Beware of Pilot assist college
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What do PAC achieve for you that you can't do yourself with a few phonecalls/visits to the few training establishnents that we have?
Having gone to OATS SFT etc may help if you're one of the few who gets a 737 at 300 hours, but at the end of the day jobs are all down to having the licence, the hours and the availability. Do you need someone else to add a % to your £30-40,000 to get there?.
I don't know the first thing about PAC, but like all the other training businesses, they are there to get your money.
Having gone to OATS SFT etc may help if you're one of the few who gets a 737 at 300 hours, but at the end of the day jobs are all down to having the licence, the hours and the availability. Do you need someone else to add a % to your £30-40,000 to get there?.
I don't know the first thing about PAC, but like all the other training businesses, they are there to get your money.
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Another point of concern I had with them and their lack of airline / market experience.
was the fact they expected all their students, after gaining their frozen ATPL via several FTO's to get an airline job strainght away.
No question of doing a FI's course to build hours because you may not gey hired straight away. I did ask them this question.
Their response was as slick as ever, to confuse the weak. "we will be training you in a consistant, structured manor. something the 'airlines' are looking for. therefore you should be fit for a job after training and building hours with a FI rating would not serve the 'airlines' any purpose"
Hello, what planet are they from. If your not CAP 509 only the very few and lucky will get that airline job straight after training.
Certainly not someone who has done their PPL with PamAm, theory back here, then gone out for CPL /IR with EFT, even had to do the tests back here, then MCC with someone else.
Heh I'm no expert. But at least I don't pretend to have all these contacts and know what the airlines will take when your ready for them.
I will be very interested to see in 12 months or so. When their first group of students are ready for the job market. How many , if any get that job or not.
Why do I get the same feeling from them as I do the labour party. A bunch of spin doctors
just out for your money. When you could get the same thing yourself without lining their pockets....
was the fact they expected all their students, after gaining their frozen ATPL via several FTO's to get an airline job strainght away.
No question of doing a FI's course to build hours because you may not gey hired straight away. I did ask them this question.
Their response was as slick as ever, to confuse the weak. "we will be training you in a consistant, structured manor. something the 'airlines' are looking for. therefore you should be fit for a job after training and building hours with a FI rating would not serve the 'airlines' any purpose"
Hello, what planet are they from. If your not CAP 509 only the very few and lucky will get that airline job straight after training.
Certainly not someone who has done their PPL with PamAm, theory back here, then gone out for CPL /IR with EFT, even had to do the tests back here, then MCC with someone else.
Heh I'm no expert. But at least I don't pretend to have all these contacts and know what the airlines will take when your ready for them.
I will be very interested to see in 12 months or so. When their first group of students are ready for the job market. How many , if any get that job or not.
Why do I get the same feeling from them as I do the labour party. A bunch of spin doctors
just out for your money. When you could get the same thing yourself without lining their pockets....
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yes well, another day, here we go again!
hi to civil & ace again by the way...
as far as a % goes civil, they charge less than a grand for their services, no bull, cards are laid out on the table. Not something like 10k which I think everyone imagines! You refer to the fact that like all the other FTO's out there, they're only out there to get your money... I can understand why you're so cynical as I said in an earlier post, most of the FTO's out there are out to get your money, but for some insane crazy reason, these guys I think honestly want to get you to an airline & help you on your way, call it the 'old school' way of doing things! Unfortunately jobs in this industry isn't all about having the licence, the hours & availability, just like the media industry its all about who you know as well. Most of my FO & Capt friends have got their job by playing a round of golf, a drink in a bar etc etc! (one even by getting married to an ex wife of a Capt!!!!)
Ace, fair enuff you've got your concerns, & your own opinion. oh yeah CAP509? that went out quite a long time ago! (have you done your homework?) & just a small tip (ps not meant to be sarcastic or anything!!!!) have a chat with a few training captains from the airlines (as I have done) & a fair number of them will tell you that, fair enough a FI ticket with 1500 hours is great, but more often than not, they've also got about 1000hrs worth of bad habits which they've now gotta get them out of even before they start training them on a 737!
