Age and life experience vs. job prospects
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Age and life experience vs. job prospects
Hello,
On this forum I have read many arguments regarding whether you should go to university or not, advice to people straight out of GCSE’s wanting to start commercial training; the advice in general has seemed sensible. I was hoping that the forum contributors would be kind enough to give me some advice tailored to my specific situation.
The background to my situation is that I have finished school with good grades; straight A’s at 3 science a-levels and am currently in my second year of university, on track for a good degree. I am learning to fly at the moment part time, just really aiming initially for PPL - nothing more while at university. I have had one years work experience in I.T., I should get a good reference from my former employer, moving into R&D and given a company car etc. while still 18, hopefully demonstrating some maturity on my part. My first question is about work experience. I am in the fortunate position to have the ability to fund commercial training at the moment, so theoretically I could start immediately after university finishes. Are airlines etc. going to be unimpressed with only one years work experience; would you advice I go and get a job after university before starting training? I asked this before to ‘Hamrah’ at the gatbash seminars, he said it probably would be a good idea. What do you think? Second question is regarding modular or integrated training. Would training at OAT be worthwhile compared to say my current local flight school (bearing in mind that training at OAT wouldn't bring me debt)? Many thanks for your help,
Tom.
On this forum I have read many arguments regarding whether you should go to university or not, advice to people straight out of GCSE’s wanting to start commercial training; the advice in general has seemed sensible. I was hoping that the forum contributors would be kind enough to give me some advice tailored to my specific situation.
The background to my situation is that I have finished school with good grades; straight A’s at 3 science a-levels and am currently in my second year of university, on track for a good degree. I am learning to fly at the moment part time, just really aiming initially for PPL - nothing more while at university. I have had one years work experience in I.T., I should get a good reference from my former employer, moving into R&D and given a company car etc. while still 18, hopefully demonstrating some maturity on my part. My first question is about work experience. I am in the fortunate position to have the ability to fund commercial training at the moment, so theoretically I could start immediately after university finishes. Are airlines etc. going to be unimpressed with only one years work experience; would you advice I go and get a job after university before starting training? I asked this before to ‘Hamrah’ at the gatbash seminars, he said it probably would be a good idea. What do you think? Second question is regarding modular or integrated training. Would training at OAT be worthwhile compared to say my current local flight school (bearing in mind that training at OAT wouldn't bring me debt)? Many thanks for your help,
Tom.
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As you say that funding your license is not an issue, I'd say get that CPL/IR straight away and use IT as your fall back career or for something to pay the bills while sending off the CVs to the airlines. After all you should only be out of circulation just over a year. If you need to get an IT job you can tell them you were backpacking.
As for the Modular vs. Integrated argument, if cost really is no object at all then integrated makes sense. Coming straight from Uni, 15 months of full-time structured training with accommodation paid for etc. may be just right for you.
However in this day and age the old self-improver(modular)/CAP509(integrated) prejudice is supposedly starting to break down in the airlines, so it may be worth asking yourself whether it is really worth spending the extra dosh on the big name integrated school. Oxford seems to be the place to be, if money is no object.
Personally I went modular with a smaller school, I could have gone integrated, but felt that as I already had a PPL it would be a waste of money to revisit that.
All in all, don't worry about the fracas on that other thread: you seem to be thinking it through properly which is the main thing. I can't comment from an airline perspective, this is based on my observations as an underemployed job CPL/IR.
Best of luck,
foggy.
As for the Modular vs. Integrated argument, if cost really is no object at all then integrated makes sense. Coming straight from Uni, 15 months of full-time structured training with accommodation paid for etc. may be just right for you.
However in this day and age the old self-improver(modular)/CAP509(integrated) prejudice is supposedly starting to break down in the airlines, so it may be worth asking yourself whether it is really worth spending the extra dosh on the big name integrated school. Oxford seems to be the place to be, if money is no object.
Personally I went modular with a smaller school, I could have gone integrated, but felt that as I already had a PPL it would be a waste of money to revisit that.
All in all, don't worry about the fracas on that other thread: you seem to be thinking it through properly which is the main thing. I can't comment from an airline perspective, this is based on my observations as an underemployed job CPL/IR.
