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Correct time logging EASA

Old 9th Dec 2013, 08:10
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
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you definitely can't use hobbs for logging flight hours, its is linked too load factor of the engine and has nothing to do with time. Its not a valid way of logging time for log book purposes.

You can though run it to your advantage when hour building by running the engine just in the green arc. That means you will be billed for approximately 80% of what you actually fly in hours.
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Old 9th Dec 2013, 09:49
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I think you might be confusing the tachometer with the hobbsmeter?
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Old 9th Dec 2013, 09:54
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Aye true but your still not meant to use it.

What's so hard about taking the time you taxi and when you stop taxing after the flight?
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Old 9th Dec 2013, 12:34
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mr.piloot View Post
We are logging time by means off the hobbs timer in my FTO.

The hobbs timer start counting from engine start till engine stop ( detects oil pressure), engine start is maybe 1 or 2 min before we start taxi, so ist kind like block hours.

The hobbs timers works in ticks of 6 min, sometimes 10 sec after engine start it does the first tick and i have 6 min "flown" on the other hand, some times you can be 5 min and 50 sec in the "tick" at engine stop ant dont have the full 6 min's , so the 5min 50 sec will not be logged in the book.

In avarage this will cancel each other more or less. Sometimes i have 6 min " extra" sometimes not

Let's call that what it is. Fraud.

This FTO is encouraging its pilots to fraudulently log hours (or at-least minutes) to which they were not entitled.

Unless checks are incredibly gash, most flights include at-least 5 minutes of engine running time before, then after, the flight (particularly if you include a minute or so shutting everything down after turning the engine off when there's still power and oil pressure). So basically this is artificially adding 5 minutes (or whatever the figure is) to the legitimate time per flight.

Over a typical PPL course, that's 4 hours being logged to which the student wasn't entitled.

Fraud, and no amount of dressing it up or using thumbs-up smileys changes that.

Charging by Hobbs is perfectly legitimate. Logging by Hobbs almost never is.

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 9th Dec 2013 at 14:20.
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Old 9th Dec 2013, 12:38
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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The same in the FAA world

FARs, PART 1—DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS

§1.1 General definitions.

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;

Last edited by maximus610; 20th Dec 2013 at 19:42. Reason: spelling
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Old 9th Dec 2013, 18:24
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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It's not rocket science but many people do seek out convoluted alternate methods for no apparent reason.

The idea of using flight time + x minutes is approved for when UK military pilots are translating their military logbooks into civil hours. Under military regs only flight time (t/o to ldg) is logged. The CAA allow specified additions to allow for taxy time.

For civvy pilots just log off blocks to on blocks. Simples. Any other method that the flying club uses for billing is irrelevant.
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Old 11th Dec 2013, 21:21
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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o well than every pilot in my FTO is frauding ?

As said flight time starts when the a/c starts moving under own power, and stops when parking the plane, as also said when intended to fly ! The hobbs timer starts counting from moment you start the engine, so maybe 1 min before taxi and stops when turning it off.
We can't just taxi around and log this as flight time or start the engine and stay stationary for 20 min. I had a solo flight on a day and i had a alternator failure when approaching the holding point at the runway, i taxied back and those " hours " are never been logged.

@ Genghis the Engineer;

don't point the finger to me, this is what i have been doing since day 1, if this is the wrong way doing it, than my FTO is in fault ! And btw a ppl course conducts 60 hrs in my FTO, so don't worry, i had enough training . And you are talking about a couples of minutes, maybe we can start logging down to the second to be sure ? And yes here is the smiley again
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Old 12th Dec 2013, 09:17
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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An FTO who tell students to fraudulently over-log hours, presumably also telling them to ignore the air law they've studied, do system checks with student pilots in under 60 seconds, inflate the minimum 45 hour PPL course to 60 hours.

Fascinating, as my old friend Dr Spock used to say.
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Old 12th Dec 2013, 09:40
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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In fact name the school and then hopefully there next inspection will sort this illegal nonsense out.
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Old 12th Dec 2013, 10:47
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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So just start the engine and allow the aircraft to roll forward a few feet before you commence all your checks - as soon as the aircraft has moved you can begin to log the time.
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Old 12th Dec 2013, 11:51
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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In fact name the school and then hopefully there next inspection will sort this illegal nonsense out.
I think the list of schools would be so long you couldn't publish it.

Although most schools have in their manuals how it should be logged - most just use a good old Hobbs meter for both billing and record of flight time.

I'm not endorsing the behaviour in any way - it's just what happens at a lot more places than you think.
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Old 12th Dec 2013, 14:19
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't have thought so all the schools I have had contact with does chocks off to chocks on.

And as they all now have to submit ops manuals maybe this shite will be stopped.
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Old 12th Dec 2013, 14:40
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Where I teach we log brakes off to brakes on for logbook time - why is it so difficult?
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Old 12th Dec 2013, 14:48
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Pay for taxi time?

To taxi an aircraft does not cost the school much, no engine time and hardly any fuel consumption, and yet most schools charges flying time for this.