Well this will be the last post on this subject from me, I refuse to get into a playground fight over peoples different opinions! I really do wish you all the best of luck getting to the airlines Ace, but you'll soon find out theres a very very long way to go.
In reply to your final section... you wont have to wait 12 months, I will personally hope to tell you the good news before that!
hi to civil & ace again by the way...
as far as a % goes civil, they charge less than a grand for their services, no bull, cards are laid out on the table. Not something like 10k which I think everyone imagines! You refer to the fact that like all the other FTO's out there, they're only out there to get your money... I can understand why you're so cynical as I said in an earlier post, most of the FTO's out there are out to get your money, but for some insane crazy reason, these guys I think honestly want to get you to an airline & help you on your way, call it the 'old school' way of doing things! Unfortunately jobs in this industry isn't all about having the licence, the hours & availability, just like the media industry its all about who you know as well. Most of my FO & Capt friends have got their job by playing a round of golf, a drink in a bar etc etc! (one even by getting married to an ex wife of a Capt!!!!)
Ace, fair enuff you've got your concerns, & your own opinion. oh yeah CAP509? that went out quite a long time ago! (have you done your homework?) & just a small tip (ps not meant to be sarcastic or anything!!!!) have a chat with a few training captains from the airlines (as I have done) & a fair number of them will tell you that, fair enough a FI ticket with 1500 hours is great, but more often than not, they've also got about 1000hrs worth of bad habits which they've now gotta get them out of even before they start training them on a 737!
Well this will be the last post on this subject from me, I refuse to get into a playground fight over peoples different opinions! I really do wish you all the best of luck getting to the airlines Ace, but you'll soon find out theres a very very long way to go.
In reply to your final section... you wont have to wait 12 months, I will personally hope to tell you the good news before that!
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Just a short note really. Without giving too much away I am a student with PAC at the moment, and I can honestly say that although there were major problems with the training in the US recently due to various reasons , PAC are honest and trustworthy, and lets face it nothing in life ever goes the way you plan it to. I will say one thing though - stay away from EFT.
Hi schveetie!!!
Hi schveetie!!!
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In light of what has happened to PPSC, 4 Forces and the problems at Oxford, I feel I must let unsuspecting wannabees know further details about this so called College.
I was told that I would need to pay a £750 admin fee which would pay for all the services and training management to help me through my training. As well as that, I would have to do a PPl theory course even though I am a PPL holder, this would cost me £300 and I still had to pay for all the material. I don't think so.
The other concern I have is the lack of flight training provider for this school, considering they charge so much for the "admin, management fee".
Again £2150 For the ATPL theories, resonable, but, they have only one instructor and he's the Director of training, hmmm.
Think people.
BEWARE, don't get caught, ask lots of questions, better still stay away.
I was told that I would need to pay a £750 admin fee which would pay for all the services and training management to help me through my training. As well as that, I would have to do a PPl theory course even though I am a PPL holder, this would cost me £300 and I still had to pay for all the material. I don't think so.
The other concern I have is the lack of flight training provider for this school, considering they charge so much for the "admin, management fee".
Again £2150 For the ATPL theories, resonable, but, they have only one instructor and he's the Director of training, hmmm.
Think people.
BEWARE, don't get caught, ask lots of questions, better still stay away.
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wow, its Puma 2 again!
it seems to me that you somehow have something personal against Pilot assist seeming as you've only ever had 3 posts, one of which was a 'test' to hide your e-mail address (it didn't work by the way), the second an assasination of PAC and lo & behold the third yet another assasination of PAC. so come on Puma 2, are you personally disgruntled? if so, are you sure there's not any other PERSONAL reasons?
For all of you wannabes out there, don't take a sh*t-stirrer's word for it, go to the place, talk to the students (the only ones that matter in this), talk to the Royal Guild of Air Pilots & Air Navigators about the reputation and intentions of PAC. Don't be a sheep listening to so called 'hear say' or people trying to bring the reputation of one of the only honest training providers out there down.
hmmmm.... up the creek without a paddle?
maybe you should Row Row Row your boat....
