Pilot Training College - Florida Ops closure
Who said you have to go to OAA, FTE & CTC, or any other school that requires complete payment in advance? Most of the old hands on this website have been singing the 'Don't pay upfront' mantra for many, many years. We've seen lots of schools go tits up, leaving students out of pocket. Not the first time and certainly not the last.
If you feel so strongly that going to a school that requires payment upfront is good way to leapfrog your career, then don't blame anyone else if your money disappears. To address your comment: It's precisely because you *don't* know what's happening with the book keeping in *any* business that you don't pay upfront any more than you're prepared to lose. Or you wear the cost of someone taking that risk on your behalf by arranging insurance. You don't have a contractor build a house for you & pay the whole sum ahead of time so why would you think that's a normal way (or even a reasonable way) to conduct the business of your flying training?
If you feel so strongly that going to a school that requires payment upfront is good way to leapfrog your career, then don't blame anyone else if your money disappears. To address your comment: It's precisely because you *don't* know what's happening with the book keeping in *any* business that you don't pay upfront any more than you're prepared to lose. Or you wear the cost of someone taking that risk on your behalf by arranging insurance. You don't have a contractor build a house for you & pay the whole sum ahead of time so why would you think that's a normal way (or even a reasonable way) to conduct the business of your flying training?
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 23rd Jul 2012 at 05:18.
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I didn't say you have to go to any of them schools, I was giving examples. Can you give me any examples of Integrated schools which don't require students to be 'well in credit'.
To address your comments. First of all, I don't feel "so strongly that going to a school that requires payment up front is a good way to leapfrog MY career". I felt the best way to leapfrog my career was to get on a sponsored cadet scheme with an airline, that's what I done, that's where I was supposed to train. And who am I blaming, and when have I blamed anyone?
Don't jump to conclusions, sir....
To address your comments. First of all, I don't feel "so strongly that going to a school that requires payment up front is a good way to leapfrog MY career". I felt the best way to leapfrog my career was to get on a sponsored cadet scheme with an airline, that's what I done, that's where I was supposed to train. And who am I blaming, and when have I blamed anyone?
Don't jump to conclusions, sir....
Like I wrote: You didn't *have* to do the training path you attempted - and perhaps completed (and if completed, good for you!). You *chose* to do it, along with the upfront payment, in the hope that you would leap into the cockpit of a shiny jet.
Some amount 'in credit', as you put it, is not necessarily the same as a complete payment up front that lacks even a basic funds protection or preservation mechanism. There certainly isn't a *requirement* to do training via an integrated route. Non-integrated is also available - and nearly always cheaper. If you can't negotiate a satisfactory protected payments program at an integrated school then walk away. You don't need their services as much as they want your money. There is always an alternative way to train.
Some amount 'in credit', as you put it, is not necessarily the same as a complete payment up front that lacks even a basic funds protection or preservation mechanism. There certainly isn't a *requirement* to do training via an integrated route. Non-integrated is also available - and nearly always cheaper. If you can't negotiate a satisfactory protected payments program at an integrated school then walk away. You don't need their services as much as they want your money. There is always an alternative way to train.
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Just another member of the 'I know better than you' club. Like it or not, that is the way of the world now. And yes you do pay for your house in advance, the mortgage company does then you are liable (for three times it's value)
What you should be criticising is the Mike EDGEWORTH family, but no, kick the victim instead. Guess when someone is mugged it is their fault for being in that part of town...
What you should be criticising is the Mike EDGEWORTH family, but no, kick the victim instead. Guess when someone is mugged it is their fault for being in that part of town...
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FROM BOARDS.ie
This is all Public Knowledge, I am not outing anyone or anything. There is nothing here that is not accessible by anyone at anytime.
Perhaps the money is here somewhere?
