Brymon - This is unfair!
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Scroggs,
Over the last few months, I have met either through this forum or in person, 509 students who have got jobs within 6 months of completing their IR. I also know other Upgraders who are still jobless after 2 years. This may be just coincidence however I think the majority of 509 students are younger than their Modular counter parts. This I feel may be a factor as airlines want more years for their investment. Some other airlines (I won't name them) prefer career change pilots and the majority of them are Upgraders who got their licences whilst in their previous profession (me included).
With a requirement of either 509 course or 1000 hours, there is NO clear idea of what the airline wants! If a pilot has say 700 hours of which 400 was in a Turbo prop (Shorts or equiv) and a 509 student straight out of the course, then I cannot see or even begin to understand what the airline wants. I do know that airlines want experience, preferably commercial experience as this minimises the risk of failure in training.
The right personality profile also helps and is an important factor but I won't go into that as this is not really what I'm talking about.
Yes, sure, airlines can set any pre-requisite they want for entry but in this case, I believe that this may be an attempt to minimise the applications received thus time and money opening letters, cv's etc (administration costs). This way, I don't think they are getting the best they can possibly get from the pool of pilots only those that fit between the numbers they ask (509 or 1000hrs etc). Not sure what the statistics are for unemployed pilots (509, modular or military.) who have either licences perhaps I should start a thread?...
So, it is unfair that we have this requirement but aviation is not about fairness anyway. What I want to see is that ALL of us are given the same opportunity to start our careers in this profession be it coming from 509, Upgrade or Military. This may be only one airline that has set this standard but I hope this does not reflect what the future hiring requirements are for other carriers.
Over the last few months, I have met either through this forum or in person, 509 students who have got jobs within 6 months of completing their IR. I also know other Upgraders who are still jobless after 2 years. This may be just coincidence however I think the majority of 509 students are younger than their Modular counter parts. This I feel may be a factor as airlines want more years for their investment. Some other airlines (I won't name them) prefer career change pilots and the majority of them are Upgraders who got their licences whilst in their previous profession (me included).
With a requirement of either 509 course or 1000 hours, there is NO clear idea of what the airline wants! If a pilot has say 700 hours of which 400 was in a Turbo prop (Shorts or equiv) and a 509 student straight out of the course, then I cannot see or even begin to understand what the airline wants. I do know that airlines want experience, preferably commercial experience as this minimises the risk of failure in training.
The right personality profile also helps and is an important factor but I won't go into that as this is not really what I'm talking about.
Yes, sure, airlines can set any pre-requisite they want for entry but in this case, I believe that this may be an attempt to minimise the applications received thus time and money opening letters, cv's etc (administration costs). This way, I don't think they are getting the best they can possibly get from the pool of pilots only those that fit between the numbers they ask (509 or 1000hrs etc). Not sure what the statistics are for unemployed pilots (509, modular or military.) who have either licences perhaps I should start a thread?...
So, it is unfair that we have this requirement but aviation is not about fairness anyway. What I want to see is that ALL of us are given the same opportunity to start our careers in this profession be it coming from 509, Upgrade or Military. This may be only one airline that has set this standard but I hope this does not reflect what the future hiring requirements are for other carriers.
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Tarmach,
In addition to DIY on MIR, you will also need 5 touch and goes off one approach in the space shuttle. The first one at Mach 5, wheels on, pull the nose up for go around, the second Touch and Go at Mach 4, then the third at Mach 3 etc. Only then, will you application be considered to be put in the pile "For consideration"
v1...rotate...
In addition to DIY on MIR, you will also need 5 touch and goes off one approach in the space shuttle. The first one at Mach 5, wheels on, pull the nose up for go around, the second Touch and Go at Mach 4, then the third at Mach 3 etc. Only then, will you application be considered to be put in the pile "For consideration"
v1...rotate...
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er.. Houston we have a problem with the goes part of the touch and go!!
We basically want pilots selected on merit alone rather than the sole criteria of type of course they have been on or how much money their father has!!
We basically want pilots selected on merit alone rather than the sole criteria of type of course they have been on or how much money their father has!!
