Brymon - This is unfair!
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: Guilford, Surrey
Thanks for answering that one Scroggs. How do they become 'typecasted' though?
I have often thought about this down at the airfield I fly from. Some instructors seem to only spend a few years at most instructing peeps beofore going to the airlines whereas others have been there for the entirety of their careers, even though they never intented to be 'career instructors'.
Everyone puts down their success in aviation or life for that matter to luck. I feel that this does play a part but I generally believe in the maxim that 'you make your own luck in this life'.
Could someone shet some light on this 'enigma'?
I have often thought about this down at the airfield I fly from. Some instructors seem to only spend a few years at most instructing peeps beofore going to the airlines whereas others have been there for the entirety of their careers, even though they never intented to be 'career instructors'.
Everyone puts down their success in aviation or life for that matter to luck. I feel that this does play a part but I generally believe in the maxim that 'you make your own luck in this life'.
Could someone shet some light on this 'enigma'?
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 6
From: Suffolk UK
You get typecast if you stay so long in a role no-one can see you as anything else, no matter what your talents are. Pilots are as prone to this as actors - and instructing is the role many of those get stuck in.
It doesn't happen to everyone, by any means, and you'd have to instruct for a very long time (over 5 years, say) to run the risk of being seen only as an instructor, so don't let it worry you too much. Interesting that you've noticed it at your home base; I bet most others here have as well.
It doesn't happen to everyone, by any means, and you'd have to instruct for a very long time (over 5 years, say) to run the risk of being seen only as an instructor, so don't let it worry you too much. Interesting that you've noticed it at your home base; I bet most others here have as well.
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 3
From: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Tarmach -
I'm not CAP509, or modular either. I'm a New Zealander, I trained on what you might call a CAP509 type program back in NZ (full time, CAA approved, reduced hour CPL/IR type of deal anyway) back in '95 - '96. Seems I've been skipping around the world ever since, instructing back home for a while before getting sick of the depressed job market there, and I moved to the UK in 1999. It hasn't been quite as rosy as advertised over here either, and I'm still instructing for my crusts ... (coming up on my 5th instructing anniversary in September actually, ouch Scroggs!!
)
My comment on that other thread was related to my present job, which mostly involves instructing RAF flying scholarship cadets and Air League sponsorship recipients. In the recent past, several of my students have gone on to jet jobs via British Airways sponsorships and/or self funded 509 courses, once they completed their scholarships with us.
With this being largely a UK website, what many wannabe's forum followers perhaps don't realise is that in most of the rest of the civilised world, it's unheard of to get a look in to even the lowest level of turboprop operator without much much higher experience levels than poor old Brymon/BRAL are asking for.
My personal example - back in '96 when I had 250 hours and a shiny new CPL/IR, my first aviation job involved sweeping hangar floors and assembling towed aerial banners for a skywriting company back home. I was deliriously happy to have it, and my mates were all jealous, because the boss promised me that I'd actually get a few hours flying after a few months (unpaid, obviously) if I worked hard! Me and the boys at that time also must have spent thousands of hours telemarketing and database punching, trying to create a bit of single engine charter work, and working for nothing on a marketing stall the flying school ran in the local shopping mall on weekends (any joyrides and PPL students we could create, we got to fly - perhaps). I logged 120 hours in my first year after graduating flying school and 180 hours in my second. I had a night job as a mechanic at a go-kart racing track, I was signing on for the dole most of that time as well, and I believe the most I ever made from flying in that period was $150 kiwi dollars in a single week (about £45). It's taken me this long to even get to the stage of making a living out of 'just' flying without having to slide further into debt to stay alive.
I'm not trying to make a hard luck story out of all that or fish for sympathy, in fact that is quite a normal sort of career path for new flying school graduates where I come from. Right now, I'm pretty happy just to be in the position of having finally cracked this mythical 1,000 hours and being able to start applying for some of these regional airline type positions at long last.
What should be crystal clear from the words of Scroggs is that the airline business does not owe anyone a break. Flying in any capacity is one of the most prestigious, sought after and desired jobs in the world (as the mere existence and popularity of this forum indicates!!) At this end of the market, they could specify that we should all have degrees in basket weaving and we'd all rush and do them and they'd still be overwhelmed with 'suitably qualified' people. Whether we think it's fair is a matter of supreme indifference.