Shemburn Ltd (Michael Edgeworth, Diarmud Maher, Anthony Howard Kember, George Edgeworth}
Pilot Training College of IRELAND Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, George Michael Edgeworth, Judith Mary Kember, Anthony Howard Kember, Ann Edgeworth, Michael Flynn, John Donlan, Porema ltd)
Pilot Training College CAMBRIDGE Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth)
A and O Properties Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ruth Edgeworth, Harry Everard)
Aircraft Technical Support Ireland Limited (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Laura Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Andrew Fleming, Paula Horan, Gill Hanlon,)
Pilot Training Systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Mike Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Declan Walsh, Private research ltd,)
RTF systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Ciaran Doyle, Anthony Howard Kember, Declan Walsh)
Skytrace Limted (Michael Edgeworth, George Edgeworth, George M. Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Victor Ostapenko)
Alphatel Ltd (Michael James Edgeworth, Declan Walsh, Porema Limited, Marc O’Connor, Sean Kavanah)
ATS Telecommunications Ltd (M.J. Edgeworth)
Wolcar Ltd (George Michael Edgeworth, Michael Roche, Francisco Dominguez, Brendan Glynn, Mary Glynn)
Plus in Florida
Pilot Training College llc
PTC RE llc (with Paul Glover)
Allgifts llc
N4923T llc (with Lorraine Skinner)
This is all Public Knowledge, I am not outing anyone or anything. There is nothing here that is not accessible by anyone at anytime.
Perhaps the money is here somewhere?
Shemburn Ltd (Michael Edgeworth, Diarmud Maher, Anthony Howard Kember, George Edgeworth}
Pilot Training College of IRELAND Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, George Michael Edgeworth, Judith Mary Kember, Anthony Howard Kember, Ann Edgeworth, Michael Flynn, John Donlan, Porema ltd)
Pilot Training College CAMBRIDGE Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth)
A and O Properties Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ruth Edgeworth, Harry Everard)
Aircraft Technical Support Ireland Limited (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Laura Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Andrew Fleming, Paula Horan, Gill Hanlon,)
Pilot Training Systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Mike Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Declan Walsh, Private research ltd,)
RTF systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Ciaran Doyle, Anthony Howard Kember, Declan Walsh)
Skytrace Limted (Michael Edgeworth, George Edgeworth, George M. Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Victor Ostapenko)
Alphatel Ltd (Michael James Edgeworth, Declan Walsh, Porema Limited, Marc O’Connor, Sean Kavanah)
ATS Telecommunications Ltd (M.J. Edgeworth)
Wolcar Ltd (George Michael Edgeworth, Michael Roche, Francisco Dominguez, Brendan Glynn, Mary Glynn)
Plus in Florida
Pilot Training College llc
PTC RE llc (with Paul Glover)
Allgifts llc
N4923T llc (with Lorraine Skinner)
Last edited by pilotbear; 23rd Jul 2012 at 17:17.
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This argument about the wisdom of up-front payment is only forming a circular firing squad.
This isn’t a case of petty pilferage or minor white collar fiddling.
This is a CRIME OF ASTRONOMICAL PROPORTIONS with effects and ramifications for PTC students and their families that will stretch on for decades.
They have fallen victim to probably the most morally bankrupt greed-ridden predatory scumbag ever to have leeched on the dreams and ambitions of young people starting their working lives.
I’m no lawyer, but I imagine that rather than sniping at each other from separate trenches it would be wiser to consolidate the forces of all aggrieved parties.
The first order of business would be to locate the legendry ‘Captain’ asap - either fiscally or physically.
Every hour this ratbag is allowed to hide under a brick allows him to consolidate the firewall between his stolen cash and any meaningful accountability.
The interest alone accumulating on the ‘principle swindle’ is probably good enough to grease the palms of a sufficient number of mid-level politicos to close off significant avenues of investigation.
Time is of the essence – this should be a criminal pursuit.
This isn’t a case of petty pilferage or minor white collar fiddling.
This is a CRIME OF ASTRONOMICAL PROPORTIONS with effects and ramifications for PTC students and their families that will stretch on for decades.
They have fallen victim to probably the most morally bankrupt greed-ridden predatory scumbag ever to have leeched on the dreams and ambitions of young people starting their working lives.
I’m no lawyer, but I imagine that rather than sniping at each other from separate trenches it would be wiser to consolidate the forces of all aggrieved parties.
