Pilot Training College - Florida Ops closure
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: UK
Mark Robertson
Mark started the Zero to Hero course with PTC which entails sitting the ATPL theory course and exams 1st, at the time he did the course there was only modular self study offered by PTC so he did go on to pass those exams, then went out and flew in Florida with PTC before returning to start CPL training at Waterford, which is where he encountered his problems with not being able to manage a single pilot operation to the demanding levels of he CPL.
So, yes he achieved passes in the 14 ATPL theory exams and eventually got a SE CPL, but that is it.
NO ME, NO IR, NO MCC, NO JOC and certainly no real jet/turboprop time with any airline.
So, yes he achieved passes in the 14 ATPL theory exams and eventually got a SE CPL, but that is it.
NO ME, NO IR, NO MCC, NO JOC and certainly no real jet/turboprop time with any airline.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
Sex Addicts, Fake Pilots, Robbery & Fraud,
If I made a film about this, Id make a fortune!
If I made a film about this, Id make a fortune!
Don't get the script ready yet Warrior 2.
I believe a film like that has been made already. "Catch me if you can."
Steven Spielberg already made the fortune on that story.
Could it be possible this is where Edgeworth got his inspiration! :L
It's a real shame tho what happened. I foolsly went for an assessment with PTC, had a deposit paid but backed out around april after months of trying to get my deposit back which luckily I did. Someone was looking down on me.
Would believe the things I hear about Dana and Mark felt something wasnt right with those two on day of assessment.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: UK
Clearsky Pilot Training Fraud
From Thursday, 18 October 2012 Dáil Éireann Debate
Dail Eireann
Clearsky Pilot Training
Pilot Training College
7. Deputy John Browne asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the reason for his non-intervention in the events involving the students at the Pilot Training College in Waterford; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45168/12]
77. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the steps he is taking to help the people who were let down by the pilot training college having paid large tuition fees. [45131/12]
Deputy Leo Varadkar: I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 77 together.
These questions relate to the situation at the Pilot Training College, PTC. This issue arose from the failure of PTC, a privately-owned and operated flight training school, to meet its contractual obligations to its students for the completion of their training.
The Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, has responsibility for approving and overseeing flight training organisations. Its primary functions in this regard are oversight of the safety, quality and standard of the training being delivered and the conduct of examinations and flight tests. It considers issues such as whether the company has sufficient resources to safely provide the training required to the internationally determined standards. It had no involvement in, or responsibility for, the contractual arrangements between PTC and its students. The IAA's role is based on European rules. PTC is not, unfortunately, an isolated example. There have been similar failures in other countries in the recent past in respect of which the students involved also suffered losses. Unfortunately, many businesses have, in the current economic climate, failed, leaving their suppliers and customers out of pocket, including businesses in respect of which a State body has a regulatory role.
In July, the High Court appointed an examiner to PTC Ireland. The IAA worked with the examiner to assess the options available but unfortunately on 28 September the court ordered the company's liquidation after a final potential investor withdrew. While I sympathise with the students and their families, many of whom have suffered considerable financial losses through this company's collapse , neither the Government nor the IAA, have any liability in this regard. The Irish taxpayer cannot be liable for a company’s debts simply because it had approval of some form from a State agency.
Deputy Timmy Dooley: I thank the Minister for his reply, although the information provided does not give any comfort to the parents and students who find themselves with an enormous financial burden.
(Speaker Continuing)
[Deputy Timmy Dooley: ] I refer to young people who accepted a place with the PTC in the belief that it had the backing of the State, not just in terms of the regulatory role of the Irish Aviation Authority. The Minister said that, as part of the authority's remit, it would have to determine whether the PTC had sufficient resources to provide training. One wonders whether it was possible at the outset to establish whether there were sufficient resources to ensure the training of potential pilots.
In recent weeks, it has been reported in public that another training company has been established in Waterford. It has a very similar name, Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited. From company records, it appears to have a set of directors similar to that of its predecessor. This is of particular concern to the parents. Will the company seek to be recognised by the Irish Aviation Authority? If so, will the authority be compelled to provide it with the necessary credentials provided that it is technically able to provide training to prospective pilots? Will there be capacity in this instance to deal with the issue of providing sufficient resources?
From a couple of perspectives, we need more clarity. We need to know whether the law is strong enough to protect against the phoenix-like emergence of a new company. Without more evidence, I do not want to repeat some of the allegations that have been made about the stripping of assets and resources of one company in order to provide for the establishment of another. This would be very serious if it were true. Does the Irish Aviation Authority have appropriate investigative powers and other appropriate powers to prevent what I described from happening?
Deputy Leo Varadkar: There are a few relevant points. PTC's accounts were signed off, without qualification, on 29 August 2011 by professional auditors. The accountants were satisfied that "the group, including PTC, will continue as a going concern" and they stated the directors are satisfied that sufficient financial resources are available to the group from its budgeted profits, banks and shareholders. The Irish Aviation Authority reviewed the company's financial projections for 2011-13 and its projected profits for each year to the end of 2013. As recently as early June 2012, the authority met PTC's CEO, who assured it that the company had sufficient funding in place until at least the end of 2012. It is worth pointing out in this regard that, had the authority come to a decision that the college did not have sufficient resources – there is no evidence to suggest it – the only action open to it would have been to de-recognise the college and require it to cease trading. Therefore, those affected would be in exactly the same position as they are now. The problem would simply have arisen a few weeks earlier.
A Government regulation is not the same as a bond or guarantee. If an airline or travel agent fails, customers are protected because of the bond. There is no bonding system in these circumstances. Perhaps we need to consider this. We cannot make provision retrospectively.