I think that you'll find the buzzwords these days are 'Applicants should have experience commensurate with their age'.
A certain airline has been very happy to snap up 3 of my colleagues who were all 'self-improvers' who went on to get their FI ratings, IRs and 1000 hours. As well as FI time, all 3 were experienced flight engineers in their 30s.
[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
A certain airline has been very happy to snap up 3 of my colleagues who were all 'self-improvers' who went on to get their FI ratings, IRs and 1000 hours. As well as FI time, all 3 were experienced flight engineers in their 30s.
[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
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OK guys, as a Brymon Capt I'll give you my thoughts. I don't know the exact reasons for the companys policy, but my opinion from the coalface is that the 509er with min hours is a good product and adapts very quickly to the 2 crew SOP driven flight deck quicker and more readily than someone who has 1000 hr in PA28 etc. No I'm not a 509er, I am an ex-GA sector pilot. However I did'nt train on DHC-8 until 2400hr(1000hr GA twin) and I personally found the most challenging aspect of my training to be the 2 crew concept. So there you are thats my opinion.
At the end of the day, It is up to the airline to decide who they want, after all, they are paying!
At the end of the day, It is up to the airline to decide who they want, after all, they are paying!
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Thats interesting Deadleg. Perhaps its not the type of course though, but rather the amount of hours flown. For instance flying 1000 hours in a single crew aeroplane you would become very used to making your own command decisions without the influnce of others etc. However, a CAP 509er who has only done around 200 hours would not be totally mindset and would be more flexible in a multi crew environment.
I guess the proof of this would be to look at CAP509ers who have become FIs with over 1000 hours on PA28s before getting that elusive airline job. Then we could see how they adapt to their new environment!
I guess the proof of this would be to look at CAP509ers who have become FIs with over 1000 hours on PA28s before getting that elusive airline job. Then we could see how they adapt to their new environment!
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The outfit I work for has found the same thing. Low hours second officers adapt readily to two man sop's. Most of the extra training went to 1000+ hour pilots who had to unlearn all the bad habits they tend to pick up on irrelevant types.
It's no good whinging about the airlines requirement peeps. When I landed a job, the requirement was 1500 hours min + 500 hours on jet or turbo prop. You guys now get an opportunity to work for an airline that 13 years ago was not available. I would have given anything to have had a chance at a job on a commercial jet with such pitifully low hours.
The reality is, is that the entry requirements are driven by the availability of pilots, simple. Sometimes it works in your favour and sometimes it doesn't.
P.S Some guys get command after a couple of years and some have to wait 14+ years. Luck never stops playing a part in this game.
Edit for P.S
[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]
It's no good whinging about the airlines requirement peeps. When I landed a job, the requirement was 1500 hours min + 500 hours on jet or turbo prop. You guys now get an opportunity to work for an airline that 13 years ago was not available. I would have given anything to have had a chance at a job on a commercial jet with such pitifully low hours.
The reality is, is that the entry requirements are driven by the availability of pilots, simple. Sometimes it works in your favour and sometimes it doesn't.
P.S Some guys get command after a couple of years and some have to wait 14+ years. Luck never stops playing a part in this game.
Edit for P.S
[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]
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Gazeem, why not READ the advert...
It is for a company called CitiExpress. This is the result of the merge between British Regional Airlines and Brymon, not just Brymon.
All the management will be BA and I'm sure over time more BA ploicy and atttutes will be adapted.
As a Captain with this company I will agree with Deadleg, I had 4000hr (most of it single crew) in corporate and similar flying before the Dash 8 I also found the 2 crew concept hard. 509ers are like dry sponges, tell them once and it's remembered. Ga with over 1000hrs normally have enough hands on experience to get through the sim and course.
remember these big company keep stats on what background fits in and gets through the training easily.
It is for a company called CitiExpress. This is the result of the merge between British Regional Airlines and Brymon, not just Brymon.
All the management will be BA and I'm sure over time more BA ploicy and atttutes will be adapted.
