may not have been taught to the same standard/or be as current as a 509'er would be.
The problem is that industry has not seen nearly enough of these JAA Modular folk to form an opinion any different from their current one.
If this does happen then we should not see adverts like this in a couple of years time plus. However, if we still do, then it can be concluded that the industry is still short of respect for the qualification, and in which case there is an argument that it should not be offered at all, as it is of little use.
Speaking from within my current position, I personally feel that somebody who has 250 hours from the modular route would be a better choice than a 509'er.
I remember when at University having an informal chat with the admissions tutor for our course. It went along the line of number of (A level) points needed for entry. If a public school candidate had the same number of points as the 6th form college student (all other things being equal) the the college person won the place. This was because in the University's experience the person who had worked off their own back was less likely to drop out that the person who was continually spoon fed/kicked up their @rse.
I suspect as somebody else mentioned the demography of what type/age of people took which course had a great deal to do with the situation rather than the course content itself.
Not that any of that is going to help you folk with JAA Modular ATPL's I know, but it is just a little something to chew on.
No apparently 750 hours blasting a hole in the US skies in a C152 will get you an application form, and make you more trainable, because of course you will then be far less likely to have learned bad habits than when you had 250 hours
.However folks there is no point in bitching, as it will not change the situation. I bet the Oxford marketeers et al must be in heaven reading this!
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Why not ask the CAA. They invented it, most airlines like it. However, potential students have a problem either paying now £60000 or the cheaper alternative. If you can afford it pay it. The level playing field comes down to cost not ability. I am a 509 graduate, I have seen many a poor pilot sponsored and non sponsored. However, I feel the cream always rises to the top eventually.
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I think many of you are missing the point here. We're not arguing about the minimum qualifications to work for Brymon (or whomever), we're arguing about the minimum qualifications to apply for a job. While they may say that integrated course graduates with 250 hours may apply, when contrasted with a similar-aged graduate of a modular course with 1000 useful and relevant hours, it's very debatable who would get the job. Look at it this way; they want FATPL holders with 1000+ hours. To make sure they're not missing out on the best graduates of the integrated courses (who are in demand by many of the airlines), they allow recent graduates to apply also. Does that make you feel better? I hope so, but it makes no difference to your task - to get those hours.
To those who think Brymon will regret this when they need lots of pilots, just what planet are you on? The pilot job market has never been better than it is now. Qualification requirements are lower than they've ever been, which doesn't please the airlines or their insurers - or their training departments. This is not going to last. In a year's time, hours requirements will be creeping up. If ever there is a direct equivalence between integrated and modular graduates, it is likely be at a higher number of hours, say 1000, with certain other requirements, like say 300 hours multi. You have it now as good (for you) as it's ever been, and yet you want it easier! Sometimes you guys don't know you're born.
Surely a far more productive argument would be to try and persuade the UK airline industry to open a sponsored aviation academy to cover, say, a constant 50% of the good-time entry-level employment numbers. That would ensure that it wouldn't have to close in the inevitable bad times. On top of that, there should be tax breaks for those who can't attend this academy, similar to any that might apply to, say, mature students of law or medicine. Now that, it seems to me, would be a worthwhile project. Forget complaining because you can't get a Brymon job with 250 hours. I doubt anyone else will, either.
To those who think Brymon will regret this when they need lots of pilots, just what planet are you on? The pilot job market has never been better than it is now. Qualification requirements are lower than they've ever been, which doesn't please the airlines or their insurers - or their training departments. This is not going to last. In a year's time, hours requirements will be creeping up. If ever there is a direct equivalence between integrated and modular graduates, it is likely be at a higher number of hours, say 1000, with certain other requirements, like say 300 hours multi. You have it now as good (for you) as it's ever been, and yet you want it easier! Sometimes you guys don't know you're born.
Surely a far more productive argument would be to try and persuade the UK airline industry to open a sponsored aviation academy to cover, say, a constant 50% of the good-time entry-level employment numbers. That would ensure that it wouldn't have to close in the inevitable bad times. On top of that, there should be tax breaks for those who can't attend this academy, similar to any that might apply to, say, mature students of law or medicine. Now that, it seems to me, would be a worthwhile project. Forget complaining because you can't get a Brymon job with 250 hours. I doubt anyone else will, either.
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Greener,
I hope that comment you made about public school graduates was not your own opinion. As far as I know, we had to do exams and study just the same as a person at 6th form college. We weren't handed the exam answers beforehand!