As with me, I am sure the Deputy has constituents who have been burned by this problem. We all have considerable sympathy for those affected. In some cases, they are losing a lot of money because of what has happened. One should bear in mind that they are not the only creditors. If the Government were to decide suddenly to compensate the creditors, including the very large number of foreign students, airlines and the business in Florida, it would have to compensate them all on the same basis. This would cost the taxpayer millions of euro in this case alone and set a very significant precedent for future cases. Ultimately, I have no money. The only money I have is money that belongs to the taxpayer. It would be irresponsible of me to offer compensation in this case or any similar case.
Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited has been established and registered at the same address as PTC. Following the reports, the Irish Aviation Authority inspected the premises of the company on 4 October last. The new company was providing refresher training for an international non-EU client. The training does not meet the standard required for an Irish or EU pilot licence. Should the new entity wish to provide training meeting EU standards, it, like any other company, will have to apply to the Irish Aviation Authority for approval. To date, the authority has not received any such application.
Deputy Dessie Ellis: The Irish Aviation Authority, a State organisation, granted the college a licence to operate. The authority was charged with ensuring the company had sufficient resources to provide training safely. The college never had the resources required for students to complete their courses. We now face a debacle in that a large number of people are left stranded abroad with huge debts. They are unable to complete their training and education. This comprises a considerable issue for them. We met many of them outside Leinster House and they told us stories about borrowing money and of their being up to their eyes in hock. It is just unacceptable.
To what extent did the Irish Aviation Authority scrutinise PTC when it decided to grant it a licence? There is an onus on the State to address this because the authority is a State institution that needs to be made accountable for what happened.
Deputy Leo Varadkar: It is important to state nobody has been stranded abroad.
Deputy Dessie Ellis: They were.
Deputy Leo Varadkar: They were but they subsequently came home themselves or were repatriated at the expense of the Irish Aviation Authority on a no-prejudice basis, or on humanitarian grounds. I do not have the exact figures in front of me but I am informed that most of the trainees have resumed their training. Arrangements have been put in place in other colleges to allow the trainees to pay in instalments so they will not have to borrow large sums of money upfront. In addition, the Irish Aviation Authority made sure it got its hands on the trainees' records so training done to date will be recognised. There was a case previously in which this did not happen. Assistance was provided in so far as this was possible.
The PTC was audited by independent accountants and no issue arose in respect of the audit. Any inspections or reviews of the financial protections carried out by the Irish Aviation Authority showed the college had sufficient resources. Even if the authority had determined that the college did not have sufficient resources, all it could have done would have been to remove its licence. With the exception of a small number of people who paid fees in the weeks just before the college closed, everyone is in the exact same position. This would have been the case even if the Irish Aviation Authority had determined that there were insufficient resources.
As I stated, a licence is not a bond or guarantee. Perhaps there should be a bond, and we will examine this. A bond will come at a cost, and that cost will have to fall on the trainees.
Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: The Ceann Comhairle was kind enough to allow me to raise a Topical Issue on this subject but, thanks to a mess-up in my office, I missed the debate. I apologise and appreciate the opportunity to raise the matter again.
The Minister referred to professional audits and qualified accountants. However, if he reads excerpts from the report, he will note it states the negative capital and reserves of the company were almost €2.2 million underwater as of 31 December 2010. It also states: "These conditions indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt about the company's ability to continue as a going concern." Furthermore, it states: "The financial statements do not include any adjustments that would result if the Company was unable to continue as a going concern." The latter is repeated twice. These three statements raise serious concerns that should have stood out significantly.
The Irish Aviation Authority, a State agency with regulatory responsibility, gave the college a clean bill of health. Enterprise Ireland, a semi-State body, granted €400,000 to the college on top of an earlier grant of €8,000..
(Speaker Continuing)
[Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: ] It could be any Irish family but we are focused here on our constituents who spent their life savings so their children could meet their ambitions.
The full imprimatur of both the Irish Aviation Authority and Enterprise Ireland had been given to this company even though it is clear from its accounts that it was in serious difficulty. Families now hear about companies like Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited and the Shemburn Group, which allow the same directors to start again and possibly get a licence. Where is the justice in this? I know the Minister has met the families and knows the issue very well but I appeal to him to reconsider. The Irish Aviation Authority will be appearing before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications next Wednesday morning. I ask the Minister to look at the transcript of that meeting afterwards. I appeal to him to reconsider because this is very unfair to dozens of Irish families who face serious hardship. I admire the Minister's approach to many of these matters so I ask him to reconsider with more information.
An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Dooley may ask a quick supplementary question.
Deputy Timmy Dooley: Deputy Mac Lochlainn has covered the two issues I had in mind, which related to Enterprise Ireland and the audit committee. Has the Minister considered referring any report that either he or the Irish Aviation Authority might have produced to the Director of Corporate Enforcement? It seems that if there is a phoenix company-type situation arising in respect of a new company, there is certainly a requirement to refer the matter to Director of Corporate Enforcement.
Deputy Leo Varadkar: It is possible to read sections of accounts but, ultimately, the finding of the auditors was that it was a going concern and would continue as such. If it is the view that the Irish Aviation Authority somehow failed in its duties, it is open to the people concerned to take legal action against the authority. It is then, ultimately, for the courts to decide if that is the case. Based on its own advice, the Irish Aviation Authority, which is the statutory body responsible for this matter and not my Department, is confident that it was not negligent in any way.