As a Captain with this company I will agree with Deadleg, I had 4000hr (most of it single crew) in corporate and similar flying before the Dash 8 I also found the 2 crew concept hard. 509ers are like dry sponges, tell them once and it's remembered. Ga with over 1000hrs normally have enough hands on experience to get through the sim and course.
remember these big company keep stats on what background fits in and gets through the training easily.
Thread Starter
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Wings Level, why not read my first post on this thread? I said Brymon AND other BA fledglings.
Truth be told I left the flight article at work and couldn't remember the new name Citiexpress.
Well, 27 posts later I certainly have started some debate upon this topic, which was my initial aim.
Also some Brymon air crew have got involved which is no bad thing.
WL - I focused in on Brymon because of my geographic location, I would like to eventually begin my career with a Bristol based airline, but I am realistic and will go where I need to!
[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Gazeem ]
Truth be told I left the flight article at work and couldn't remember the new name Citiexpress.
Well, 27 posts later I certainly have started some debate upon this topic, which was my initial aim.
Also some Brymon air crew have got involved which is no bad thing.
WL - I focused in on Brymon because of my geographic location, I would like to eventually begin my career with a Bristol based airline, but I am realistic and will go where I need to!
[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Gazeem ]
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v1rotate,
I'm afraid your sample of 509ers/self-improvers/others is pitifully small compared to the number of active commercial pilots in this country, and thus your argument has limited credibility. You also have no insight into the recruiting priorities of the airlines, or the constraints under which they operate, whether they be commercial, financial, insurance-driven, or whatever.
As Max Cont and Deadleg have mentioned, there is considerable experience (not opinion)within the industry that recently-graduated intergrated course graduates are mor easily trained and more likely to succeed than their modular counterparts. That is demonstrable fact, and will not be changed because you might wish it were different.
Don't forget that even the smallest feeder line would prefer to employ a 10,000-hour, type-rated, incident-free, 25 year-old with no ambition to move on to greater things. That not being likely, they set their sights on what they consider to be the best they can get. Don't forget also that the minimum requirements specified in the ad are just that, the minimum qualifications required to apply. The - very few - successful applicants will probably exceed these qualifications by a considerable amount.
At the other end of the scale is the wannabe who would like guaranteed employment in the RHS of a 747 10 minutes after applying for a PPL course. Patently obviously, he or she is going to be disappointed. As you can see, both the airline and the wannabe have to accept a compromise in their ideals. In times of many more pilots than jobs, the airlines get closer to their ideal. In times of more jobs than pilots, the wannabe may expect employment with fewer hours or other strings.
Historically, you are able to get an airline job with fewer hours than ever at the moment; be grateful for this. As was mentioned above, not so long a go you would have needed 1500 hours and commercial experience to get a shot at a Jetstream 31. At the moment, some have a shot at a 737 with less than 500 hours. They are the exceptionally lucky ones, and there will alway be some of those. The rest of us have to slog to close th gap between what we can offer and what the airline wants.
Life ain't fair, and never will be. Don't waste too much of your time and energy complaining about something that is actually quite logical and reasonably even-handed. There are more important battles, although it might not seem so from your point of view just now. Your priority must be to make yourself as employable as possible, not to achieve the minimum and wait and see which airline will consider themselves lucky to have you!
I'm afraid your sample of 509ers/self-improvers/others is pitifully small compared to the number of active commercial pilots in this country, and thus your argument has limited credibility. You also have no insight into the recruiting priorities of the airlines, or the constraints under which they operate, whether they be commercial, financial, insurance-driven, or whatever.
As Max Cont and Deadleg have mentioned, there is considerable experience (not opinion)within the industry that recently-graduated intergrated course graduates are mor easily trained and more likely to succeed than their modular counterparts. That is demonstrable fact, and will not be changed because you might wish it were different.
Don't forget that even the smallest feeder line would prefer to employ a 10,000-hour, type-rated, incident-free, 25 year-old with no ambition to move on to greater things. That not being likely, they set their sights on what they consider to be the best they can get. Don't forget also that the minimum requirements specified in the ad are just that, the minimum qualifications required to apply. The - very few - successful applicants will probably exceed these qualifications by a considerable amount.