TB
I hope that comment you made about public school graduates was not your own opinion. As far as I know, we had to do exams and study just the same as a person at 6th form college. We weren't handed the exam answers beforehand!
TB
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Scroggs, I fully understand what you are saying. Many of us realise that we would have very little chance will 250 hours, compared to the X000 hour pilots who will be applying to this or any other job.
For me this direct argument is not that relevant, as I have neither a modular nor full time ATPL at this time. However, I along with many others have heard the schools say it does not matter a damn which path you take, a licence is a licence, blah blah blah.
If they want 500, 5000 hours or whatever then so be it, I for one am not complaining at that, after all they are the employer! What Brymon and maybe others to come are saying is “We do not hold the modular course in such high esteem as the 509ers”.
For somebody such as myself who is in the position to choose either type of course at present this concept needs serious thought. I would be most interested in your opinion what the industry view would be in the future, as I believe you, WWW and other current commercial pilots are best placed to answer that.
I essentially am looking for minimum long-term debt, not simply the cheapest route to a licence.
Moving on to TB – hi there! No those opinions were not my view at all. That was the actual selection method used within our dept. at University that the admissions guy told me directly. I just thought that somebody else would like to comment on that line, as it seems the self-study route is not well appreciated within aviation.
However my views are that managing to pass these JAA exams with a full time job shows exceptional commitment to the cause, and for that reason I was using the Uni example to maybe validate that viewpoint. I realise that we all have to pass the same sets of exams at A-level, ATPL, and ultimately you need to be good enough period.
To sum up in one line, I would prefer to go modular, but do not wish to make even harder work for myself at the end. I am sure there are many others in this situation.
For me this direct argument is not that relevant, as I have neither a modular nor full time ATPL at this time. However, I along with many others have heard the schools say it does not matter a damn which path you take, a licence is a licence, blah blah blah.
If they want 500, 5000 hours or whatever then so be it, I for one am not complaining at that, after all they are the employer! What Brymon and maybe others to come are saying is “We do not hold the modular course in such high esteem as the 509ers”.
For somebody such as myself who is in the position to choose either type of course at present this concept needs serious thought. I would be most interested in your opinion what the industry view would be in the future, as I believe you, WWW and other current commercial pilots are best placed to answer that.
I essentially am looking for minimum long-term debt, not simply the cheapest route to a licence.
Moving on to TB – hi there! No those opinions were not my view at all. That was the actual selection method used within our dept. at University that the admissions guy told me directly. I just thought that somebody else would like to comment on that line, as it seems the self-study route is not well appreciated within aviation.
However my views are that managing to pass these JAA exams with a full time job shows exceptional commitment to the cause, and for that reason I was using the Uni example to maybe validate that viewpoint. I realise that we all have to pass the same sets of exams at A-level, ATPL, and ultimately you need to be good enough period.
To sum up in one line, I would prefer to go modular, but do not wish to make even harder work for myself at the end. I am sure there are many others in this situation.
RIGHT. I have stayed out of this thread for a long time because a) I got sick to death of the self-improver versus CAP509 debate about 4 years ago here and b) Scroggs can well stick up for himself.
However.
I am annoyed by people such as Ivan having a pop at Scroggs and this forum - sometimes you Wannabes need a dose of reality and when a long haul airline ex-RAF pilot takes the time to give it to you when he has a 1,000 better things to do with his time you should be grateful and not carping and complaining.
Nuff said.
I am a self-improver who got his airline job at 1,500hrs light aircraft time and I also taught several self sponsored "509" students and airline cadets (Aer Lingus/Airtours) to fly. There is a huge overlap between the two camps:
The worst airline cadets are are rubbish and the best self sponsored guys are brilliant. Fact, unfair, frustrating but true. You would wonder why some guys got turned down and marvel at how others got hired. Its a lottery OK. Accept it. Lifes not fair after all.
As regards Modular vs Integrated training its not much of a muchness and in time I believe the old hangover - and thats what is, convenient shorthand for time pressed chief pilots - of either 509 or 1000hr+ will dissapear. There is little difference in the training or ability of both systems given the same quality of initial student.
The market for new hire commercial pilots is fantastic.
Two of my good friend students from last year have both got jobs in the last 4 weeks after only very limited searching. I have NEVER known the market to be so good as it is at present.
Therefore you can expect it to detiorate soon as its got nowhere left to go.