The issue of phoenix companies causes huge anger and frustration but there is a reason why we have limited companies. If an honest businessperson has two businesses and one of them fails, it would not be right to allow the business that failed to bring down the good business. This is why we have limited liability - so that the failure of one business does not bring down other businesses.
I do not know if there are any issues here for the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement but if there are, I would expect the Irish Aviation Authority to make a referral to the relevant authorities. I am not aware of any referral.
Mike Edgeworth Fraud
Dail Eireann
Clearsky Pilot Training
Pilot Training College
7. Deputy John Browne asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the reason for his non-intervention in the events involving the students at the Pilot Training College in Waterford; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45168/12]
77. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the steps he is taking to help the people who were let down by the pilot training college having paid large tuition fees. [45131/12]
Deputy Leo Varadkar: I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 77 together.
These questions relate to the situation at the Pilot Training College, PTC. This issue arose from the failure of PTC, a privately-owned and operated flight training school, to meet its contractual obligations to its students for the completion of their training.
The Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, has responsibility for approving and overseeing flight training organisations. Its primary functions in this regard are oversight of the safety, quality and standard of the training being delivered and the conduct of examinations and flight tests. It considers issues such as whether the company has sufficient resources to safely provide the training required to the internationally determined standards. It had no involvement in, or responsibility for, the contractual arrangements between PTC and its students. The IAA's role is based on European rules. PTC is not, unfortunately, an isolated example. There have been similar failures in other countries in the recent past in respect of which the students involved also suffered losses. Unfortunately, many businesses have, in the current economic climate, failed, leaving their suppliers and customers out of pocket, including businesses in respect of which a State body has a regulatory role.
In July, the High Court appointed an examiner to PTC Ireland. The IAA worked with the examiner to assess the options available but unfortunately on 28 September the court ordered the company's liquidation after a final potential investor withdrew. While I sympathise with the students and their families, many of whom have suffered considerable financial losses through this company's collapse , neither the Government nor the IAA, have any liability in this regard. The Irish taxpayer cannot be liable for a company’s debts simply because it had approval of some form from a State agency.
Deputy Timmy Dooley: I thank the Minister for his reply, although the information provided does not give any comfort to the parents and students who find themselves with an enormous financial burden.
(Speaker Continuing)
[Deputy Timmy Dooley: ] I refer to young people who accepted a place with the PTC in the belief that it had the backing of the State, not just in terms of the regulatory role of the Irish Aviation Authority. The Minister said that, as part of the authority's remit, it would have to determine whether the PTC had sufficient resources to provide training. One wonders whether it was possible at the outset to establish whether there were sufficient resources to ensure the training of potential pilots.
In recent weeks, it has been reported in public that another training company has been established in Waterford. It has a very similar name, Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited. From company records, it appears to have a set of directors similar to that of its predecessor. This is of particular concern to the parents. Will the company seek to be recognised by the Irish Aviation Authority? If so, will the authority be compelled to provide it with the necessary credentials provided that it is technically able to provide training to prospective pilots? Will there be capacity in this instance to deal with the issue of providing sufficient resources?
From a couple of perspectives, we need more clarity. We need to know whether the law is strong enough to protect against the phoenix-like emergence of a new company. Without more evidence, I do not want to repeat some of the allegations that have been made about the stripping of assets and resources of one company in order to provide for the establishment of another. This would be very serious if it were true. Does the Irish Aviation Authority have appropriate investigative powers and other appropriate powers to prevent what I described from happening?
Deputy Leo Varadkar: There are a few relevant points. PTC's accounts were signed off, without qualification, on 29 August 2011 by professional auditors. The accountants were satisfied that "the group, including PTC, will continue as a going concern" and they stated the directors are satisfied that sufficient financial resources are available to the group from its budgeted profits, banks and shareholders. The Irish Aviation Authority reviewed the company's financial projections for 2011-13 and its projected profits for each year to the end of 2013. As recently as early June 2012, the authority met PTC's CEO, who assured it that the company had sufficient funding in place until at least the end of 2012. It is worth pointing out in this regard that, had the authority come to a decision that the college did not have sufficient resources – there is no evidence to suggest it – the only action open to it would have been to de-recognise the college and require it to cease trading. Therefore, those affected would be in exactly the same position as they are now. The problem would simply have arisen a few weeks earlier.
A Government regulation is not the same as a bond or guarantee. If an airline or travel agent fails, customers are protected because of the bond. There is no bonding system in these circumstances. Perhaps we need to consider this. We cannot make provision retrospectively.
As with me, I am sure the Deputy has constituents who have been burned by this problem. We all have considerable sympathy for those affected. In some cases, they are losing a lot of money because of what has happened. One should bear in mind that they are not the only creditors. If the Government were to decide suddenly to compensate the creditors, including the very large number of foreign students, airlines and the business in Florida, it would have to compensate them all on the same basis. This would cost the taxpayer millions of euro in this case alone and set a very significant precedent for future cases. Ultimately, I have no money. The only money I have is money that belongs to the taxpayer. It would be irresponsible of me to offer compensation in this case or any similar case.
Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited has been established and registered at the same address as PTC. Following the reports, the Irish Aviation Authority inspected the premises of the company on 4 October last. The new company was providing refresher training for an international non-EU client. The training does not meet the standard required for an Irish or EU pilot licence. Should the new entity wish to provide training meeting EU standards, it, like any other company, will have to apply to the Irish Aviation Authority for approval. To date, the authority has not received any such application.