One school, Southsweden.se, charges only for airborne time, and yet allows the student to log from blocks-off to blocks-on. Anybody knows more schools that does this?
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Old 13th Dec 2013, 18:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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for now on i will do it that way, starting the engine without holding the brakes, the planes moves (with intent to fly) a couple of centimeter, the hobbs timer started at engine start, so everybody is happy
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 20:04
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I went to a certain FTO to do their integrated course around 10 years ago. We were told to log airborne to landing plus 10 minutes before and 5 minutes after. If I'd logged brakes on / off, I would not have been able to finish the course in the time provided.

Whilst I completely agree the correct legal method of logging times is brakes off to brakes on, I would argue that the CAA signed off this "approved" integrated course and have given tacit agreement to the former method. There must be literally thousands of us who "fraudulently" obtained our CPLs.

Interestingly, how many of us log block times, ie including pushback and engine start?
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Old 15th Dec 2013, 05:25
  #37 (permalink)  
maf
 
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Hmmm.. This is getting interesting.

The school I attend in FL,USA (and all students Ive met on this airport coming in from other schools on x-country) log tachotime.

IF thats not the legal way of doing it, Im really scratching my head to what is going on..

I will also add: The flying club I started out with in Norway, logged the clock as we entered the runway and as we taxied off, then always added 10 min of taxi regardless of actual taxitime..

I gotta ask about this on monday. I shure dont like what Im reading in here..
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Old 15th Dec 2013, 07:00
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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The only thing you can do is check the air navigation order for your own country that you intend to stay with.

A lot of this comes from the years when it was ex-mil pilots who were the ops inspectors and flight examiners in the UK. In the British Mil you only ever logged your flight time ie when the rubber wasn't touching the runway. So all this business of when the aircraft first moved for the intention of flight was consider to be a load of rubbish. So they basically said yes to pretty much anything to do with it as the only thing they considered worthy was time in the air. And they certainly didn't want people to get credit for sitting at the hold for 20mins.

These rules of thumb pretty much work for 99% of the time. As long as nobody really looks at what's going on from outside.

Tacho time is particularly dodgy as its actually an engine load function. Which some allow you to use for maintenance scheduling. You can alter it quite significantly if you know what you are doing.

For example when I was doing my hour building I to was billed and filled in the techlog using tacho as per the schools instructions. But I used to fly long sectors at just inside the green arc slowly which gave a tacho load of about 0.8 (it goes up to 1.4 at 100% rpm or something like that). When ever in the US I had a local log book as I was warned that some US instructors liked to write there days thoughts all over your log book which you had to use for the rest of your life. So I had my JAR logbook separate and logged the US stuff as the school wanted and let the instructor scribble all over it and then wrote my true hours up in the JAR log book and threw away the US one after I had no requirement to have the bi-annual sign-off. If I had logged it that way and the FAA instructors had seen it they would have had a hissy fit.

The one lad that stupidly got caught with two log books got told he was in breach of private flying rules because he was logging "free" hours and that was a benefit in kind. Which is of course rubbish because he paid for everyone of them it just it worked out that the rate was lower than the school was charging. They are really not happy either when they learn that there scribbles are getting consigned to the bucket.

But the JAR log book was chocks off to chocks on. Which meant I only paid for 80% of the hours logged. So was about 1500 USD saving on hour building.

Same with the others courses back in the UK. For the course hours the school agreed method was used along with payment. But the actual hours logged were chocks on to chocks off. Training out of an international airport this meant that I didn't have to hour build 6.5 hours to get 200 hours for license issue or start my FI course and also got me over the magic 50hours twin time.

So by logging the time as per the ANO and not the school method I saved paying extra on over 10% of the hours required for CPL/IR/MEP/FI coming out with 225hours TT and 51 hours MEP. So 5 hours of which was very expensive twin time. So a saving of 4000 USD.

So its actually in your own advantage to log the hours properly.

Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Dec 2013 at 07:21.
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Old 15th Dec 2013, 07:56
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The legal way of logging hours depends on your licence. ESASA licence means EASA rules, FAA licence means FAA rules.
You can be a PIC under FAA and not a PIC under EASA for the same flight.
etc.
Having 2 logbooks if you have 2 licences seems to be a good idea.

The techlog of the aircraft is another thing: it depends on the country of registration. To that respect I'm a little confused as it does not seem to be the same thing all over Europe. For instance if you fly a French registered aircraft, the rule is off block to on block on the techlog, just as the EASA rule for aircrews. In the UK it seems that only the actual airborne time is logged.

Part Q is still different. It's off block till on block or till the engines are out. I don't know if companies keep 2 sets of flight time logs for their pilots, part Q flight time and Aircrew flight time.
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Old 15th Dec 2013, 10:32
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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There are differences between EU and US definitions of when you can log it at-all, but I've yet to come across any country where civil aviation logs the actual duration of flights on any basis other than chock-to-chock.

I love aeroplanes billed on tacho, for all the reasons Jock says, but I'm still logging chock-to-chock.
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