Unfortunately few of you remember the early 90's where guys were turning up at the local flying school asking for ad hoc work with 1000's of turboprop hours under their belt and several years of instructing experience.
At the time BA were asking for 3,000hrs experience on one of the types they operated just to apply for direct entry. Now its 500hrs experience over a certain weight equating to a lot of heavy turboprops. And they are finding people are walking away from them when they eventually do offer them a job from the holding pool...
Brymon are a fine fine outfit to work for and it is no use moaning about their requirements. Hell, its easier now than ever to pick up a job that will give you the hours required to apply...
Wannabes need to realise that its very easy to p1ss people off in the industry with your ambition to be flying a jet airliner. Lots of the guys went through the lean years or paid their dues in the air taxi/military/regional business to get where they are today and when they hear someone moaning because a well established scheduled passenger airline doesn't quite meet their appication minima is galling to say the least.
Tack and dimplomacy chaps is 80% of CRM and its a skill that some of you need to develop.
That said this is forum for Joe Wannabe and its fair enough if you want to let of steam. Just expect a bit of steam back at you and value it if you have any sense.
Good luck,
WWW
[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]
However.
I am annoyed by people such as Ivan having a pop at Scroggs and this forum - sometimes you Wannabes need a dose of reality and when a long haul airline ex-RAF pilot takes the time to give it to you when he has a 1,000 better things to do with his time you should be grateful and not carping and complaining.
Nuff said.
I am a self-improver who got his airline job at 1,500hrs light aircraft time and I also taught several self sponsored "509" students and airline cadets (Aer Lingus/Airtours) to fly. There is a huge overlap between the two camps:
The worst airline cadets are are rubbish and the best self sponsored guys are brilliant. Fact, unfair, frustrating but true. You would wonder why some guys got turned down and marvel at how others got hired. Its a lottery OK. Accept it. Lifes not fair after all.
As regards Modular vs Integrated training its not much of a muchness and in time I believe the old hangover - and thats what is, convenient shorthand for time pressed chief pilots - of either 509 or 1000hr+ will dissapear. There is little difference in the training or ability of both systems given the same quality of initial student.
The market for new hire commercial pilots is fantastic.
Two of my good friend students from last year have both got jobs in the last 4 weeks after only very limited searching. I have NEVER known the market to be so good as it is at present.
Therefore you can expect it to detiorate soon as its got nowhere left to go.
Unfortunately few of you remember the early 90's where guys were turning up at the local flying school asking for ad hoc work with 1000's of turboprop hours under their belt and several years of instructing experience.
At the time BA were asking for 3,000hrs experience on one of the types they operated just to apply for direct entry. Now its 500hrs experience over a certain weight equating to a lot of heavy turboprops. And they are finding people are walking away from them when they eventually do offer them a job from the holding pool...
Brymon are a fine fine outfit to work for and it is no use moaning about their requirements. Hell, its easier now than ever to pick up a job that will give you the hours required to apply...
Wannabes need to realise that its very easy to p1ss people off in the industry with your ambition to be flying a jet airliner. Lots of the guys went through the lean years or paid their dues in the air taxi/military/regional business to get where they are today and when they hear someone moaning because a well established scheduled passenger airline doesn't quite meet their appication minima is galling to say the least.
Tack and dimplomacy chaps is 80% of CRM and its a skill that some of you need to develop.
That said this is forum for Joe Wannabe and its fair enough if you want to let of steam. Just expect a bit of steam back at you and value it if you have any sense.
Good luck,
WWW
[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]
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Jolly well said you small rodent like celt.
It seems to me that some people have a problem accepting responsibility for their own actions.
Some choose modular, some choose CAP509 and we all should have been aware of potential pit falls and pratfalls before making such major decisions. Its called research!
And if you dont have the money to choose one particular route then either wait untill you have or accept the fact that you may get the sort of response that Citiexpress are giving.
Some airlines prefer Modular over CAP509. Its there money, its their training risk, so its their choice.
It seems to me that some people have a problem accepting responsibility for their own actions.
Some choose modular, some choose CAP509 and we all should have been aware of potential pit falls and pratfalls before making such major decisions. Its called research!
And if you dont have the money to choose one particular route then either wait untill you have or accept the fact that you may get the sort of response that Citiexpress are giving.
Some airlines prefer Modular over CAP509. Its there money, its their training risk, so its their choice.
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Minuteman,
this is a bit off-thread, but this is my take on the situation.