Deputy Dessie Ellis: The Irish Aviation Authority, a State organisation, granted the college a licence to operate. The authority was charged with ensuring the company had sufficient resources to provide training safely. The college never had the resources required for students to complete their courses. We now face a debacle in that a large number of people are left stranded abroad with huge debts. They are unable to complete their training and education. This comprises a considerable issue for them. We met many of them outside Leinster House and they told us stories about borrowing money and of their being up to their eyes in hock. It is just unacceptable.
To what extent did the Irish Aviation Authority scrutinise PTC when it decided to grant it a licence? There is an onus on the State to address this because the authority is a State institution that needs to be made accountable for what happened.
Deputy Leo Varadkar: It is important to state nobody has been stranded abroad.
Deputy Dessie Ellis: They were.
Deputy Leo Varadkar: They were but they subsequently came home themselves or were repatriated at the expense of the Irish Aviation Authority on a no-prejudice basis, or on humanitarian grounds. I do not have the exact figures in front of me but I am informed that most of the trainees have resumed their training. Arrangements have been put in place in other colleges to allow the trainees to pay in instalments so they will not have to borrow large sums of money upfront. In addition, the Irish Aviation Authority made sure it got its hands on the trainees' records so training done to date will be recognised. There was a case previously in which this did not happen. Assistance was provided in so far as this was possible.
The PTC was audited by independent accountants and no issue arose in respect of the audit. Any inspections or reviews of the financial protections carried out by the Irish Aviation Authority showed the college had sufficient resources. Even if the authority had determined that the college did not have sufficient resources, all it could have done would have been to remove its licence. With the exception of a small number of people who paid fees in the weeks just before the college closed, everyone is in the exact same position. This would have been the case even if the Irish Aviation Authority had determined that there were insufficient resources.
As I stated, a licence is not a bond or guarantee. Perhaps there should be a bond, and we will examine this. A bond will come at a cost, and that cost will have to fall on the trainees.
Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: The Ceann Comhairle was kind enough to allow me to raise a Topical Issue on this subject but, thanks to a mess-up in my office, I missed the debate. I apologise and appreciate the opportunity to raise the matter again.
The Minister referred to professional audits and qualified accountants. However, if he reads excerpts from the report, he will note it states the negative capital and reserves of the company were almost €2.2 million underwater as of 31 December 2010. It also states: "These conditions indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt about the company's ability to continue as a going concern." Furthermore, it states: "The financial statements do not include any adjustments that would result if the Company was unable to continue as a going concern." The latter is repeated twice. These three statements raise serious concerns that should have stood out significantly.
The Irish Aviation Authority, a State agency with regulatory responsibility, gave the college a clean bill of health. Enterprise Ireland, a semi-State body, granted €400,000 to the college on top of an earlier grant of €8,000..
(Speaker Continuing)
[Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: ] It could be any Irish family but we are focused here on our constituents who spent their life savings so their children could meet their ambitions.
The full imprimatur of both the Irish Aviation Authority and Enterprise Ireland had been given to this company even though it is clear from its accounts that it was in serious difficulty. Families now hear about companies like Clearsky Pilot Training College Limited and the Shemburn Group, which allow the same directors to start again and possibly get a licence. Where is the justice in this? I know the Minister has met the families and knows the issue very well but I appeal to him to reconsider. The Irish Aviation Authority will be appearing before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications next Wednesday morning. I ask the Minister to look at the transcript of that meeting afterwards. I appeal to him to reconsider because this is very unfair to dozens of Irish families who face serious hardship. I admire the Minister's approach to many of these matters so I ask him to reconsider with more information.
An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Dooley may ask a quick supplementary question.
Deputy Timmy Dooley: Deputy Mac Lochlainn has covered the two issues I had in mind, which related to Enterprise Ireland and the audit committee. Has the Minister considered referring any report that either he or the Irish Aviation Authority might have produced to the Director of Corporate Enforcement? It seems that if there is a phoenix company-type situation arising in respect of a new company, there is certainly a requirement to refer the matter to Director of Corporate Enforcement.
Deputy Leo Varadkar: It is possible to read sections of accounts but, ultimately, the finding of the auditors was that it was a going concern and would continue as such. If it is the view that the Irish Aviation Authority somehow failed in its duties, it is open to the people concerned to take legal action against the authority. It is then, ultimately, for the courts to decide if that is the case. Based on its own advice, the Irish Aviation Authority, which is the statutory body responsible for this matter and not my Department, is confident that it was not negligent in any way.
The issue of phoenix companies causes huge anger and frustration but there is a reason why we have limited companies. If an honest businessperson has two businesses and one of them fails, it would not be right to allow the business that failed to bring down the good business. This is why we have limited liability - so that the failure of one business does not bring down other businesses.
I do not know if there are any issues here for the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement but if there are, I would expect the Irish Aviation Authority to make a referral to the relevant authorities. I am not aware of any referral.
Mike Edgeworth Fraud
Last edited by Matrix12; 29th October 2012 at 06:12.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: UK
Clearsky Pilot Training CAA
One would ask the question why he was not been shut down by the IAA for the training being conducted there recently?? Are the IAA afraid of him? Is it not within the jurisdiction of the body that regulates aviation in Ireland? So many unanswered questions here... Whats going on?
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: er...Ireland
The issue of phoenix companies causes huge anger and frustration but there is a reason why we have limited companies. If an honest businessperson has two businesses and one of them fails, it would not be right to allow the business that failed to bring down the good business. This is why we have limited liability - so that the failure of one business does not bring down other businesses.
Limited liability is not a ticket to commit scumbag criminality with impunity.
Edgeworth's thievery has dumped a lot of folks in a sea of grief and the money he stole is still unaccounted for.