Best of luck,
foggy.
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Hey foggy,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I am glad you think my initial plan of action is not too out of line. I have just enough to do the course at OAT, but not much after that in case of disaster. Therefore I am seriously considering living at home and learning in a modular fashion at my local school; and then distance learning the ATPL theory from Bristol. This could leave me enough after to try and live on while job hunting. Realistically this is all speculation until I get my class 1, although the Dr. that tested me for the class 2 thought I would have no problems.
With regard to the total work experience, I guess I have to take the point of view that there are young pilots out there, so I might be lucky enough to succeed also.
Foggy, as “an underemployed job CPL/IR” I hope you succeed in finding a job soon!
Cheers,
Tom.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I am glad you think my initial plan of action is not too out of line. I have just enough to do the course at OAT, but not much after that in case of disaster. Therefore I am seriously considering living at home and learning in a modular fashion at my local school; and then distance learning the ATPL theory from Bristol. This could leave me enough after to try and live on while job hunting. Realistically this is all speculation until I get my class 1, although the Dr. that tested me for the class 2 thought I would have no problems.
With regard to the total work experience, I guess I have to take the point of view that there are young pilots out there, so I might be lucky enough to succeed also.
Foggy, as “an underemployed job CPL/IR” I hope you succeed in finding a job soon!
Cheers,
Tom.
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Oops, it was late - should have been "underemployed CPL/IR"!
I think the main issue with the work experience is to have enough of a fall back plan to keep you alive and flying privately if times go really tough (that's as opposed to the usual tough times ie when hiring is supposedly 'good': it's all relative).
At the most, do a year's work experience and then go integrated. That should time your arrival on the job market for when things are really starting to pick up, plus will keep the plan B warm, as it were.
I got my IR issued on September 12th 2001. I'm bloody glad that I have a fall back career, I can tell you.
cheers!
foggy.
I think the main issue with the work experience is to have enough of a fall back plan to keep you alive and flying privately if times go really tough (that's as opposed to the usual tough times ie when hiring is supposedly 'good': it's all relative).
At the most, do a year's work experience and then go integrated. That should time your arrival on the job market for when things are really starting to pick up, plus will keep the plan B warm, as it were.
I got my IR issued on September 12th 2001. I'm bloody glad that I have a fall back career, I can tell you.
cheers!
foggy.
Last edited by foghorn; 9th Jun 2002 at 13:59.
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Work experience is not really an issue for the airlines; they are in the business of employing pilots, not (at least for our purposes) IT people. Maturity, or lack of it, is of course an issue, but it doesn't sound to me like you'd have a problem on that score. Remember, in normal times, airlines like to get their new FOs as young as possible (but after A-levels or degrees!).
However, times aren't normal and you do need to consider the back-up plan. It may well be that if IT is to be your alternative it would be wise to do a year in industry before you attempt full-time flying training, just so that you are that bit more employeble in IT if you should have to go back to it.
As for the modular vs integrated question, if you can afford it I'd personally recommend integrated simply because the continuity and intensity of the training is more likely to produce the desired result. There is, or at least should be, no competetive advantage for potential employers whether you are an integrated or modular graduate, or where you did your training. It's also true to say that, if you can do back-to-back modules, the continuity advantage of integrated is reduced.
Hope this helps!
However, times aren't normal and you do need to consider the back-up plan. It may well be that if IT is to be your alternative it would be wise to do a year in industry before you attempt full-time flying training, just so that you are that bit more employeble in IT if you should have to go back to it.
As for the modular vs integrated question, if you can afford it I'd personally recommend integrated simply because the continuity and intensity of the training is more likely to produce the desired result. There is, or at least should be, no competetive advantage for potential employers whether you are an integrated or modular graduate, or where you did your training. It's also true to say that, if you can do back-to-back modules, the continuity advantage of integrated is reduced.
Hope this helps!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Remember with your budgeting to add at least 30% for money and up to 50% for time. Weather and other unforseen events can take over.
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I'd just like to back scroggs' comment up by saying that the well known charter airline that I work for [albeit in a non-flying capacity] would prefer to take FOs on who are in their early twenties because they can - as they say - mould them into the pilots that they want without them having the hangups that people tend to gain as they get older.
