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Stop moaning and P2F or get out

Old 21st Apr 2012, 04:07
  #1 (permalink)  
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Location: Melbourne
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Stop moaning and P2F or get out

I am sick of hearing all these sob storys of people waiting years and not getting an interview and that all the money they invested is wasted, its quite simple really if your not prepared to P2F or buy a type rating then you should never have started in the 1st place.

this industry is for the rich, and if you do not fall under this status then dont bother trying because you will just be another person on PPRuNe moaning about how its so hard and that you give up and cant get a job.

the truth hurts but this is the way it is, and it really upsets me when I hear of all the sacrifices people have made to get entry level qualifications but cant afford to go any further.

the hopes and dreams of flying a Boeing or Airbus are just that dreams, the reality is that it does get quite boaring after a few months.

this may sound harsh on the people in the boat of MECIR with no type ratings but I am affraid to say that everything i write is true.

The purpose of this post is that perhaps a few people who are thinking of getting in to aviation realise what they are up against and they re-consider before reuining there life's with lack of money and frustration.

to make it all the way you need at a very minimum
ATPL with high pass marks and no re-sit's
MECIR with at least 1 renewal
TR either 737 or 320
P2F 500 hours on type
lots of private multi time
total investment 180,000

giving you around 1,000 hours and 500 hours on type rating going in to your first interview and maybe just maybe you may have a chance
Learjet-45 is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 05:25
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And you're an Aussie??!!

I can (almost) forgive the European wannabes for attitudes like that, because there's zero GA, a bare handful of turboprop and FI jobs remaining, there are dozens of B737/A320 operators to apply to, and the only people hiring are predatory lo-co's anyway. It's far from an ideal situation (in terms of safety as well as T&C's) but it is the situation those guys face.

Coming from someone like an Aussie or American, in a country where there's heaps of real entry level jobs out there for those who are prepared to get off their ass and go find them, your attitude makes me bloody sick.

In addition to which it's a very small industry down under, you've only really got a couple of airlines to apply to even if you did have a TR and some paid time on type. Screw up that one interview and you really are screwed forever, because you have a mark on your back and no turboprop or GA operator will touch you if you're 700 TT / 500 P2F on jets. Very very risky strategy indeed

I really hope I get to be a chief pilot one day, so I can give your P2F ass an interview, and then crush you like the stupid, arrogant, naive, industry destroying little wannabe that you are, and then kick you out of my office in tears while I am handing out the jobs to people who manned up, got off their ass, went bush and learned to fly properly for a few years.

Clown.
Luke SkyToddler is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 09:29
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Luke Skytoddler....

...

4015 is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 10:54
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What he said!

Luke Sky Toddler - spot on!
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Old 22nd Apr 2012, 05:09
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why could you be in tears when you kicked me out of your office?? why could you even give me an interview in the 1st place if you have read P2F on my resume? jokes on you for bringing in a P2F for interview!

just for the record, I dont agree with P2F but it is very sad to read a lot of post's of PPRuNe about pilots losing all there money and no job for them.

the post was mearly supposed to shout that unless you could P2F you many be just another person posting on PPRuNe about how you lost your money and wish you never started your training, goodbye house, wife car etc etc
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Old 22nd Apr 2012, 18:51
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Ooo another juicy p2f discussion coming up me thinks. I'll get the popcorn ready.

Carry on gentlemen.
AlexanderH is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2012, 19:42
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I dont see how P2F can put you at a disadvantage as airlines set a minimum experince on type requirement so the fact that you would go out of your way and pay thousands of dollars to meet there requirement to me shows absoloute dedication to wanting to get your foot in the door.

I know of several cases where people have gone on and done a P2F course and get jobs very soon after finishing.

I dont know these people personally, but I have read a lot of threads of people who have not P2F and are leaving/giving up and are seriously depressed which is very upsetting to read.

P2F does seriously suck, but how else are you supposed to meet the criteria of an airline?

one of the big questions of newly qualified pilots when they are turned away by the airlines is how to I meet the minima?

P2F Vs 5 long years in a low paid GA Job

add up the extra income you would get on an airline salary over 4 years take away the investment you made to P2F then put it against a GA job over 4 years and see what the differnce comes in at...I think you will be surprized
Learjet-45 is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2012, 19:59
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Originally Posted by Learjet-45
P2F does seriously suck, but how else are you supposed to meet the criteria of an airline?

one of the big questions of newly qualified pilots when they are turned away by the airlines is how to I meet the minima?
Has it not occurred that when airlines set a minimum on type requirement they do not want a newly qualified pilot? If they did want a newly qualified pilot, they'd set up a SSTR or enter into an agreement with an FTO to take on their graduates. Some may even still bond for a TR.