At the other end of the scale is the wannabe who would like guaranteed employment in the RHS of a 747 10 minutes after applying for a PPL course. Patently obviously, he or she is going to be disappointed. As you can see, both the airline and the wannabe have to accept a compromise in their ideals. In times of many more pilots than jobs, the airlines get closer to their ideal. In times of more jobs than pilots, the wannabe may expect employment with fewer hours or other strings.
Historically, you are able to get an airline job with fewer hours than ever at the moment; be grateful for this. As was mentioned above, not so long a go you would have needed 1500 hours and commercial experience to get a shot at a Jetstream 31. At the moment, some have a shot at a 737 with less than 500 hours. They are the exceptionally lucky ones, and there will alway be some of those. The rest of us have to slog to close th gap between what we can offer and what the airline wants.
Life ain't fair, and never will be. Don't waste too much of your time and energy complaining about something that is actually quite logical and reasonably even-handed. There are more important battles, although it might not seem so from your point of view just now. Your priority must be to make yourself as employable as possible, not to achieve the minimum and wait and see which airline will consider themselves lucky to have you!
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I have to add my voice to Scroggs. There seem to be an incredible number of people on this site who think the moment they move into the world of aviation, all standard business practices go out of the window - that airlines and operators exist solely to allow wannabes to realise their ambitions. Of course this can never be. Several people have mentioned how terrible it would be if City jobs were handed out to only those from the right universities - wake up everyone, that is the ONLY way it works, and ever will work for that matter.
I have seen many posts from people who feel it is their right to have a job flying after all of the training - if only life were that fair. I just cannot understand how such an idealogical viewpoint can exist amongst so many 2nd career-ers on this site. And to accuse Scroggs of not offering sufficient encouragement? ?? What is this, a forum for intelligent adults or some sort of creche?!? Maybe I'll start a thread elsewhere about trips to the zoo and set an essay writing challenge - "My Favourite Day...." In the meantime, get a grip people.
I have seen many posts from people who feel it is their right to have a job flying after all of the training - if only life were that fair. I just cannot understand how such an idealogical viewpoint can exist amongst so many 2nd career-ers on this site. And to accuse Scroggs of not offering sufficient encouragement? ?? What is this, a forum for intelligent adults or some sort of creche?!? Maybe I'll start a thread elsewhere about trips to the zoo and set an essay writing challenge - "My Favourite Day...." In the meantime, get a grip people.
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Tarmach,
by the time a pilot has sufficient experience to join Virgin, the training they underwent at the beginning of their career is pretty much irrelevent. Our operation (excepting Virgin Sun, which will shortly be defunct) is long-haul, widebody 4-engine stuff only. The airline some years ago decided that 2500 hours with multi-engine experience (preferably commercial multi jet) would be the minimum for application. Inevitably there are some exceptions to that, but these have never worked well!
For reasons immaterial to this argument, Virgin is a very popular potential employer; we get thousands of applications from qualified individuals for every job available. Therefore the average new-hire at Virgin has much more than the stated minimum. Typical new-hires may be FOs with 757/A320 operators with 4000+ hours, or military fast jet drivers with 3000+ hours, or mil transport drivers (like me) with 7000+ hours, or even 55 year-old ex-BA 747 drivers with 25000+ hours. You get the picture. Whether any of us were CAP509 or self-improvers is lost in the past!
In any case, the conditions under which we started flying were very different to what pertains now, and not very helpful to you.