A few years ago Virgin took on 10 A340s in fairly quick order. There weren't enough sufficiently qualified pilots around (that old story...!) to fully man the ultra-long-haul routes that need one or even two relief pilots as full-blown first officers, so they decided to recruit a number of second officers (or 'cruise pilots') with much less experience to occupy a seat during those interminable hours over Russia.
Of course, these guys had to do the full CAA ARB course on the aircraft, and needed extra sim and base training time in many cases. Once on the line, these chaps needed a training captain in the seat to get hands-on time below 10000ft, so it was extremely difficult to keep their recency up without extra base-training.
Now, these guys are all first officers, with a considerable number of hours, but a very low total of landings. This inevitably will cause some heart-searching when they come up for assessment for command.
Overall, the scheme worked at the time, but has saved us little if any cash, and is now causing what will be an emotionally-charged and intractable problem. I doubt we will repeat the experiment.
WWW: cheers, mate. I was beginning to feel I was banging my head against a brick wall!!
this is a bit off-thread, but this is my take on the situation.
A few years ago Virgin took on 10 A340s in fairly quick order. There weren't enough sufficiently qualified pilots around (that old story...!) to fully man the ultra-long-haul routes that need one or even two relief pilots as full-blown first officers, so they decided to recruit a number of second officers (or 'cruise pilots') with much less experience to occupy a seat during those interminable hours over Russia.
Of course, these guys had to do the full CAA ARB course on the aircraft, and needed extra sim and base training time in many cases. Once on the line, these chaps needed a training captain in the seat to get hands-on time below 10000ft, so it was extremely difficult to keep their recency up without extra base-training.
Now, these guys are all first officers, with a considerable number of hours, but a very low total of landings. This inevitably will cause some heart-searching when they come up for assessment for command.
Overall, the scheme worked at the time, but has saved us little if any cash, and is now causing what will be an emotionally-charged and intractable problem. I doubt we will repeat the experiment.
WWW: cheers, mate. I was beginning to feel I was banging my head against a brick wall!!
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Wow!
It's taken me a good 30mins to read all the comments in this particular thread and it gets a bit snappy from time to time....I hope I'm not going to be flamed too!
However, I can appreciate the points of all parties (including Scroggs who is VERY scary!). I must admit that I'm going modular just 'cause I can't afford to do it any other way, so in spite of this thread making me want to go and saw my own head off, I'd rather try and be a little more productive.
Scroggs (& WWW), if I'm going to have to obtain 1000/1500 odd hours before I'm going to get a look into a heavy jet job with someone like Virgin, what is going to be the best way of doing it (cheapest or most cost effective route would be best). How bad do you think things will get in the job market for recently graduated pilots? (I expect to be qualified in 2 years thereabouts). I've only just drawn on the first part of my CDL so if things are looking hopeless then it would be better for me to bug out now rather than getting myself into yet more debt (and I've just passed my Class 1 medical too!!)
Your words of wisdom are, as always, much appreciated.......although the truth really hurts sometimes!
It's taken me a good 30mins to read all the comments in this particular thread and it gets a bit snappy from time to time....I hope I'm not going to be flamed too!
However, I can appreciate the points of all parties (including Scroggs who is VERY scary!). I must admit that I'm going modular just 'cause I can't afford to do it any other way, so in spite of this thread making me want to go and saw my own head off, I'd rather try and be a little more productive.
Scroggs (& WWW), if I'm going to have to obtain 1000/1500 odd hours before I'm going to get a look into a heavy jet job with someone like Virgin, what is going to be the best way of doing it (cheapest or most cost effective route would be best). How bad do you think things will get in the job market for recently graduated pilots? (I expect to be qualified in 2 years thereabouts). I've only just drawn on the first part of my CDL so if things are looking hopeless then it would be better for me to bug out now rather than getting myself into yet more debt (and I've just passed my Class 1 medical too!!)
Your words of wisdom are, as always, much appreciated.......although the truth really hurts sometimes!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
So Scroggsy.
Virgin takes ol' farts like me?
Never thought of myself as a Virgin though?
I got the hours, getting the JAR ATPL, just have to convince them at the interview huh?
Cheers
Virgin takes ol' farts like me?
Never thought of myself as a Virgin though?
I got the hours, getting the JAR ATPL, just have to convince them at the interview huh?
