Short field landing problems- anyone help?
Guest
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If you're going to Cedar Key, I'd practice my cross winds before my short fields.
Those palm trees'll have you doing more footwork than David Beckham.
Also, back-track down the runway and avoid the sand on the apron at all costs. Two other planes and I were stuck in them for four hours until a truck could pull us out!
PS Try and hire a rod and fish off the pier - fantastic
Those palm trees'll have you doing more footwork than David Beckham.
Also, back-track down the runway and avoid the sand on the apron at all costs. Two other planes and I were stuck in them for four hours until a truck could pull us out!
PS Try and hire a rod and fish off the pier - fantastic
Guest
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As an instructor (now part time) landings have always been a "pet" teach, What does chew up rwy is the student changing their aiming point the closer thay get to the rwy.On finals pick a point near the threshold and stick to it!!!!! right down to 10ft gradually retarding the power, then hold off and fly the aeroplane to the other end of the rwy without the power on the aircraft will settle. Appch speed is also important so refer to the POH for the aircraft you are flying (C152 55kts)
Good luck
Skysurfer
Good luck
Skysurfer
Guest
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BANGRATTLERATTLERATTLETHUMP !!!!!!!!! Don't you love airfields with the deckchairs out on the grass set up facing the runway ??
The basis of consistent good short field landings is being able to do consistent normal distance ones and adapting the technique. Its good to practise SF ones during the low TT stage of learning to become aware of the principles involved, just don't hammer the aircraft trying to get the distance less and less. Get real good at normal ones first before trying to stop in 200m.
You can use the low and slow drive in, or the steep angle low power technique; it depends on the aircraft and your experience level.
I use a constant airspeed (throttle) and constant aimpoint (stick); constant = stabilised, for any type of landing, including both kinds of short fielder, although you get a better aimpoint perspective with a steep approach.
If you nail IAS and aimpoint control on any approach you won't bounce or float, but remember all speeds are gross weight dependant. A bounce or float means too much speed = energy, so if you nail IAS at 500' you'll be ok all the way to where you stop. The key is "the correct speed" not "any slow speed" (The slow speed -> stall/thump is more of a ricochet rather than a true bounce).
Make small quick corrections to airspeed and aimpoint, not big ones which cause damped pitch oscillations and an unstable approach with the acft feeling constantly out of trim. When its set the acft will just sit relatively stable all the way down final.
Shears, crosswind and gusts you ask ??? That's what the pilot's for..
In any case, pick an practise aimpoint 200m into the runway.
Doing a low slow one with a high lift/high drag wing and a low experience level and gusty conditions can get you in a low IAS, low height, up the wrong side of the drag curve situation and a real short heavy landing. If you do these types of approach then practise slow flight at height and get and stay very current on approach configuration full flap power on stalls. They are a means to get very short field landings but at the risk of having to hide the dead sheep or guide dog wrapped around a mainwheel. When you get a couple of hundred hours on type and a calm day have a go.
Some commercial aircraft at MGW would be nogo with these.
For a steep approach, set approach IAS at min drag (the bottom of the drag curve) +5kts, for the GW at the time (book min drag speed is usually quoted at MGW), reducing power to get rid of the 5 kts by flare height. A steep approach can mean too high a IAS, so next time a tad less power and/or less steep, till you like it. Remember power + attitude = performance. This technique takes more time to get used to so seems harder but is much better in the long run.
This technique can be limited in some aircraft that run out of backstick with full flap and forward CG.
What you want at the end of either approach is entering the flare with IAS reducing up the left side of the drag curve from min drag speed, power reducing to idle, height decreasing without float as you enter ground effect, and the aircraft feeling "dead" not ready to do a bounce or float, and all at the same time. (The true conasewers will hear the prop make a funny little sound too..) Boomp. Then throttle check closed, get directional control, stick back and brakes on.
On a dirt strip the rough stuff starts where the RWY surface stops - if you land 2m short you'll get bent gear and spars and bits of your reputation will stay there. You have some excuse if you fall into a new hole ON the runway !
The basis of consistent good short field landings is being able to do consistent normal distance ones and adapting the technique. Its good to practise SF ones during the low TT stage of learning to become aware of the principles involved, just don't hammer the aircraft trying to get the distance less and less. Get real good at normal ones first before trying to stop in 200m.