The first order of business would be to locate the legendry ‘Captain’ asap - either fiscally or physically.
Every hour this ratbag is allowed to hide under a brick allows him to consolidate the firewall between his stolen cash and any meaningful accountability.
The interest alone accumulating on the ‘principle swindle’ is probably good enough to grease the palms of a sufficient number of mid-level politicos to close off significant avenues of investigation.
Time is of the essence – this should be a criminal pursuit.
Last edited by Irelander; 23rd Jul 2012 at 17:22.
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Tinstaafl, yes you're right in what you say - I didn't have pursue this training path. But would you turn down a sponsored place to go it alone? Personally I believe these schemes are the best out there, at present. Not too many jobs about, and now with most LCC's are introducing their own MPL schemes openings for 250 hour guys may well be reducing.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Nobody I know (except one individual) paid completely up front so where are you getting this from?
Well said pilotbear
There are one too many 'I know better than you' members knocking around.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Nobody I know (except one individual) paid completely up front so where are you getting this from?
Well said pilotbear
There are one too many 'I know better than you' members knocking around.
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Pilotbear, your analogy doesn't really work. A house has value hence the bank's willingness to pay up front on your behalf. Half an ATPL course has no value.
Which bit are some of you guys not getting? If someone wants significant cash up front (either the whole lot or by installment) they have a cash flow problem. It doesn't take much for that pack of cards to collapse. The principle is not unique to PTC or the aviation industry, it applies across the board.
Which bit are some of you guys not getting? If someone wants significant cash up front (either the whole lot or by installment) they have a cash flow problem. It doesn't take much for that pack of cards to collapse. The principle is not unique to PTC or the aviation industry, it applies across the board.
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kids these days want it "right now..."
they want a ps3,they want a game boy, and later they want fly a jet, and they will do anything to reach their dream with parents' money, today, not tomorrow.
this is how these young pilots became.spoiled kids!
gosh, what a surprise, when things are not turning they way they want and flight schools run away with their money!.
life is
, suck it!
they want a ps3,they want a game boy, and later they want fly a jet, and they will do anything to reach their dream with parents' money, today, not tomorrow.
this is how these young pilots became.spoiled kids!
gosh, what a surprise, when things are not turning they way they want and flight schools run away with their money!.
life is
, suck it!
Last edited by a320renewal; 23rd Jul 2012 at 21:51.
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a better way to pay
It should be made a requirement for any FTO or ATO as they will now be called under EASA, to have an escrow payment system in place before they get approval.
Money is held by a third party until the event that requires to be paid for is complete. There should be a small amount advanced to the ATO to allow for prepaying skills tests and equipment etc.
Pilot training should also be about, now don't take me up wrong, but training pilots. Its not that difficult once you have an experienced training department, who have both experience in flight instruction and commercial transport. Its not a sales or IT company that does some flight training on the side.
Universities and colleges have been educating for years, if the system ain't broke...
Money is held by a third party until the event that requires to be paid for is complete. There should be a small amount advanced to the ATO to allow for prepaying skills tests and equipment etc.
Pilot training should also be about, now don't take me up wrong, but training pilots. Its not that difficult once you have an experienced training department, who have both experience in flight instruction and commercial transport. Its not a sales or IT company that does some flight training on the side.
Universities and colleges have been educating for years, if the system ain't broke...
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Another invalid post with no meaning or relevance a320renewal. Your description is far from reality. I've seen you polluting threads before with your limited knowledge and terrible grammer. A quick look a your post statistics made me laugh. Sometimes its funny to see 'old hands' completely shoot down unnecessary posts/users.
Surprised you're not banned yet.
Surprised you're not banned yet.
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For those who have kids and have either sent them to private education establishments or indeed university, these education facilities impose yearly fees which parents are required to pay in full at the beginning of the term year!
For those of you who say don't pay up front (and I totaly agree I don't think anyone should hand over 80K for a 15 month course at the beginning of that course), do you think the university or private school is going to allow your kid to start their education without the funds in place?