Not so many years ago an Irish court threw a woman into the slammer for stealing food to keep herself alive for the day - but this grabbing slimeball not only escapes prosecution but is awarded with tacit government approval to spend the money he stole on a shiny new criminal venture !!!
Ireland sure provides the best justice that money can buy
WTF IS GOING ON?
Last edited by Irelander; 23rd October 2012 at 08:43.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
From: all over the place
More rumours and allegations and Public record
So Edgeworthless has applied to the UK CAA for approvals to train at Waterford. I believe the IAA has to ok this also so lets see what occurs. Edgeworthless's new Partner AW is an IAA guy so lets see if it all continues.
It is rumoured that he is being financed by his partner in crime and home the ex..Global Sales Training Manageress. (LOL) So now we know who has the Students money.
Waterford Airport say they wont do business with them but I believe there are shared board members with Shemburn so lets see on that one as the big news which is also public record if you look is Edgeworth is doing assessments for training for SAA using to same g/f rooms as PTC at Waterford Airport!
Obviously SAA haven't been educated on all the scandal yet
I certainly wouldn't condone anyone sending a link or documentation from Florida to SAA management or to the UK CAA standards department at Gatwick, that would be an Edgeworthless tactic
It appears some assets seem to be floating around in the name of Edgeworth also transferred just prior to the fall. EI-SKD and the FNPTT2 sim plus some machinery for the farm? supposed to have been for the ramp.
So Edgeworthless has applied to the UK CAA for approvals to train at Waterford. I believe the IAA has to ok this also so lets see what occurs. Edgeworthless's new Partner AW is an IAA guy so lets see if it all continues.
It is rumoured that he is being financed by his partner in crime and home the ex..Global Sales Training Manageress. (LOL) So now we know who has the Students money.
Waterford Airport say they wont do business with them but I believe there are shared board members with Shemburn so lets see on that one as the big news which is also public record if you look is Edgeworth is doing assessments for training for SAA using to same g/f rooms as PTC at Waterford Airport!
Obviously SAA haven't been educated on all the scandal yet
I certainly wouldn't condone anyone sending a link or documentation from Florida to SAA management or to the UK CAA standards department at Gatwick, that would be an Edgeworthless tactic
It appears some assets seem to be floating around in the name of Edgeworth also transferred just prior to the fall. EI-SKD and the FNPTT2 sim plus some machinery for the farm? supposed to have been for the ramp.
Last edited by pilotbear; 24th October 2012 at 03:39.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: UK
PB... This is the type of information that the public need to be hearing about the carry on that has gone on. In fact im pretty sure this is material for the fraud squad and financial regulator.
The truth always comes out in the end.....
Last edited by Matrix12; 24th October 2012 at 19:46.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: York
The Truth
Let's put this nonsense to rest. I do not need to hide behind an alias because I have nothing to hide and will only tell the truth. I was the CFI at PTC about nine years ago for a period of seven months. Mike Jones was one of my staff instructors. Since that time I have had very little involvement with PTC. I have assisted with some independent interviewing and assessments of candidates for various schools, one of which was PTC. I have revalidated ratings for various pilots, some of whom have worked for PTC, including Mike Edgeworth and Mike Jones. That is what independent examiners do. I am not an IAA examiner and have not been for many years.
I have no axe to grind in this matter and no wish to be involved in the squabbles. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who has lost money with PTC, Cabair or any of the many other providers who have gone bust over the years. But I have no knowledge of any scams at any of these establishments.
I have recently joined AFT as CFI. To the best of my knowledge this school has no links with any other school. In my view as a very experienced instructor and examiner I believe that AFT offers a good service to its trainees. The company has some well qualified instructors and a good pass rate. What else does one need? There are no scams, cons or anything untoward to the best of my knowledge. If I knew of anything I would not be here because I value my reputation.
Now, is there anything else any of you would like to know? If you want to make direct contact with me please email or telephone me. You have my details already.
I have no axe to grind in this matter and no wish to be involved in the squabbles. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who has lost money with PTC, Cabair or any of the many other providers who have gone bust over the years. But I have no knowledge of any scams at any of these establishments.
I have recently joined AFT as CFI. To the best of my knowledge this school has no links with any other school. In my view as a very experienced instructor and examiner I believe that AFT offers a good service to its trainees. The company has some well qualified instructors and a good pass rate. What else does one need? There are no scams, cons or anything untoward to the best of my knowledge. If I knew of anything I would not be here because I value my reputation.
Now, is there anything else any of you would like to know? If you want to make direct contact with me please email or telephone me. You have my details already.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
But I have no knowledge of any scams at any of these establishments.
And your sales team is using the boeing report to punt out that there is going to be a pilot shortage. Which we all know is a load of rubbish.
That same sales team was the one that had a advertising standards ruling against them while working at PTC. Unfortunately for you the PTC thing is like a cows bum in spring with brown stuff sticking to it never mind what ever direction the cow turns.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: cork
I am aware that the IAA know that ME has tried to resurrect approvals that were for PTC Cambridge with the CAA. The IAA have been in contact with the CAA and are very much aware of the situation.
As for Waterford airport I have it on good authority , no pun intended, that they do not want to linked with any more of ME's antics. They are happy to accept rent for hangarage and aircraft parking but the clock is even ticking on this.
The IAA tribunal was today anyone got info yet?
As for Waterford airport I have it on good authority , no pun intended, that they do not want to linked with any more of ME's antics. They are happy to accept rent for hangarage and aircraft parking but the clock is even ticking on this.