I knew what the deal was going to be when I got into aviation, and walked into it with my eyes open - I may periodically have a good old bitch about my circumstances after a hard day, but I'm still acutely aware of how lucky I am compared to people who don't get to fly for a living, I wouldn't trade places for any money. Perhaps certain people on this forum having a go at the likes of Scroggs for telling it like it is, need to open their eyes a bit more.
I'm not CAP509, or modular either. I'm a New Zealander, I trained on what you might call a CAP509 type program back in NZ (full time, CAA approved, reduced hour CPL/IR type of deal anyway) back in '95 - '96. Seems I've been skipping around the world ever since, instructing back home for a while before getting sick of the depressed job market there, and I moved to the UK in 1999. It hasn't been quite as rosy as advertised over here either, and I'm still instructing for my crusts ... (coming up on my 5th instructing anniversary in September actually, ouch Scroggs!!
)My comment on that other thread was related to my present job, which mostly involves instructing RAF flying scholarship cadets and Air League sponsorship recipients. In the recent past, several of my students have gone on to jet jobs via British Airways sponsorships and/or self funded 509 courses, once they completed their scholarships with us.
With this being largely a UK website, what many wannabe's forum followers perhaps don't realise is that in most of the rest of the civilised world, it's unheard of to get a look in to even the lowest level of turboprop operator without much much higher experience levels than poor old Brymon/BRAL are asking for.
My personal example - back in '96 when I had 250 hours and a shiny new CPL/IR, my first aviation job involved sweeping hangar floors and assembling towed aerial banners for a skywriting company back home. I was deliriously happy to have it, and my mates were all jealous, because the boss promised me that I'd actually get a few hours flying after a few months (unpaid, obviously) if I worked hard! Me and the boys at that time also must have spent thousands of hours telemarketing and database punching, trying to create a bit of single engine charter work, and working for nothing on a marketing stall the flying school ran in the local shopping mall on weekends (any joyrides and PPL students we could create, we got to fly - perhaps). I logged 120 hours in my first year after graduating flying school and 180 hours in my second. I had a night job as a mechanic at a go-kart racing track, I was signing on for the dole most of that time as well, and I believe the most I ever made from flying in that period was $150 kiwi dollars in a single week (about £45). It's taken me this long to even get to the stage of making a living out of 'just' flying without having to slide further into debt to stay alive.
I'm not trying to make a hard luck story out of all that or fish for sympathy, in fact that is quite a normal sort of career path for new flying school graduates where I come from. Right now, I'm pretty happy just to be in the position of having finally cracked this mythical 1,000 hours and being able to start applying for some of these regional airline type positions at long last.
What should be crystal clear from the words of Scroggs is that the airline business does not owe anyone a break. Flying in any capacity is one of the most prestigious, sought after and desired jobs in the world (as the mere existence and popularity of this forum indicates!!) At this end of the market, they could specify that we should all have degrees in basket weaving and we'd all rush and do them and they'd still be overwhelmed with 'suitably qualified' people. Whether we think it's fair is a matter of supreme indifference.
I knew what the deal was going to be when I got into aviation, and walked into it with my eyes open - I may periodically have a good old bitch about my circumstances after a hard day, but I'm still acutely aware of how lucky I am compared to people who don't get to fly for a living, I wouldn't trade places for any money. Perhaps certain people on this forum having a go at the likes of Scroggs for telling it like it is, need to open their eyes a bit more.
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 6
From: Suffolk UK
Luke,
what you say is so, so true. Magnified many fold by where you are, no doubt, but it will do the UK wannabes no harm to learn that they are the blessed in this field!
We do get quite a lot of Kiwi wannabes on Pprune, but with your small population and your lack of profitable medium-range international routes, it's no surprise that jobs are difficult in your part of the world. That's no consolation to you, but a salutary lesson to the Europeans here, I hope.
what you say is so, so true. Magnified many fold by where you are, no doubt, but it will do the UK wannabes no harm to learn that they are the blessed in this field!
We do get quite a lot of Kiwi wannabes on Pprune, but with your small population and your lack of profitable medium-range international routes, it's no surprise that jobs are difficult in your part of the world. That's no consolation to you, but a salutary lesson to the Europeans here, I hope.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
Aviation isn't an easy game to crack.
I consider myself "lucky" in that I have done a lot of different things flying wise.