Whatever you chose tom775257, make the most of it.
MB
Whatever you chose tom775257, make the most of it.
MB
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If you really want Oxford, but think that distance learning would be more sensible budgeting, don't forget that Oxford is not just the residential full-time integrated. They do modular - both the 5 months ground-school only course, and also distance learning.
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Your plan certainly sounds sensible to me. However, as someone who's nearly half way through the distance learning course at Bristol, I'd suggest you do the ATPL exams full-time. I'm unable to do this, because I have to work full time in order to pay the bills - but distance learning really is hard work, and if you can afford the time and the money I'd definitely go for full-time studying.
Having said that, if you do decide to go for distance learning, Bristol is an excellent choice, IMHO. But you'll need to get the PPL sorted out before you start worrying about that too much.
Good luck!
FFF
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Having said that, if you do decide to go for distance learning, Bristol is an excellent choice, IMHO. But you'll need to get the PPL sorted out before you start worrying about that too much.
Good luck!
FFF
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Get some flying under your belt before making too many long-term
decisions. A bagful of dosh does not mean you will make the grade - there are many who have fallen beside the wayside - make sure you want to do this and make sure you have the basic
ability. It is a strange business to get involved with - why not go
to the military for a few years and get paid to learn your trade -
when you leave, in all probability the market will be rather different than today.
decisions. A bagful of dosh does not mean you will make the grade - there are many who have fallen beside the wayside - make sure you want to do this and make sure you have the basic
ability. It is a strange business to get involved with - why not go
to the military for a few years and get paid to learn your trade -
when you leave, in all probability the market will be rather different than today.
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Hi all,
Beamer:
Yes, I do plan to get some flying under my belt before committing to commercial training – at least 1 years private flying. Regarding the military; I believe a prerequisite for joining the RAF is that you would be willing to kill, or be killed. I am afraid I do not believe I could kill someone. I have however been on a military full motion aircraft simulator for an hour, and the feedback I received was positive about my potential as a pilot. Thankfully I have also progressed well in private training (although I realise this isn’t any where near the standard required for commercial ops). I truly realise money doesn’t give you a licence; however it is one of the many hurdles along the way. The next hurdle for me is the class 1 medical. I am training at the moment to get fitter than I am, with the idea of trying to get the class 1 early in my 3rd year of university. This will give me time to apply to do a PhD if I fail the medical.
FFF: Thanks for the advice. Yeah, PPL is the order of the day at the moment, just forward planning. If I want to try to do this as a career, I want to have a sound plan before starting.
Oxford blue: Fair enough, however my current school does teach a modular commercial course, and I could live at home....much cheaper!
Monkeyboy: Pleasing to hear about some companies preferring younger people as FO’s.
Redsnail: Wow, I wasn’t counting on that re: money. Time should not be an issue thankfully. Money will be after a certain amount. If I do go with OAT integrated, is the figure quoted the amount it will cost, or are there lots of hidden extras? I realise if you fail exams it will cost more...
Scroggs: Back-up plan a must I agree. I have two paths I could follow: I.T. in which I have still a few links to, or genetics. Sadly when I emerge from university with a genetics degree, no one will hire me without a PhD. I must make a decision fairly soon as to whether to try to become a pilot, or apply for a PhD. That is why the class 1 medical is weighing on my mind more than 1 year before I even want to consider starting. Thanks for the advice regarding modular vs. intergrated.
Foggy: Wow, that is harsh regarding the timing of when you finished training! Best of luck mate, I am sure (and hope) you will get the job you deserve in the end.
I guess I would hope to be turned out of a school somewhere somehow with required qualifications late 2004 on current plan.
Thanks all for taking the time to reply.
Cheers,
Tom.
Beamer:
Yes, I do plan to get some flying under my belt before committing to commercial training – at least 1 years private flying. Regarding the military; I believe a prerequisite for joining the RAF is that you would be willing to kill, or be killed. I am afraid I do not believe I could kill someone. I have however been on a military full motion aircraft simulator for an hour, and the feedback I received was positive about my potential as a pilot. Thankfully I have also progressed well in private training (although I realise this isn’t any where near the standard required for commercial ops). I truly realise money doesn’t give you a licence; however it is one of the many hurdles along the way. The next hurdle for me is the class 1 medical. I am training at the moment to get fitter than I am, with the idea of trying to get the class 1 early in my 3rd year of university. This will give me time to apply to do a PhD if I fail the medical.