The IAA tribunal was today anyone got info yet?
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: UK
Oireachtas to investigate pilot school
Irish Times Today
Breaking News from the Oireachtas
The collapse of the Waterford based Pilot Training College which went into liquidation after trainees and their families paid €5.5million in fees, is to be investigated by a committee of the Dáil and Seanad.
The decision to investigate was taken today after the Oireachtas Transport Committee heard from chief executive of the Irish Aviation Authority Eamonn Brennan that the directors of the college had “run for the hills”.
The authority's director of safety regulation Kevin Humphreys said the directors had been effectively operating “a ponzi scheme”.
The committee also heard criticism of the college's accountants and auditors and the investigation is to consider whether to report these firms to their regulatory bodies.
A number of trainee pilots – part of a group of up to 350 pilots - who were left stranded in Florida when the college collapsed, were in the committee’s public gallery today to hear acting chairman Patrick O’Donovan say the investigation would be “full and forensic”.
A number of committee members complained that fees had continued to be taken from trainees in the months before the Florida Institute of Technology ended its deal with the Waterford based college over non payment of bills.
The Committee also heard calls for the actions of the college directors to be referred to the director of corporate enforcement. Joe McHugh TD said the college’s accountants and auditors appeared to have given the school a clean bill of health when there were serious difficulties.
In a further move the committee said its investigation would cover whether the Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar should make a once-off offer of alternative training or compensation to the students involved.
Mr Brennan said the authority had done everything it could do, as it was a safety regulator and not the financial regulator. He said he would welcome an investigation by the director of corporate enforcement, and remarked that the directors of the Pilot Training College had not answered questions from the authority or the student’s families about the financial crisis at the business.
He said he understood a new company, Clearsky, had been incorporated in recent months by the principals of the Pilot Training College but it had not sought any approvals for the aviation authority.
Mr Humphreys said the lessons from a similar collapse in Co Cork in the 1980s had not been learned.
Speaking ahead of today's hearing, Brian and Martina Kealy of the Pilot Training College Action Group said many individuals and families had paid sums of about €80,000 each in the nine months before the college went into liquidation.
They have been told the company has no funds to repay the fees they paid for a course taught in the US.
Ms Kealy said the group maintained there were difficulties with the oversight of the Pilot Training College accounts by the IAA. She said they also took issue with the assertion by Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar to the effect that accountants had been “satisfied” the college would continue as a going concern.
Ms Kealy said Mr Varadkar could "not evade these truths", adding that “justice must be done”.
Breaking News from the Oireachtas
The collapse of the Waterford based Pilot Training College which went into liquidation after trainees and their families paid €5.5million in fees, is to be investigated by a committee of the Dáil and Seanad.
The decision to investigate was taken today after the Oireachtas Transport Committee heard from chief executive of the Irish Aviation Authority Eamonn Brennan that the directors of the college had “run for the hills”.
The authority's director of safety regulation Kevin Humphreys said the directors had been effectively operating “a ponzi scheme”.
The committee also heard criticism of the college's accountants and auditors and the investigation is to consider whether to report these firms to their regulatory bodies.
A number of trainee pilots – part of a group of up to 350 pilots - who were left stranded in Florida when the college collapsed, were in the committee’s public gallery today to hear acting chairman Patrick O’Donovan say the investigation would be “full and forensic”.
A number of committee members complained that fees had continued to be taken from trainees in the months before the Florida Institute of Technology ended its deal with the Waterford based college over non payment of bills.
The Committee also heard calls for the actions of the college directors to be referred to the director of corporate enforcement. Joe McHugh TD said the college’s accountants and auditors appeared to have given the school a clean bill of health when there were serious difficulties.
In a further move the committee said its investigation would cover whether the Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar should make a once-off offer of alternative training or compensation to the students involved.
Mr Brennan said the authority had done everything it could do, as it was a safety regulator and not the financial regulator. He said he would welcome an investigation by the director of corporate enforcement, and remarked that the directors of the Pilot Training College had not answered questions from the authority or the student’s families about the financial crisis at the business.
He said he understood a new company, Clearsky, had been incorporated in recent months by the principals of the Pilot Training College but it had not sought any approvals for the aviation authority.
Mr Humphreys said the lessons from a similar collapse in Co Cork in the 1980s had not been learned.
Speaking ahead of today's hearing, Brian and Martina Kealy of the Pilot Training College Action Group said many individuals and families had paid sums of about €80,000 each in the nine months before the college went into liquidation.
They have been told the company has no funds to repay the fees they paid for a course taught in the US.
Ms Kealy said the group maintained there were difficulties with the oversight of the Pilot Training College accounts by the IAA. She said they also took issue with the assertion by Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar to the effect that accountants had been “satisfied” the college would continue as a going concern.
Ms Kealy said Mr Varadkar could "not evade these truths", adding that “justice must be done”.
Last edited by Matrix12; 29th October 2012 at 06:11.
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From: UK
IAA: Pilot college financing like a Ponzi scheme
IAA: Pilot college financing like a Ponzi scheme
Irish Examiner
By Claire O’Sullivan
Thursday, October 25, 2012
The Irish Aviation Authority has likened the financing of the ill-fated Pilot Training College in Waterford to a Ponzi scheme, and said the director of corporate enforcement should investigate the company’s collapse.
The authority’s director of safety regulation, Kevin Humphreys, yesterday told the Oireachtas transport committee the "absence of cadet sponsorship by airlines" has meant private pilot training is "open to this kind of abuse, that is operating as a Ponzi scheme", as huge injections of finance were regularly required to ensure quality training.