Cheers
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Reddo,
I'm sure the only job you really want is as a full-time, paid, Ppruner! Don't know about old farts, girl, but we take peeps up to (I think) 57 years old, as long as they have the requisite 2500 hours (or 3000, or whatever it is today) on something a lot heavier than a J31.
Minuteman,
I'm intrigued! Tell me more - and remember that the above post isn't official Virgin policy or comment, just my opinion.
WWSD
I'm sorry if my musings seem scary to you; that wasn't the idea!
The bottom line is that all airlines would like to employ experienced pilots - preferably with type ratings on the aircraft they operate. At the feeder end of the market (the bit you guys are interested in), that's not going to happen. So they specify what they think will give them the best and cheapest shot at getting useful pilots on the line as quickly as possible. That includes some who have recently completed their ATPL training.
As I think WWW mentioned above, the system has recently changed to what you now 'enjoy'. However, most airline recruiting departments are still working with memories (sometimes very painful) of the old system, in which the self-improver could achieve an ATPL with far less supervisory training than now. Under that system, there was no doubt that the 509er (integrated) was statistically a far better bet than the self-improver (modular) at low hours. Even now, an integrated graduate is more likely to be successful in line training than a modular graduate who has taken a long time to get his FATPL. That's why they ask the self-improver/modular graduate for more hours. As the new system settles down, and as long as airlines need to recruit such inexperienced pilots (which is not a given), the 'prejudice' against modular peeps with good continuity may reduce.
Notwithstanding all this, an airline operating jet equipment is likely to prefer to hire someone with a good few hours and commercial twin or turbo experience, so the low-hour graduate of either system is not the candidate of choice!
Flying heavy jets is the pinnacle of your chosen career, not the bit you do just after training. Most of the current big jet pilots did long apprenticeships on smaller equipment in provincial airlines, and that maybe after some years doing military or air-taxi stuff.
Please be patient. If you were to end up in a 747 flight deck at 25, what on earth would you have to aspire to for the rest of your career? Go and get those hours, whichever route you take.
PS, WWSD: you're not going to get a job with Virgin without working for someone else first! Unlike BA, we don't have a fleet that lends itself to a structured career for new pilots. As you could expect a maximum of two or three landings a month, we like to be sure that your technique is firmly embedded in your subconscious before you come to us. As I've said many times before (including in this post), we don't take pilots with less than 2500 hours, and preferably considerably more.
As for how the market will be in two years' time, who knows? My opinion, for what it's worth, is that any recession will be fairly short and shallow. The industry has already suffered a significant drop in long-haul loads, and recruiting to the US and European majors is slowing. The UK IT airlines have been somewhat sheltered by the continuing strength of UK consumer spending, and so they are likely to recruit quite strongly this winter. UK commuters, also, haven't seen too much change as yet.
It all depends on continuing consumer confidence; if you think you might be unemployed soon, holidays etc are not likely to feature in your spending plans. Equally, businesses rein in their foreign travel. The airline industry then suffers as a result - and thus take on fewer new hires. This effect is displaced from the economic cycle by 6 months to a year, so if the slowdown ended at Christmas, I'd be expecting airlines to resume expanding by the end of 2002.
However, if my crystal ball's better than Alan Greenspan's or Eddie George's, I'm in the wrong job!
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]
I'm sure the only job you really want is as a full-time, paid, Ppruner! Don't know about old farts, girl, but we take peeps up to (I think) 57 years old, as long as they have the requisite 2500 hours (or 3000, or whatever it is today) on something a lot heavier than a J31.
Minuteman,
I'm intrigued! Tell me more - and remember that the above post isn't official Virgin policy or comment, just my opinion.
WWSD
I'm sorry if my musings seem scary to you; that wasn't the idea!
The bottom line is that all airlines would like to employ experienced pilots - preferably with type ratings on the aircraft they operate. At the feeder end of the market (the bit you guys are interested in), that's not going to happen. So they specify what they think will give them the best and cheapest shot at getting useful pilots on the line as quickly as possible. That includes some who have recently completed their ATPL training.
As I think WWW mentioned above, the system has recently changed to what you now 'enjoy'. However, most airline recruiting departments are still working with memories (sometimes very painful) of the old system, in which the self-improver could achieve an ATPL with far less supervisory training than now. Under that system, there was no doubt that the 509er (integrated) was statistically a far better bet than the self-improver (modular) at low hours. Even now, an integrated graduate is more likely to be successful in line training than a modular graduate who has taken a long time to get his FATPL. That's why they ask the self-improver/modular graduate for more hours. As the new system settles down, and as long as airlines need to recruit such inexperienced pilots (which is not a given), the 'prejudice' against modular peeps with good continuity may reduce.