FFF: Thanks for the advice. Yeah, PPL is the order of the day at the moment, just forward planning. If I want to try to do this as a career, I want to have a sound plan before starting.
Oxford blue: Fair enough, however my current school does teach a modular commercial course, and I could live at home....much cheaper!
Monkeyboy: Pleasing to hear about some companies preferring younger people as FO’s.
Redsnail: Wow, I wasn’t counting on that re: money. Time should not be an issue thankfully. Money will be after a certain amount. If I do go with OAT integrated, is the figure quoted the amount it will cost, or are there lots of hidden extras? I realise if you fail exams it will cost more...
Scroggs: Back-up plan a must I agree. I have two paths I could follow: I.T. in which I have still a few links to, or genetics. Sadly when I emerge from university with a genetics degree, no one will hire me without a PhD. I must make a decision fairly soon as to whether to try to become a pilot, or apply for a PhD. That is why the class 1 medical is weighing on my mind more than 1 year before I even want to consider starting. Thanks for the advice regarding modular vs. intergrated.
Foggy: Wow, that is harsh regarding the timing of when you finished training! Best of luck mate, I am sure (and hope) you will get the job you deserve in the end.
I guess I would hope to be turned out of a school somewhere somehow with required qualifications late 2004 on current plan.
Thanks all for taking the time to reply.
Cheers,
Tom.
Last edited by tom775257; 13th Jun 2002 at 00:46.
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Tom,
At your age and your obvious brains and ability to study to a high standard, assuming you are medically fit, your best choice seems clear to me. Complete a good uni degree, bad ones are too common. Get some work experience in that profession to the point where you are attractive to employers in the future. JOIN the military! You get paid, the best instruction because you get more of it and a bigger variety, if you like it, stay in, if you don't you will be much more attractive to companies than your civilian counterpart who has probably paid for 100 hours flying per year without getting command time on big aircraft. Don't spend 25 years in the military if you want to be in airlines as by that time you might be too brainwashed!
Remember any pilot can lose his license medically any time, so your fall back career is important, just like sports stars.
As for killing or being killed, it happens to civilian pilots too, being killed that is! You don't have to choose to be a fighter pilot all your life
I did 5 years in the military, 1500 hours, twins, instrument time, etc and jobs have always been easy to get, even in the hard times.
At your age and your obvious brains and ability to study to a high standard, assuming you are medically fit, your best choice seems clear to me. Complete a good uni degree, bad ones are too common. Get some work experience in that profession to the point where you are attractive to employers in the future. JOIN the military! You get paid, the best instruction because you get more of it and a bigger variety, if you like it, stay in, if you don't you will be much more attractive to companies than your civilian counterpart who has probably paid for 100 hours flying per year without getting command time on big aircraft. Don't spend 25 years in the military if you want to be in airlines as by that time you might be too brainwashed!
Remember any pilot can lose his license medically any time, so your fall back career is important, just like sports stars.
As for killing or being killed, it happens to civilian pilots too, being killed that is! You don't have to choose to be a fighter pilot all your life
I did 5 years in the military, 1500 hours, twins, instrument time, etc and jobs have always been easy to get, even in the hard times.
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Tom,
you make the class 1 medical sound very onerous! It isn't. All it does is check that you are averagely fit with no medical timebombs waiting to nip your career in the bud. It's unlikely that any fitness programme you could undertake would seriously affect your chances of passing, with perhaps the exceptions of being excessivly overweight or having high blood pressure due solely to diet.
Do it sooner rather than later - it'll make your decision-making easier!
you make the class 1 medical sound very onerous! It isn't. All it does is check that you are averagely fit with no medical timebombs waiting to nip your career in the bud. It's unlikely that any fitness programme you could undertake would seriously affect your chances of passing, with perhaps the exceptions of being excessivly overweight or having high blood pressure due solely to diet.
Do it sooner rather than later - it'll make your decision-making easier!