As I believe it has been mentioned above, most of those PTC students did not pay the whole lot in one instalment and I'm pretty sure it would have been in 4 instalments much like OAA, CTC and FTE do, are you now acussing these 4 well known and established pilot training institutions to be 'suspect' and in the same league as PTC?? I don't think so.
That is how companies work these days and yes if you don't like it take your business elsewhere, however as one poster has already stated, if he is offered a part sponsership with Flybe by attending PTC and PTC ask him for 4 instalments or even two instalments over the course of the 15 months, I think most of us would do so.
BA cadet recruits are currently training with OAA, CTC & FTE, I bet they paid whatever the training provider asked them to and if that was an all up payment they probably did so, would those of you who say don't pay in adavnce advise those indivduals to not do so?
The downfall of PTC is probably more to do with the company trying to grow too fast (you could use the word greed!) and stretching itself to the point of collapse. Just look at the number of companies set up and who knows what other avenues the company has expanded towards.
Purchasing a 737 sim and housing it in Cambridge (if they did in fact purcahse it) is not cheap and it's these sorts of things where some companies use cash meant for other avenues (pilot training) to fulfil other aquisitions (737 sim), now I'm not saying that is the case because I don't know but PTC have always tried to play with the 'big boys'; they never were in that group nor ever will!
For all those students affected, I'm sure you're already way ahead on this but your best course of action is for all of you to collectively pursue the company(s) or individual(s) through the legal process.
It's ironic really but PTC through examinership are looking to resurface with a new business plan to conduct only the IR training in Waterford! If my recollection of PTC serves me right, that is how they first started! mainly marketing those with FAA CPL/IR to train at Waterford for conversions to JAA. Even if this were a viable option for PTC now, is anyone really going to go and train with them in the future?
It is a sad state of affairs and one I hope that the students concerned are able to get some recourse from and lets not forget the staff at PTC who through no fault of their own, have overnight become unemployed in this current climate.
For those of you who say don't pay up front (and I totaly agree I don't think anyone should hand over 80K for a 15 month course at the beginning of that course), do you think the university or private school is going to allow your kid to start their education without the funds in place?
As I believe it has been mentioned above, most of those PTC students did not pay the whole lot in one instalment and I'm pretty sure it would have been in 4 instalments much like OAA, CTC and FTE do, are you now acussing these 4 well known and established pilot training institutions to be 'suspect' and in the same league as PTC?? I don't think so.
That is how companies work these days and yes if you don't like it take your business elsewhere, however as one poster has already stated, if he is offered a part sponsership with Flybe by attending PTC and PTC ask him for 4 instalments or even two instalments over the course of the 15 months, I think most of us would do so.
BA cadet recruits are currently training with OAA, CTC & FTE, I bet they paid whatever the training provider asked them to and if that was an all up payment they probably did so, would those of you who say don't pay in adavnce advise those indivduals to not do so?
The downfall of PTC is probably more to do with the company trying to grow too fast (you could use the word greed!) and stretching itself to the point of collapse. Just look at the number of companies set up and who knows what other avenues the company has expanded towards.
Purchasing a 737 sim and housing it in Cambridge (if they did in fact purcahse it) is not cheap and it's these sorts of things where some companies use cash meant for other avenues (pilot training) to fulfil other aquisitions (737 sim), now I'm not saying that is the case because I don't know but PTC have always tried to play with the 'big boys'; they never were in that group nor ever will!
For all those students affected, I'm sure you're already way ahead on this but your best course of action is for all of you to collectively pursue the company(s) or individual(s) through the legal process.
It's ironic really but PTC through examinership are looking to resurface with a new business plan to conduct only the IR training in Waterford! If my recollection of PTC serves me right, that is how they first started! mainly marketing those with FAA CPL/IR to train at Waterford for conversions to JAA. Even if this were a viable option for PTC now, is anyone really going to go and train with them in the future?
It is a sad state of affairs and one I hope that the students concerned are able to get some recourse from and lets not forget the staff at PTC who through no fault of their own, have overnight become unemployed in this current climate.
What those who act the way Mike Edgeworth et al appears to have done is reprehensible. But even without such behaviour, flying schools go tits up. Sometimes it's inept management, sometimes just a poor economy that can't support the business model, and sometimes it's through dishonesty. The point is you have no way of knowing the financial circumstances of a school. Even publicly owned companies' books aren't entirely clear.