Notwithstanding all this, an airline operating jet equipment is likely to prefer to hire someone with a good few hours and commercial twin or turbo experience, so the low-hour graduate of either system is not the candidate of choice!
Flying heavy jets is the pinnacle of your chosen career, not the bit you do just after training. Most of the current big jet pilots did long apprenticeships on smaller equipment in provincial airlines, and that maybe after some years doing military or air-taxi stuff.
Please be patient. If you were to end up in a 747 flight deck at 25, what on earth would you have to aspire to for the rest of your career? Go and get those hours, whichever route you take.
PS, WWSD: you're not going to get a job with Virgin without working for someone else first! Unlike BA, we don't have a fleet that lends itself to a structured career for new pilots. As you could expect a maximum of two or three landings a month, we like to be sure that your technique is firmly embedded in your subconscious before you come to us. As I've said many times before (including in this post), we don't take pilots with less than 2500 hours, and preferably considerably more.
As for how the market will be in two years' time, who knows? My opinion, for what it's worth, is that any recession will be fairly short and shallow. The industry has already suffered a significant drop in long-haul loads, and recruiting to the US and European majors is slowing. The UK IT airlines have been somewhat sheltered by the continuing strength of UK consumer spending, and so they are likely to recruit quite strongly this winter. UK commuters, also, haven't seen too much change as yet.
It all depends on continuing consumer confidence; if you think you might be unemployed soon, holidays etc are not likely to feature in your spending plans. Equally, businesses rein in their foreign travel. The airline industry then suffers as a result - and thus take on fewer new hires. This effect is displaced from the economic cycle by 6 months to a year, so if the slowdown ended at Christmas, I'd be expecting airlines to resume expanding by the end of 2002.
However, if my crystal ball's better than Alan Greenspan's or Eddie George's, I'm in the wrong job!
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]
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Although I hold a Frozen ATPL I don't know that I would fit into either of the classic Integrated or Modular brackets although the previous posts have put doubts into my mind. Like many others I suppose I trained as a Modular student but under the confines of the Integrated route. I completed the training full time from ab-initio in 15 months but did not use any one school throughout. I completed an FAA PPL and built to 100 hrs. Came home for the ATPL groundschool at Coventry, returned to the states to build to 100hrs P1 and came back home to complete the fully approved BCPL to CPL/IR upgrade course at SFT including LOFT. I have since completed Perf 'A' and MCC at Multiflight. Is this a CAP509 course. Probably not, but I went through exactly the same process as an ab-initio student from Oxford, Cabair etc. I just didn't do it all under one roof because this way was considerably cheaper. I now have 400hrs as I have tried to keep current. I don't have a job yet but hope to soon. I suspect that Citiexpress would reject my application and in my opinion that is their loss. Maybe they haven't considered that students may have followed this process?
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Thanks very much for your last input there WWW and Scroggs. If I understand you correctly you both seem to agree with my feelings that the modular candidate will start to be viewed as a not so far apart from the integrated one. Much in the same way that none of us would buy Skodas today, this may not be as quick as is deserved however!
Having just read TB’s other related thread, I really hope that nobody here thought that they would walk into a jet job with 200/250 hours. If so they really haven’t done enough research, or talked to people in the industry. I fortunately have had a chat or two (!) with airline pilot instructors, which has educated me enormously.
Personally, I feel that instructing is an excellent route to build hours for a year or two, as WWW has described it can be very fulfilling, and there’s no autopilot/autothrottle FD FMC or whatever, i.e. it is real flying.
The reason I got involved was that if an employer demanded 750 hours more on paper for a modular candidate, then it is a reasonable (if somewhat simplistic) extension of the argument that a 1000 hour integrated pilot looks the same on paper as a 1750 hour modular person.
So that is an extra year of instruction at least (or a lot of solo hours perhaps – not sure how though), which for me is fine, apart from it is a different set of maths to work with when looking at integrated vs. modular.
I am prepared to be flamed out for this, but I assume I can get a non-instructing job at 2000 hours at latest, really on the basis of examples I know. Therefore it (for me) becomes an exercise of money/time, a feasibility study if you like, hence my personal interest.