He lamented the lack of airline-sponsored cadetships, such as those previously offered by Aer Lingus and the air corps, describing it as "a lacuna".
IAA chief executive Eamonn Brennan was criticised by TDs and senators, who accused the body of failing to better regulate the school, but the IAA refused to take the blame, saying it is only responsible for safety regulation and that questions on the financing of the company should "go to the director of corporate enforcement".
Senator Denis O’Donovan took aim at Transport Minister Leo Varadkar for his failure "to take control" in the past four months and "find out where the buck lies".
It was agreed that a committee of the Dáil and Seanad will undertake a "full and forensic" investigation of the collapse of the college, which left up to 190 private and partially sponsored students out of pocket by up to €5.5m.
Mr Brennan said the directors of the company should be brought before the committee. "The one people not being called to account are the directors of this company," he said. "The minute this happened, they headed for the hills. We could not contact them. They have not been held to account and we are going around in circles here with the department and IAA."
Fine Gael TD Joe O’Reilly was sharply critical of the college going into liquidation on Oct 2, and then a day later, its chief executive and directors setting up another aviation company, Clearsky.
"It was the reincarnation of a sick, old animal," he said.
Mr Brennan said the IAA will "keep Clearsky under observation".
The IAA and the department were repeatedly criticised for failing to reimburse and compensate students.
Mr Humphreys defended the IAA’s actions, saying it sent inspectors to Florida when the course first collapsed, repatriated trainee pilots, seized their training records from the college, and helped students out in any way it could.
He said inspectors also met with Weston National Flight Centre and Atlantic Flight Training Academy in Cork to develop packages to assist former trainees of the Waterford college.
This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Thursday, October 25, 2012
Irish Examiner
By Claire O’Sullivan
Thursday, October 25, 2012
The Irish Aviation Authority has likened the financing of the ill-fated Pilot Training College in Waterford to a Ponzi scheme, and said the director of corporate enforcement should investigate the company’s collapse.
The authority’s director of safety regulation, Kevin Humphreys, yesterday told the Oireachtas transport committee the "absence of cadet sponsorship by airlines" has meant private pilot training is "open to this kind of abuse, that is operating as a Ponzi scheme", as huge injections of finance were regularly required to ensure quality training.
He lamented the lack of airline-sponsored cadetships, such as those previously offered by Aer Lingus and the air corps, describing it as "a lacuna".
IAA chief executive Eamonn Brennan was criticised by TDs and senators, who accused the body of failing to better regulate the school, but the IAA refused to take the blame, saying it is only responsible for safety regulation and that questions on the financing of the company should "go to the director of corporate enforcement".
Senator Denis O’Donovan took aim at Transport Minister Leo Varadkar for his failure "to take control" in the past four months and "find out where the buck lies".
It was agreed that a committee of the Dáil and Seanad will undertake a "full and forensic" investigation of the collapse of the college, which left up to 190 private and partially sponsored students out of pocket by up to €5.5m.
Mr Brennan said the directors of the company should be brought before the committee. "The one people not being called to account are the directors of this company," he said. "The minute this happened, they headed for the hills. We could not contact them. They have not been held to account and we are going around in circles here with the department and IAA."
Fine Gael TD Joe O’Reilly was sharply critical of the college going into liquidation on Oct 2, and then a day later, its chief executive and directors setting up another aviation company, Clearsky.
"It was the reincarnation of a sick, old animal," he said.
Mr Brennan said the IAA will "keep Clearsky under observation".
The IAA and the department were repeatedly criticised for failing to reimburse and compensate students.
Mr Humphreys defended the IAA’s actions, saying it sent inspectors to Florida when the course first collapsed, repatriated trainee pilots, seized their training records from the college, and helped students out in any way it could.
He said inspectors also met with Weston National Flight Centre and Atlantic Flight Training Academy in Cork to develop packages to assist former trainees of the Waterford college.
This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Thursday, October 25, 2012
Last edited by Matrix12; 29th October 2012 at 06:11.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: UK
Unacceptable!
Pilot Training College
440000 Euros of Irish Taxpayers money wasted
Pie in the Sky
Fraud
PTC gets the boot
Clearsky Pilot Training
Mike Edgeworth
Sinead O Marcaigh
Diarmuid Maher
From across Ireland, Europe, USA, Kazakhstan and so many more..... families, students, creditors, businesses governments want answers to what has being going on here. Enough is enough. This is a call for the Irish Government to show once and for all that people like this will not be tolerated in Ireland, and that these people will be perused with the weight of a country in tracking them down. Our Reputation as a sovereign state rides on how you deal with this.
To the Irish Government: This is your opportunity right now, to investigate this matter to the depths of its core. This is your opportunity find the truth. Its time you told us what's going on.
440000 Euros of Irish Taxpayers money wasted
Pie in the Sky
Fraud
PTC gets the boot
Clearsky Pilot Training
Mike Edgeworth
Sinead O Marcaigh
Diarmuid Maher
From across Ireland, Europe, USA, Kazakhstan and so many more..... families, students, creditors, businesses governments want answers to what has being going on here. Enough is enough. This is a call for the Irish Government to show once and for all that people like this will not be tolerated in Ireland, and that these people will be perused with the weight of a country in tracking them down. Our Reputation as a sovereign state rides on how you deal with this.
To the Irish Government: This is your opportunity right now, to investigate this matter to the depths of its core. This is your opportunity find the truth. Its time you told us what's going on.