[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: Bombay B Bandit ]
it seems to me that you somehow have something personal against Pilot assist seeming as you've only ever had 3 posts, one of which was a 'test' to hide your e-mail address (it didn't work by the way), the second an assasination of PAC and lo & behold the third yet another assasination of PAC. so come on Puma 2, are you personally disgruntled? if so, are you sure there's not any other PERSONAL reasons?
For all of you wannabes out there, don't take a sh*t-stirrer's word for it, go to the place, talk to the students (the only ones that matter in this), talk to the Royal Guild of Air Pilots & Air Navigators about the reputation and intentions of PAC. Don't be a sheep listening to so called 'hear say' or people trying to bring the reputation of one of the only honest training providers out there down.
hmmmm.... up the creek without a paddle?
maybe you should Row Row Row your boat....
[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: Bombay B Bandit ]
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PS
for those of you who doubt PAC's airline contacts, I've just got back from a jumpseat ride to a southern european location thanks to them.... believe me it helped boost some motivation into me to get through the ATPLs!
for those of you who doubt PAC's airline contacts, I've just got back from a jumpseat ride to a southern european location thanks to them.... believe me it helped boost some motivation into me to get through the ATPLs!
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I did not want to be caught up in this debate, however it is now time to enter the fray, so to speak.
I am the Head of Training at Pilot Assist and as such am annoyed at this thread. I and my colleagues have put too much work in to making Pilot Assist a success for us and our students to see it tarnished by a person who has an axe to grind.
The facts are that we require a certain level of knowledge to enter our programme and require all students to reach that standard. If a new student has a ppl from whatever training provider, they are required to go through a foundation course at ppl level to revise, refresh and even to gain more knowledge so thier transition into the atpl's is made smoother. As can you see, we do care about our students. The main reason behind this is that the average ppl school pays only lip service to the ppl ground school and just gives the student a ppl confuser to learn.
Yes we charge an admin fee, this is because we do a huge ammount of work on thier behalf and this costs money, the new student is told of this right up front.
The £300 cost of the ppl course is you might say a deposit towards the atpl's and if the student upon completion of thier ppl, enters atpl, the £300 is taken off the cost of the atpl course.
To end this and hopefully for good, I have a staff of nine part time instructors, all of whom are highly motivated and professional and have the students' interest at heart. The College has responded to the requirements of the airlines and the students we train will have a better than average chance of getting the much coverted right hand seat.
Lets all stop throwing teddies about and behave like adults.
I am the Head of Training at Pilot Assist and as such am annoyed at this thread. I and my colleagues have put too much work in to making Pilot Assist a success for us and our students to see it tarnished by a person who has an axe to grind.
The facts are that we require a certain level of knowledge to enter our programme and require all students to reach that standard. If a new student has a ppl from whatever training provider, they are required to go through a foundation course at ppl level to revise, refresh and even to gain more knowledge so thier transition into the atpl's is made smoother. As can you see, we do care about our students. The main reason behind this is that the average ppl school pays only lip service to the ppl ground school and just gives the student a ppl confuser to learn.
Yes we charge an admin fee, this is because we do a huge ammount of work on thier behalf and this costs money, the new student is told of this right up front.
The £300 cost of the ppl course is you might say a deposit towards the atpl's and if the student upon completion of thier ppl, enters atpl, the £300 is taken off the cost of the atpl course.
To end this and hopefully for good, I have a staff of nine part time instructors, all of whom are highly motivated and professional and have the students' interest at heart. The College has responded to the requirements of the airlines and the students we train will have a better than average chance of getting the much coverted right hand seat.
Lets all stop throwing teddies about and behave like adults.
gazelle507.
Hmm. I am deeply sceptical about your scheme as I have seen several people over the years making a tidy living out of offering 'guidance and advice' to Wannabes. As for claims about helping people get airline jobs I hold them in contempt be they from OATS, 02FO or any other shark willing to make such wild claims.
I'll admit that I don't know much about PAC.