That doesn't change the fact that handing over tens of thousands of pounds to any organisation, without any form of funds protection, for what is little more than a nice promise for future value received can't be defended as a particularly sensible way to arrange your flying training.
Pilotbear, you're wrong about your mortgage analogy. You gain the ownership of the property if you complete the contract terms eg the exchange money for the property. If you get the money using a typical loan arrangement then it's the mortgage company that's taking the risk that you're going to pay them back and they - sensibly - don't give you the money without insurance in the form of a mortgage on the property. As long as if you make the loan repayments until the loan is completely paid off then the house is yours.
Would you loan $50,000 or $100,000 to a stranger without security? Because that's pretty much what paying up front is doing.
If you accept a part sponsorship, it's because you think it will fast track you into a nice, shiny jet. If it involves paying large amounts up front then that's a risk you *choose* to take on your route to a jet job, even though there are alternative ways to eventually get there.
That doesn't change the fact that handing over tens of thousands of pounds to any organisation, without any form of funds protection, for what is little more than a nice promise for future value received can't be defended as a particularly sensible way to arrange your flying training.
Pilotbear, you're wrong about your mortgage analogy. You gain the ownership of the property if you complete the contract terms eg the exchange money for the property. If you get the money using a typical loan arrangement then it's the mortgage company that's taking the risk that you're going to pay them back and they - sensibly - don't give you the money without insurance in the form of a mortgage on the property. As long as if you make the loan repayments until the loan is completely paid off then the house is yours.
Would you loan $50,000 or $100,000 to a stranger without security? Because that's pretty much what paying up front is doing.
If you accept a part sponsorship, it's because you think it will fast track you into a nice, shiny jet. If it involves paying large amounts up front then that's a risk you *choose* to take on your route to a jet job, even though there are alternative ways to eventually get there.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 24th Jul 2012 at 12:48.
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The hairdresser and Capt fantastic
Very interesting reading your comments about PTC and wish you all well. I attended a presentation recently and it sounds like the same bunch are at it again. One was a guy who calls himself Capt Mark Robinson and the other with a strange haircut called Neil Danna Davies. It all sounded to good to be true and have since heard through the grapevine that they were all part of the PTC/ Cabair fiasco. Sounds to me like they are a bunch of wannabies who are trying to financially screw young wannabies.
Do the names ring any bells ??
Do the names ring any bells ??
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Grind those monkeys down!
Interesting post.Looking at pilotbears previous post where
names are mentioned with relation to this company I don't
see either of these two appearing.
There could in fact,I'm sure,be a whole lot of names from the
world of PTC that could be brought up for examination,including
many (ex)staff members that could also be possibly blamed in
some small,(or large) way for this companys demise,but again
I bet they won't be the same names appearing in the 'boards.ie' post.
Is this a case of going after the monkeys but not the organ-grinders?
names are mentioned with relation to this company I don't
see either of these two appearing.
There could in fact,I'm sure,be a whole lot of names from the
world of PTC that could be brought up for examination,including
many (ex)staff members that could also be possibly blamed in
some small,(or large) way for this companys demise,but again
I bet they won't be the same names appearing in the 'boards.ie' post.
Is this a case of going after the monkeys but not the organ-grinders?
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Investors attracted to Waterford pilot firm - Business - Longford Leader
It seems the 'Captain' is still free to pedal his snake oil
It seems the 'Captain' is still free to pedal his snake oil
Last edited by Irelander; 1st Aug 2012 at 21:59.
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Both individuals named in Flying fast post were ex PTC staff, though I believe they left (or were sacked not sure which!) prior to the company demise. Both also now work for Atlantic Flight training Coventry, not sure if they were briefly connected to Cabair though.
The Captain is an ex student of PTC who didn't finsh the course but then went onto to work at PTC.
The Head Of Training resigned around Christmas 2011, possibly as he saw the writing on the wall!
The Captain is an ex student of PTC who didn't finsh the course but then went onto to work at PTC.