Last edited by Matrix12; 25th October 2012 at 04:00.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 513
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From: all over the place
One man, his bitch and his lone sheep will not get anywhere. I imagine that every airline, training department, CEO, Chief pilot in the world will have this information over the next few weeks.
It would be very sad if students with Clearsky on their CV found it difficult to get interviews with this baggage attached, go elsewhere. There are reputable companies if you do your research. Keep away from anyone associated with PTC.
They still have your money, they paid themselves salaries for several positions at the same time, Edgeworthless was taking salaries of up to 100k a month with his family.
Don't bend over in the shower Mike, there are many, many who are waiting to oblige. S OM you have nothing to worry about
MATRIX, you are correct. Edgeworthless and his family are a disgrace and an embarrassment to the great Irish Nation and the IAA denying responsibility for the finance is a lie. They have to agree that the company has the financial integrity to operate.
The Faithlegg Country Club guest book will tell a few tales.
Unfortunately, the nation won't see an investigation because there is deep seated corruption there with Edgeworth going back many, many years. Everyone knows it. He did the same in Florida didn't he DM?
Of course this is all rumour and I cannot condone any of the suggestions above
I also agree the Directors/Shareholders need to be brought to book. They knew exactly what was going on. Edgeworthless broke the Directors/Shareholders accounting agreements over 18 months ago and they did NOTHING. They can be contacted if you know where to look
oh well back to real life at FL470
It would be very sad if students with Clearsky on their CV found it difficult to get interviews with this baggage attached, go elsewhere. There are reputable companies if you do your research. Keep away from anyone associated with PTC.
They still have your money, they paid themselves salaries for several positions at the same time, Edgeworthless was taking salaries of up to 100k a month with his family.
Don't bend over in the shower Mike, there are many, many who are waiting to oblige. S OM you have nothing to worry about
MATRIX, you are correct. Edgeworthless and his family are a disgrace and an embarrassment to the great Irish Nation and the IAA denying responsibility for the finance is a lie. They have to agree that the company has the financial integrity to operate.
The Faithlegg Country Club guest book will tell a few tales.
Unfortunately, the nation won't see an investigation because there is deep seated corruption there with Edgeworth going back many, many years. Everyone knows it. He did the same in Florida didn't he DM?
Of course this is all rumour and I cannot condone any of the suggestions above
I also agree the Directors/Shareholders need to be brought to book. They knew exactly what was going on. Edgeworthless broke the Directors/Shareholders accounting agreements over 18 months ago and they did NOTHING. They can be contacted if you know where to look
oh well back to real life at FL470
Last edited by pilotbear; 27th October 2012 at 04:22.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 513
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From: all over the place
And as for AFT, while the PTC sales guys are there, the posts will continue. Make your choices wisely my old friend.
I must emphasise that this not reflection on training standards at AFT as with AW at the helm the training standard will be good provided the recent real life Airline Captain knowledge and experience is integrated into the training and the 2000 hrs in the circuit instructor mentality that we see in most companies is backed off.
Just do not believe that anyone can get you an interview or a job. ONLY you can do that and do not pay the full price and DO not pay up front. There is no requirement whatsoever to do this. Monitor flight for cost and check your bills thoroughly. Remember the sales guys are only interested in your signature not your career, make them work for it.
I must emphasise that this not reflection on training standards at AFT as with AW at the helm the training standard will be good provided the recent real life Airline Captain knowledge and experience is integrated into the training and the 2000 hrs in the circuit instructor mentality that we see in most companies is backed off.
Just do not believe that anyone can get you an interview or a job. ONLY you can do that and do not pay the full price and DO not pay up front. There is no requirement whatsoever to do this. Monitor flight for cost and check your bills thoroughly. Remember the sales guys are only interested in your signature not your career, make them work for it.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 38
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From: Aqaba, Jordan
Dear All;
Mark Roberston is not a member of our staff.
The Boeing study is real and credible, and being quoted by everyone in the industry. The Airbus study says the same, and yes we use them for our sales presentations.
We do not ask anyone to pay upfront. We take a deposit, and 4 additional installements throughout the training, just like all FTO's. Some of the Cabair cadets asked for a pay-as-you-go arrangement and we gladly agreed in view of what they had gone through.
We would welcome a third party audit of our accounts - we have nothing to hide.
Mark Roberston is not a member of our staff.
The Boeing study is real and credible, and being quoted by everyone in the industry. The Airbus study says the same, and yes we use them for our sales presentations.
We do not ask anyone to pay upfront. We take a deposit, and 4 additional installements throughout the training, just like all FTO's. Some of the Cabair cadets asked for a pay-as-you-go arrangement and we gladly agreed in view of what they had gone through.
We would welcome a third party audit of our accounts - we have nothing to hide.
Last edited by mmatalla; 28th October 2012 at 07:32.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
The Boeing study is real and credible, and being quoted by everyone in the industry
And it sounds like you have been suckered in as well by it.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 495
Likes: 4
From: UK
We do not ask anyone to pay upfront. We take a deposit, and 4 additional installements throughout the training, just like all FTO's.
Not all FTOs require payment in that manner. I trained many moons ago at a small school in Bournemouth and each Friday afternoon we got a detailed statement for that weeks flying. As a student I was required to pay that off there and then in full and keep my account in credit (by how much was up to me but as a goodwill gesture I left around £500 in there). I paid by credit card and had the full protection from VISA as a back up.The school was happy as they were getting paid weekly. Most of their expenses such as wages, airport charges and fuel were settled monthly so the school was never out of pocket.
Any other payment means are effectively a ponzi in disguise. Hence why we keep banging on and telling people not to pay upfront.