The reason they do it is because they know that there are experienced job-hunting pilots out there who will apply. It isn't to feed the P2F frenzy. People like you have misread the situation and thought that this is the case. They then proceed to try and jump the queue by buying experience, usually at an airline that is notorious for below-the-norm standards.

It is simple supply and demand. There are experienced pilots on the market due to the lack of economic prosperity. If airlines were expanding like they were 6 or so years ago, they'd be taking on newly qualified people as that pool wouldn't exist as less airlines would be going out of business.

Just because you are qualified does not mean you are owed a job. This is true in every single sector out there.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 00:03
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The way I see it, P2f or not, you need luck(a lot of it) or connections.
I know of several guys that graduated flight school, and are hired by their national career. Others that paid for 500 hours P2F, and joined Qatar airways as fast track second officers, and many others that have been unemployed for a very long time.

Even with p2f programs, you could end up at home.
500 hours make you eligible for VERY few airlines out there.
Connections are what will be helpful.

I have seen with my own eyes, guys that are very knowledgable, passionate, and that would make extremely good pilots, sitting at home, whilst others that have had everything easy, and dont give any interest, or put bare minimum effort, these guys are 320 first officers.

It is what it is.
This is and has been the case for a long time now.
Aviation is a very cruel, unfair, and unforgiving industry.
330airbus is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 02:00
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Aviation is a very cruel, unfair, and unforgiving industry
Very true. I am aware that 500 P2F will not gaurentee you a job, but your more likley to be hired than the likes of someone with a frozen ATPL, MECIR and 250 hours on a PA28 or 172. the message from the start was that a frozen ATPL and IR are not enough these days. the real tradgedy with Airline jobs is that the longer P2F is around the worse the salary's will become and working condition's.
Learjet-45 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 03:05
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So tell me Learjet you little Einstein, since you obviously have it all sussed out and you know so much about how the industry works in Oz ...

1) What country and what operator are you going to buy your hours from, and

2) What airlines are you going to apply to once you've finished?

Luke SkyToddler is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 07:16
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Weather yu payed 2 fli or not i wood not contimplait employing yu until yu did somefing about you're apalling spellin and gramer!
Kelly Hopper is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 09:44
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Luke raises a very good point. My European A330/320/1 airline has been recruiting on and off since 2006/07. I am not aware of any P2F people being successful in getting their foot in the door let alone being called for interview. The successful people were mostly 250 hour Oxford/Jerez recruits, some modular, experienced ones from FR, Aer Arran, Cityjet and a few Easy and other regional TP operators. All proper airlines with high standards of training. I believe it to be the same across the other national mainstream operators.

Go off to Eaglejet et al if you wish but mark my words you will spend the rest of your career going to and fro from each tinpot airline on temporary contract if your lucky. As soon as you get settled you will get shafted either by the contract agency, the local CAA wanting ex pats out or the airline itself. You will struggle to raise a mortgage in any civilised country as you will not be full time employed.

Sounds great, where do I sign?
MCDU2 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 09:53
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Weather yu payed 2 fli or not i wood not contimplait employing yu until yu did somefing about you're apalling spellin and gramer!

Sorry was this post supposed to be about yourself?
Learjet-45 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 09:56
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you will hardly hear about any P2F pilots on hear as we are all to busy flying planes and getting on with our duties to be on PPRuNe bitching like 3 years olds

face facts, P2F is going to take over and there is nothing you can do about it...live with it
Learjet-45 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 10:09
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Luke I am not an airline pilot this post as I have said a number of times now is to stop people thinking they can get in to airlines with a MECIR and there training hours.

I finish my training in June and have a job flying the Citation 550 out of Cambridge UK for corporate travel.

I would personally hate to be in the airline industry from what I have heard working conditions are like
Learjet-45 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 11:34
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I should read the whole thread sometimes.

Just remember these words, if your job is starting in June then you don't have a job yet.
Dan the weegie is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 11:51
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Learjet you are talking utter crap!!
SinBin is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 13:11
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City Flyer I admire the way you have done it and I wish it could be like that for all cases.

SinBin your attitude towards me is poor and I hope your never on my RT hand side on the flight deck

Dan the weegie yes job does not start until june but aircraft is owned by family so its a formality.
Learjet-45 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 13:56
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So let me get this right.

-You finish training in June
-You have a job lined up on a C550, so I assume you'll have 250hrs at the end of June?
-The only reason you have this job is because of family
-You're preaching P2F or gtfo.

If my assumptions are correct, I think it's safe to ignore you and say that you must practice what you preach. If I'm wrong, where did you get your hours?
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