What I would like you to do is to email me outlining what it is your business does, who it employs and what you charge.
No flannel please - I have worked in the FTO business and I think I know my onions. If you can convince me that you have a worthwhile product then this will be of great advantage to you - ask PAT or Clive Hughes!
I look forward to your reply with keen interest and a sceptical yet persuadable mind.
Kindest Regards,
WWW
Hmm. I am deeply sceptical about your scheme as I have seen several people over the years making a tidy living out of offering 'guidance and advice' to Wannabes. As for claims about helping people get airline jobs I hold them in contempt be they from OATS, 02FO or any other shark willing to make such wild claims.
I'll admit that I don't know much about PAC.
What I would like you to do is to email me outlining what it is your business does, who it employs and what you charge.
No flannel please - I have worked in the FTO business and I think I know my onions. If you can convince me that you have a worthwhile product then this will be of great advantage to you - ask PAT or Clive Hughes!
I look forward to your reply with keen interest and a sceptical yet persuadable mind.
Kindest Regards,
WWW
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I have to agree with WWW,. I got in touch with PAC and the offer of guidance and advice was on the lines of trying to scare people and that PAC were the only ones who could help. I’ve see this type of approach before in all types of business and it usually leads to people been milked.
I don’t doubt PAC ability to teach. I do think they will try to rip other people off. It’s just my opinion that I have decided to share with you all.
I have to agree with WWW, I got in touch with PAC and the offer of guidance and advice was on the lines of trying to scare people and that PAC were the only ones who could help. I’ve see this type of approach in all types of business and it usually leads to people been milked.
I don’t doubt PAC ability to teach. I do think they will try to rip people off. It’s just my opinion that I have decided to share with all of you.
As for gazelle507 if you can’t take criticism and you’re not willing to listen then you will not improve you business! You may say I’m wrong and you don’t rip people off but that’s not important what is important is the impression I got. You lost a student have you lost any more because of the approach and attitude of PAC?
(Edited to corrected the typo’s)
[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: George T ]
I don’t doubt PAC ability to teach. I do think they will try to rip other people off. It’s just my opinion that I have decided to share with you all.
I have to agree with WWW, I got in touch with PAC and the offer of guidance and advice was on the lines of trying to scare people and that PAC were the only ones who could help. I’ve see this type of approach in all types of business and it usually leads to people been milked.
I don’t doubt PAC ability to teach. I do think they will try to rip people off. It’s just my opinion that I have decided to share with all of you.
As for gazelle507 if you can’t take criticism and you’re not willing to listen then you will not improve you business! You may say I’m wrong and you don’t rip people off but that’s not important what is important is the impression I got. You lost a student have you lost any more because of the approach and attitude of PAC?
(Edited to corrected the typo’s)
[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: George T ]
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Hmnnn,
This is my first ever posting on PPrune but I feel I have something worth saying as regards Pilot Assist College.
So far it has only been those affiliated with Pilot Assist college that have had anything to say largely in its favour. I am not currently a Pilot Assist student, however my experience with Pilot Assist is not one of Scare Tactics, Money Grabbing antics or Inconsistencies. Bar the relatively few sponsorship opportunities in this country obtaining that position in the right hand seat with a minimum of 200 hrs is like jumping from a driving license to an F1 racer.
Ive never been more dispondant than coming away from some of the larger, well-established training organisations that have no interest in whether or not I had the aptitude, intelligence or at the very least the motivation to succeed. I had the cash to pay them and that was all that mattered. How uneasy we would feel if doctors could buy their way to their qualifications. Flight training is expensive, of that there is no doubt, but the same rigorous requirements for entry into top universities should be applicable to flight training schools to protect both parties.
Pilot Assist is the ONLY college to have taken a look at the bigger picture with me, my aptitude, my qualifications and my personal qualities. Make no mistake, had I not met up to their selective requirements Id have been shown the door, no matter how much money I laid on the table. Indeed, it is because pilot assist is a new company that i have faith in them - much rests on the line as far as the founders reputations are concerned. Only those who they believe (these guys have experience here) to possess the qualities the airlines are looking for are offered a place to recieve an excellent level of training and that all important airline prep. That little bit extra that will get that position in the aviation equivalent of the F1 racer that the larger establishments fail to offer.