The Head Of Training resigned around Christmas 2011, possibly as he saw the writing on the wall!
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Firstly, Irelander you have got it spot on...
Secondly, 'the hairdresser and captain fantastic' sounds like a movie!
Now in answer to the post earlier..
MARK ROBERTSON - failed pilot. He was the worst student i had in 10 years of instructing. The only person who I gave up on with the CPL course. Never passed an instrument rating. Excuse after excuse of non performance master . Came over to Florida once for PTC and spent the whole trip while all his colleagues were working pretending to be sick and going to Hooters.
Dana Davies - (Isn't that a girls name?) Never ever been a pilot of any sort whatsoever, nearest he got to aviation was the passenger compartment of an easy jet 737 to Malaga. I thought he was a hairdresser actually.
Sinead O'Marcaigh - Telecoms saleswoman. Knows nothing about aviation except how to lie to get money out of people. A true Edgeworth disciple except....she and Edgeworth are 'partners' even though he is still married and have been for many years as you all know....or didn't they tell you that?
Anything else you want to know?
If you encounter any of these people trying to sell you something run away screaming!
Regarding paying up front, it happened like this;
Method 1,
The students paid money into a holding account and started training. Then at critical moments in the training when the student couldn't say no..(this was all planned in advance) they would get a phone call or email from Sinead or Siobhan or one of the other sales team depending how short of money the Ponzi scheme was saying training was suspended and threatening and YES I mean threatening, to terminate the 'student' from the program ( in Florida the threat that the student would be sent home with no refund) unless they paid in more money to top up the account.
Method 2,
PTC would deliberately over-bill the students and ONLY pay the money back if the student noticed.
Many tried to alert students on here to method 2 while it was happening but the moderator who was clearly allied with edgeworth ( no, not <..>) cut the posts and sent me rude and threatening emails.
Hope he is sleeping soundly now these kids have had their money stolen!
I know for an absolute fact that there are many students that this happened to, I wonder if any of them has the
to post to confirm or are you all going to be first officers all your lives...any true Captains out there?
A320 renewal - you are a
Secondly, 'the hairdresser and captain fantastic' sounds like a movie!
Now in answer to the post earlier..
MARK ROBERTSON - failed pilot. He was the worst student i had in 10 years of instructing. The only person who I gave up on with the CPL course. Never passed an instrument rating. Excuse after excuse of non performance master . Came over to Florida once for PTC and spent the whole trip while all his colleagues were working pretending to be sick and going to Hooters.
Dana Davies - (Isn't that a girls name?) Never ever been a pilot of any sort whatsoever, nearest he got to aviation was the passenger compartment of an easy jet 737 to Malaga. I thought he was a hairdresser actually.
Sinead O'Marcaigh - Telecoms saleswoman. Knows nothing about aviation except how to lie to get money out of people. A true Edgeworth disciple except....she and Edgeworth are 'partners' even though he is still married and have been for many years as you all know....or didn't they tell you that?
Anything else you want to know?
If you encounter any of these people trying to sell you something run away screaming!
Regarding paying up front, it happened like this;
Method 1,
The students paid money into a holding account and started training. Then at critical moments in the training when the student couldn't say no..(this was all planned in advance) they would get a phone call or email from Sinead or Siobhan or one of the other sales team depending how short of money the Ponzi scheme was saying training was suspended and threatening and YES I mean threatening, to terminate the 'student' from the program ( in Florida the threat that the student would be sent home with no refund) unless they paid in more money to top up the account.
Method 2,
PTC would deliberately over-bill the students and ONLY pay the money back if the student noticed.
Many tried to alert students on here to method 2 while it was happening but the moderator who was clearly allied with edgeworth ( no, not <..>) cut the posts and sent me rude and threatening emails.
Hope he is sleeping soundly now these kids have had their money stolen!
I know for an absolute fact that there are many students that this happened to, I wonder if any of them has the
to post to confirm or are you all going to be first officers all your lives...any true Captains out there?A320 renewal - you are a
Last edited by pilotbear; 3rd Aug 2012 at 00:06.