Instructing, charter, scenic, coastwatch, regional airline flying.
I had 400 hours before I got my first part time job as an instructor. Why so many hours? I got ripped off by my first flying school. No such thing as PPRuNe then! There was a recession in Oz so I needed to keep working as a lab tech to pay for the mortgage.
In 1994 I left every thing in Sydney and headed off to the Kimberly region in Oz. That's a good 5 day drive from Sydney.
Stayed there and washed planes/swept hangars waiting for an opportunity to fly for a living. Over 4 months later I passed the check ride and started flying. First job with 500 hours. Not on a 737, not on a Dash 8, not even a Bandit, but a Cessna 206! Believe me, I wasn't complaining. A full time paid flying job!! At least 50 other pilots DIDN'T get a job that season (in that town). Persistance and practice paid off. After 2 years of that (eventually getting onto the Partenavia after attaining 1500 hours) I got a great job flying Islanders for Coastwatch. I eventually got onto the Shrike. Now, that was a fun job. Flying around paradise looking for things.
With 3300 hours and nearly 2000 hours on twins I managed to get a job as an FO on Bandits and Twotters in Cairns. Another stunningly beautiful part of Australia.
As the FO I had the joy of loading and unloading the plane as well as flight planning and supervising the fuelling. + greeting the pax and briefing them as well as handing out the tucker. However, I was just happy to be flying turbines!
After 18 months of that and with over 4000 hours I got a job flying Dash 8's.
Things happen as they often do and I decided to come over to the UK to convert my ATPL to a JAR one. I know what the score is here but I also know it is much much better here than in Oz for jet opportunities.
A few times I have thought about chucking in this career and doing something else. However, as my Mum told me, I have had too much fun to walk away from it. It's difficult starting over again but I have seen and touched the sky. I want to do it again.
One thing I certainly have noticed, the harder you work the luckier you get. Also, if you appear to be putting in the hard work, then nobody minds giving you a hand.
Good luck to you all.
I consider myself "lucky" in that I have done a lot of different things flying wise.
Instructing, charter, scenic, coastwatch, regional airline flying.
I had 400 hours before I got my first part time job as an instructor. Why so many hours? I got ripped off by my first flying school. No such thing as PPRuNe then! There was a recession in Oz so I needed to keep working as a lab tech to pay for the mortgage.
In 1994 I left every thing in Sydney and headed off to the Kimberly region in Oz. That's a good 5 day drive from Sydney.
Stayed there and washed planes/swept hangars waiting for an opportunity to fly for a living. Over 4 months later I passed the check ride and started flying. First job with 500 hours. Not on a 737, not on a Dash 8, not even a Bandit, but a Cessna 206! Believe me, I wasn't complaining. A full time paid flying job!! At least 50 other pilots DIDN'T get a job that season (in that town). Persistance and practice paid off. After 2 years of that (eventually getting onto the Partenavia after attaining 1500 hours) I got a great job flying Islanders for Coastwatch. I eventually got onto the Shrike. Now, that was a fun job. Flying around paradise looking for things.
With 3300 hours and nearly 2000 hours on twins I managed to get a job as an FO on Bandits and Twotters in Cairns. Another stunningly beautiful part of Australia.
As the FO I had the joy of loading and unloading the plane as well as flight planning and supervising the fuelling. + greeting the pax and briefing them as well as handing out the tucker. However, I was just happy to be flying turbines!
After 18 months of that and with over 4000 hours I got a job flying Dash 8's.
Things happen as they often do and I decided to come over to the UK to convert my ATPL to a JAR one. I know what the score is here but I also know it is much much better here than in Oz for jet opportunities.
A few times I have thought about chucking in this career and doing something else. However, as my Mum told me, I have had too much fun to walk away from it. It's difficult starting over again but I have seen and touched the sky. I want to do it again.
One thing I certainly have noticed, the harder you work the luckier you get. Also, if you appear to be putting in the hard work, then nobody minds giving you a hand.
Good luck to you all.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
Another thing, my accountant (of all people) gave me this piece of advice before I went to the Kimberley. He said, "this is a small industry, every one knows every one. There fore, be on your "best" behaviour all the time. A check ride will determine if you can fly, but what the operators will be looking for is a person that can fit in and work with the other employees and the clients."
This forum is a classic example of "a small industry".
This forum is a classic example of "a small industry".