There are no guarantees in this business - Pilot Assist, I dont believe, are making out to be a job agency. Rather a facilitater where should the student pull their weight, then rather than a 'goodbye' once the ATPL has been obtained the final and biggest hurdle is then jumped with you but not for you.
This is a refreshing approach to flight training - its far easier to see the bad than the good in anything in life - but lets gets behind this one, it could be ground breaking in a very positive manner.
[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: First Officer Morrell ]
This is my first ever posting on PPrune but I feel I have something worth saying as regards Pilot Assist College.
So far it has only been those affiliated with Pilot Assist college that have had anything to say largely in its favour. I am not currently a Pilot Assist student, however my experience with Pilot Assist is not one of Scare Tactics, Money Grabbing antics or Inconsistencies. Bar the relatively few sponsorship opportunities in this country obtaining that position in the right hand seat with a minimum of 200 hrs is like jumping from a driving license to an F1 racer.
Ive never been more dispondant than coming away from some of the larger, well-established training organisations that have no interest in whether or not I had the aptitude, intelligence or at the very least the motivation to succeed. I had the cash to pay them and that was all that mattered. How uneasy we would feel if doctors could buy their way to their qualifications. Flight training is expensive, of that there is no doubt, but the same rigorous requirements for entry into top universities should be applicable to flight training schools to protect both parties.
Pilot Assist is the ONLY college to have taken a look at the bigger picture with me, my aptitude, my qualifications and my personal qualities. Make no mistake, had I not met up to their selective requirements Id have been shown the door, no matter how much money I laid on the table. Indeed, it is because pilot assist is a new company that i have faith in them - much rests on the line as far as the founders reputations are concerned. Only those who they believe (these guys have experience here) to possess the qualities the airlines are looking for are offered a place to recieve an excellent level of training and that all important airline prep. That little bit extra that will get that position in the aviation equivalent of the F1 racer that the larger establishments fail to offer.
There are no guarantees in this business - Pilot Assist, I dont believe, are making out to be a job agency. Rather a facilitater where should the student pull their weight, then rather than a 'goodbye' once the ATPL has been obtained the final and biggest hurdle is then jumped with you but not for you.
This is a refreshing approach to flight training - its far easier to see the bad than the good in anything in life - but lets gets behind this one, it could be ground breaking in a very positive manner.
[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: First Officer Morrell ]
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I agree with the sentiments in principle - it would be good to have training schools operating in a way not unlike the universities where ability and motivation are important pre-requisites for entry rather than just £50k in you pocket. It was this belief that got me along to Pilot Assist in the first place. But after a lot of posturing I just couldn't be persuaded that the company were going to ring the changes - I felt the skills and experience base amongst those working there was simply not as great as some of the other more established schools. Plus there seemed to be a flaw. I currently work in an industry where barriers to entry are high in that it is very difficult to get a foot in the door, not unlike aviation. My current industry will never change as many feel this is a good filter to test indivuals'mettle i.e. if you cannot see your way through this process then you may not want the career enough. I know this is an old-school point of view, but I certainly felt when I went to the Pilot Assist seminar that they were offering some sort of short cut and offers like that can attract the wrong people to a career.
I think the notion of tighter vetting for self sponsored students, allowing a school to develop a not-entirely-commercially-minded reputation, is an excellent one, but having witnessed the reality of the proposal I think it is going to take a while for Pilot Assist to genuinely offer the niche service they talk of.
I stress the above are my opinions based on visiting Pilot Assist college.
I think the notion of tighter vetting for self sponsored students, allowing a school to develop a not-entirely-commercially-minded reputation, is an excellent one, but having witnessed the reality of the proposal I think it is going to take a while for Pilot Assist to genuinely offer the niche service they talk of.
I stress the above are my opinions based on visiting Pilot Assist college.