Incidentally, even the Virgin Sun A320/1 operation insisted on 1500 hours. We did toy with a CEP scheme, which netted four lucky peeps a part-sponsorship, but they would probably not have gone straight to an A320 RHS on graduation. They may have been placed with someone else for some experience-gathering first, or they may have taken the less-satisfactory cruise-pilot route (now also closed) on our A340s and B744s. What will happen now to those that graduate I'm not sure, as the A320/1 seats are no longer available and it'll take tham a long time to qualify for long-haul. Similar questions hang over our younger flight-engineers who, as the B742s retire, were hoping to retrain as pilot and get an A320 seat with us. These guys also have many thousands of hours of long-haul flying, although in the third seat.
by the time a pilot has sufficient experience to join Virgin, the training they underwent at the beginning of their career is pretty much irrelevent. Our operation (excepting Virgin Sun, which will shortly be defunct) is long-haul, widebody 4-engine stuff only. The airline some years ago decided that 2500 hours with multi-engine experience (preferably commercial multi jet) would be the minimum for application. Inevitably there are some exceptions to that, but these have never worked well!
For reasons immaterial to this argument, Virgin is a very popular potential employer; we get thousands of applications from qualified individuals for every job available. Therefore the average new-hire at Virgin has much more than the stated minimum. Typical new-hires may be FOs with 757/A320 operators with 4000+ hours, or military fast jet drivers with 3000+ hours, or mil transport drivers (like me) with 7000+ hours, or even 55 year-old ex-BA 747 drivers with 25000+ hours. You get the picture. Whether any of us were CAP509 or self-improvers is lost in the past!
In any case, the conditions under which we started flying were very different to what pertains now, and not very helpful to you.
Incidentally, even the Virgin Sun A320/1 operation insisted on 1500 hours. We did toy with a CEP scheme, which netted four lucky peeps a part-sponsorship, but they would probably not have gone straight to an A320 RHS on graduation. They may have been placed with someone else for some experience-gathering first, or they may have taken the less-satisfactory cruise-pilot route (now also closed) on our A340s and B744s. What will happen now to those that graduate I'm not sure, as the A320/1 seats are no longer available and it'll take tham a long time to qualify for long-haul. Similar questions hang over our younger flight-engineers who, as the B742s retire, were hoping to retrain as pilot and get an A320 seat with us. These guys also have many thousands of hours of long-haul flying, although in the third seat.
Free Man, Not a Number
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Naive. As a potential wannabe (although unlikely as my eyes are not class 1) the attitude of some of the forum members is amazing.
As a senior business manager (read hirer) for a non aviation firm I set the rules on who I hire and what sort of back ground they have and what sort of skills I need them to have achieved. I have the overall good of the company (and the clients we service) to consider. Providing I do not discriminate on no-gos (age / sex / religion / disability) I can call it as I want. Just as the selectors for the airlines can.
If an airline decides that 2,000 hours total, comprising of 100 GA hours, 900 twin and 1,000 turbo prop is what they want, and you must have been trained by Mrs Smith at Bristol - then they set the rules. Although the catchment in this case might be quite small
The trick is to read these rules and events and to try and anticipate them - and that is where this forum really works. In simple terms if the predicted trend looks to be that RHS are only going to go to degree educated pilots then you must get a degree or work yourself into the trend somehow. As Scroggs has said - when you get over 5,000 hours the route in doesn't matter (getting there does) but from this side of the fence the route is everything. It's no good complaining that your skills and training are wrong or that their recruitment process is stone headed. Work with them not against them otherwise you will be sitting on the bench for a long time. Always think of the feeder routes - learn from successfull wannabes - how, what, where , courses etc...
As a senior business manager (read hirer) for a non aviation firm I set the rules on who I hire and what sort of back ground they have and what sort of skills I need them to have achieved. I have the overall good of the company (and the clients we service) to consider. Providing I do not discriminate on no-gos (age / sex / religion / disability) I can call it as I want. Just as the selectors for the airlines can.
If an airline decides that 2,000 hours total, comprising of 100 GA hours, 900 twin and 1,000 turbo prop is what they want, and you must have been trained by Mrs Smith at Bristol - then they set the rules. Although the catchment in this case might be quite small
The trick is to read these rules and events and to try and anticipate them - and that is where this forum really works. In simple terms if the predicted trend looks to be that RHS are only going to go to degree educated pilots then you must get a degree or work yourself into the trend somehow. As Scroggs has said - when you get over 5,000 hours the route in doesn't matter (getting there does) but from this side of the fence the route is everything. It's no good complaining that your skills and training are wrong or that their recruitment process is stone headed. Work with them not against them otherwise you will be sitting on the bench for a long time.