I love flying enormously, but to barrel into something blissfully unaware of the dangers facing you at the end really constitutes taking a large risk, which is something that does not sit easy with becoming a commercial pilot (IMHO).
So come on folks listen to Scroggs and WWW. Plan to spend much time building hours, and if that is not your cup of tea, walk away at this stage.
As the thread started off ‘This is not fair’ – I have an ironic smile on my face as the CP who draughted that ad probably took about 2 minutes based on his previous experience in that position and I have spent for ever it seems discussing parts of this thread. They will have far too many good applicants to give a damn if 100’s of good candidates are not eligible at application stage.
It may not seem ‘fair’ to some modular wanabee’s, but I guarantee they only have to do their selection process once and end up with a good set of pilots, so certainly operationally efficient…
Having just read TB’s other related thread, I really hope that nobody here thought that they would walk into a jet job with 200/250 hours. If so they really haven’t done enough research, or talked to people in the industry. I fortunately have had a chat or two (!) with airline pilot instructors, which has educated me enormously.
Personally, I feel that instructing is an excellent route to build hours for a year or two, as WWW has described it can be very fulfilling, and there’s no autopilot/autothrottle FD FMC or whatever, i.e. it is real flying.
The reason I got involved was that if an employer demanded 750 hours more on paper for a modular candidate, then it is a reasonable (if somewhat simplistic) extension of the argument that a 1000 hour integrated pilot looks the same on paper as a 1750 hour modular person.
So that is an extra year of instruction at least (or a lot of solo hours perhaps – not sure how though), which for me is fine, apart from it is a different set of maths to work with when looking at integrated vs. modular.
I am prepared to be flamed out for this, but I assume I can get a non-instructing job at 2000 hours at latest, really on the basis of examples I know. Therefore it (for me) becomes an exercise of money/time, a feasibility study if you like, hence my personal interest.
I love flying enormously, but to barrel into something blissfully unaware of the dangers facing you at the end really constitutes taking a large risk, which is something that does not sit easy with becoming a commercial pilot (IMHO).
So come on folks listen to Scroggs and WWW. Plan to spend much time building hours, and if that is not your cup of tea, walk away at this stage.
As the thread started off ‘This is not fair’ – I have an ironic smile on my face as the CP who draughted that ad probably took about 2 minutes based on his previous experience in that position and I have spent for ever it seems discussing parts of this thread. They will have far too many good applicants to give a damn if 100’s of good candidates are not eligible at application stage.
It may not seem ‘fair’ to some modular wanabee’s, but I guarantee they only have to do their selection process once and end up with a good set of pilots, so certainly operationally efficient…
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Wait a minute, what about Luke SkyToddler's comments in another thread. It kinda adds another slant to this!
Its found here:
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...c&f=2&t=010340
I don't undertand Luke, I thought you did a CAP509 course too?
Tarmach
Its found here:
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...c&f=2&t=010340
I don't undertand Luke, I thought you did a CAP509 course too?
Tarmach
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Tarmach,
I don't know Luke, and I have no details of his story other than the post you refer to, but it's unwise to draw conclusions from one example.
Airlines will always employ the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that they interview. They will interview the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that apply. They will invite to apply the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that are paper-qualified for the job. That's it. Your job is to be the best of the best (I hate that cliche!
).
There is always a danger that you can get 'typecast' in a role you don't want; instructors can get into a rut - and that comes over at interview. It was always true, and always will be. For some people, it just doesn't happen, whatever they do. This job has a lot in common with acting or music as a career; a lot of very talented people never get the break they need, or feel they deserve. The proportion of successful pilots is a lot better than successful actors or singers, though!
Don't let individual stories of woe put you off. You are responsible for your own career; only you can make yourself the pilot the airlines can't refuse.
I don't know Luke, and I have no details of his story other than the post you refer to, but it's unwise to draw conclusions from one example.
Airlines will always employ the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that they interview. They will interview the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that apply. They will invite to apply the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that are paper-qualified for the job. That's it. Your job is to be the best of the best (I hate that cliche!
).There is always a danger that you can get 'typecast' in a role you don't want; instructors can get into a rut - and that comes over at interview. It was always true, and always will be. For some people, it just doesn't happen, whatever they do. This job has a lot in common with acting or music as a career; a lot of very talented people never get the break they need, or feel they deserve. The proportion of successful pilots is a lot better than successful actors or singers, though!
Don't let individual stories of woe put you off. You are responsible for your own career; only you can make yourself the pilot the airlines can't refuse.