Always think of the feeder routes - learn from successfull wannabes - how, what, where , courses etc...
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Gazeen Ivan How would you like it played? I find play by my rules or I will shout and scream, a bit churlish. Until the ad came out there did not seem any prospects for Brymon et al in the near future. They will take about another 80 or so pilots out of the system. For people who have climed a big mountain to get as far as they are, must be focused. So look on the positive side there always is one.
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EM PE
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I think the general consensus of opinion on the criteria set by any airline, and thus the criteria that must be met by any prospective employee, is an accepted one by most people. If they stipulate 1000 hours and you must attend the interview dressed as Batman, then so be it, that's the way you play it, no question.
However, and please do not take this as a whinge as I have already stipulated that I am more than happy to do whatever it takes (probably instruct for a year or two) to get those all important hours, but will there come a time when the APPROVED modular route is seen as attractive as 509 ?
Personally, although maybe a limited amount of truth in the GENERAL case of 509'ers being an easier package to train than modular (still not totally convinced), the ability and the learning capacity/ability can not in all honesty vary that greatly between the two populations as a whole.
All comments welcome.
And yes, agree with post above 100%. Good luck to any guys going for these posts, any recruitment and tales of success always good to see.
Cheers.
However, and please do not take this as a whinge as I have already stipulated that I am more than happy to do whatever it takes (probably instruct for a year or two) to get those all important hours, but will there come a time when the APPROVED modular route is seen as attractive as 509 ?
Personally, although maybe a limited amount of truth in the GENERAL case of 509'ers being an easier package to train than modular (still not totally convinced), the ability and the learning capacity/ability can not in all honesty vary that greatly between the two populations as a whole.
All comments welcome.
And yes, agree with post above 100%. Good luck to any guys going for these posts, any recruitment and tales of success always good to see.
Cheers.
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Aviation as a whole is not very fair.Where else do you have to foot the bill for your training ?? In some cases enough to buy a small house!!!
Whinging at Brymon for their entrance qualifications is going to do what?Okay so they get rid of the bit about the modular guy with less than a 1000 hours.Now we all can apply.....But if Brymon want modular guys with more than 1000 hours,those under that figure will not get picked.
I agree with what was posted above about trying to second guess what the qualifying experience is and trying to achieve it.
And if experience has got to be comensurate with age...I will be nearly 38 when I`m qualified,modular route as well,so will be stuffed on that as well.But it`s my decision to have a career change,nobody else`s.
Most of these Airlines have a reg.VAT number not a Reg. Charity number.They are in business to make money and as they keep telling us they are not short of applicants.So like Scroggsie says it`s Brymon`s ball and we can`t play.....Mom...Mom...
Whinging at Brymon for their entrance qualifications is going to do what?Okay so they get rid of the bit about the modular guy with less than a 1000 hours.Now we all can apply.....But if Brymon want modular guys with more than 1000 hours,those under that figure will not get picked.
I agree with what was posted above about trying to second guess what the qualifying experience is and trying to achieve it.
And if experience has got to be comensurate with age...I will be nearly 38 when I`m qualified,modular route as well,so will be stuffed on that as well.But it`s my decision to have a career change,nobody else`s.
Most of these Airlines have a reg.VAT number not a Reg. Charity number.They are in business to make money and as they keep telling us they are not short of applicants.So like Scroggsie says it`s Brymon`s ball and we can`t play.....Mom...Mom...
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This is a tough old subject and I do not think it has a straight answer. The reason most of us choose modular is because it is cheaper and can also be completed without finishing your job and getting into loads of debt.
The answer in my view is as follows: If you complete the ATPL by the modular route factor in an instructors rating, this is required because it is better than sitting around and just sending out cv's. 1000 hours seems to be the norm so aim for that. Or take out more loans quit the job and do it integrated.
Just for some more info this is from the British European Website:
First Officers ATPL (Frozen), Perf 'A', CAA 509:300 hours total, MCC, minimum 1000 hours.
The answer in my view is as follows: If you complete the ATPL by the modular route factor in an instructors rating, this is required because it is better than sitting around and just sending out cv's. 1000 hours seems to be the norm so aim for that. Or take out more loans quit the job and do it integrated.
Just for some more info this is from the British European Website:
First Officers ATPL (Frozen), Perf 'A', CAA 509:300 hours total, MCC, minimum 1000 hours.
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This is really disappointing!
If this is the case what is the point of the modular route? Why not scrapping the modular route to protect the less wealthy wanabees?
Nevertheless, I still would like to see a study that demonstrates the claim that cap509rs are more likely to be successful pilots. I cannot see any science in this claim.
I think most of the people just choose one route or the other according to the their financial situation. If I had the money I would definitively go for the integrated route even knowing that the modular route would work best for me. I am not the type to sit in a classroom and let everybody else organise everything for me. I prefer to follow my own timetable at my own pace (which is not necessarily slow). As a researcher you get used to work alone and your sense or responsibility and organisation is much improved by this.
I think that both routes have advantages and disadvantages but I am inclined to say that integrated courses prepare people to pass exams which does not necessarily mean more knowledge. On the flying itself I can't see any difference at all. I thought that the only difference between the two routes was that the theory involves more hours of ground schoold for the 509 and the modular route allowed more self study and less classroom hours. If there is any differences on the flying training please let me know!
I know that there are a lot of you guys out there that do not agree with me but this is just an opinion. I still look at this as discrimination between who has and who hasn’t the money. I don’t believe that who goes through the modular route is a less able pilot.
I just hope that this changes as I am following the modular route because I cannot find the money for the integrated route, I cannot leave my current job because I need the few pounds I get out of it for the flying and I want to finish my PhD as I am not the type of person to give up easily what I have started.
Good luck everyone!
...and sorry for the english ....
If this is the case what is the point of the modular route? Why not scrapping the modular route to protect the less wealthy wanabees?
Nevertheless, I still would like to see a study that demonstrates the claim that cap509rs are more likely to be successful pilots. I cannot see any science in this claim.
I think most of the people just choose one route or the other according to the their financial situation. If I had the money I would definitively go for the integrated route even knowing that the modular route would work best for me. I am not the type to sit in a classroom and let everybody else organise everything for me. I prefer to follow my own timetable at my own pace (which is not necessarily slow). As a researcher you get used to work alone and your sense or responsibility and organisation is much improved by this.
I think that both routes have advantages and disadvantages but I am inclined to say that integrated courses prepare people to pass exams which does not necessarily mean more knowledge. On the flying itself I can't see any difference at all. I thought that the only difference between the two routes was that the theory involves more hours of ground schoold for the 509 and the modular route allowed more self study and less classroom hours. If there is any differences on the flying training please let me know!
I know that there are a lot of you guys out there that do not agree with me but this is just an opinion. I still look at this as discrimination between who has and who hasn’t the money. I don’t believe that who goes through the modular route is a less able pilot.
I just hope that this changes as I am following the modular route because I cannot find the money for the integrated route, I cannot leave my current job because I need the few pounds I get out of it for the flying and I want to finish my PhD as I am not the type of person to give up easily what I have started.
Good luck everyone!
...and sorry for the english ....
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TheNavigator,
I completely agree. It is discriminatory. I take Scrogg's and other's points on board about it being up to the airline and we should make sure we have the qualifications they require rather than just whinge about it. Fair enough, but this doesn't change the fact that we believe they are wrong in their decision and I don't see why we can't whinge while we work towards becoming what the airlines desire of us. Isn't that what this forum is for?
I completely agree. It is discriminatory. I take Scrogg's and other's points on board about it being up to the airline and we should make sure we have the qualifications they require rather than just whinge about it. Fair enough, but this doesn't change the fact that we believe they are wrong in their decision and I don't see why we can't whinge while we work towards becoming what the airlines desire of us. Isn't that what this forum is for?