You can use the low and slow drive in, or the steep angle low power technique; it depends on the aircraft and your experience level.
I use a constant airspeed (throttle) and constant aimpoint (stick); constant = stabilised, for any type of landing, including both kinds of short fielder, although you get a better aimpoint perspective with a steep approach.
If you nail IAS and aimpoint control on any approach you won't bounce or float, but remember all speeds are gross weight dependant. A bounce or float means too much speed = energy, so if you nail IAS at 500' you'll be ok all the way to where you stop. The key is "the correct speed" not "any slow speed" (The slow speed -> stall/thump is more of a ricochet rather than a true bounce).
Make small quick corrections to airspeed and aimpoint, not big ones which cause damped pitch oscillations and an unstable approach with the acft feeling constantly out of trim. When its set the acft will just sit relatively stable all the way down final.
Shears, crosswind and gusts you ask ??? That's what the pilot's for..
In any case, pick an practise aimpoint 200m into the runway.
Doing a low slow one with a high lift/high drag wing and a low experience level and gusty conditions can get you in a low IAS, low height, up the wrong side of the drag curve situation and a real short heavy landing. If you do these types of approach then practise slow flight at height and get and stay very current on approach configuration full flap power on stalls. They are a means to get very short field landings but at the risk of having to hide the dead sheep or guide dog wrapped around a mainwheel. When you get a couple of hundred hours on type and a calm day have a go.
Some commercial aircraft at MGW would be nogo with these.
For a steep approach, set approach IAS at min drag (the bottom of the drag curve) +5kts, for the GW at the time (book min drag speed is usually quoted at MGW), reducing power to get rid of the 5 kts by flare height. A steep approach can mean too high a IAS, so next time a tad less power and/or less steep, till you like it. Remember power + attitude = performance. This technique takes more time to get used to so seems harder but is much better in the long run.
This technique can be limited in some aircraft that run out of backstick with full flap and forward CG.
What you want at the end of either approach is entering the flare with IAS reducing up the left side of the drag curve from min drag speed, power reducing to idle, height decreasing without float as you enter ground effect, and the aircraft feeling "dead" not ready to do a bounce or float, and all at the same time. (The true conasewers will hear the prop make a funny little sound too..) Boomp. Then throttle check closed, get directional control, stick back and brakes on.
On a dirt strip the rough stuff starts where the RWY surface stops - if you land 2m short you'll get bent gear and spars and bits of your reputation will stay there. You have some excuse if you fall into a new hole ON the runway !
Guest
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In my old job, we aimed for a VAT of Vstall1.1.
Follow a normal approach with a gradual reduction of speed on short finals (300' and lower).
As some of the other guys have mentioned, you will be on the 'wrong' side of the drag curve. As such you will require power to maintain your speed.
Use the stick to point at the no.s, the power for speed. Gradually reduce speed to VAT. Slight check back prior to touchdown. Upon impact, close the throttle and stand on the brakes.
Doddle!
Follow a normal approach with a gradual reduction of speed on short finals (300' and lower).
As some of the other guys have mentioned, you will be on the 'wrong' side of the drag curve. As such you will require power to maintain your speed.
Use the stick to point at the no.s, the power for speed. Gradually reduce speed to VAT. Slight check back prior to touchdown. Upon impact, close the throttle and stand on the brakes.
Doddle!
Guest
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Lots of advice so far - I add some from a commercial perspective - BN2s in PNG.
Firstly some ground rules - The information in the flight Manual calls for a 50' threshold crossing height, which if continuing on a 3 degree glidesploe will result in a touchdown about 954' in from the end - good if you've got it lets take a daily example of mine:
FANE 08 33 00S 147 05 00E, Elev 4300' Length 451 m Slope 12% Grass.
Firstly the uphill slope catchs many first timers out - they land jump on the brakes then realise that full power is required to "taxi" to the top.
The technique I've found that is safest is to fly the normal 3 degree path with the speed nailed on 55 kias full flap and power as req. until crossing about 10' high 20' in from the end of the strip and cutting the power andflaring at same. The amount of flare is critical as the BN can be prone to a heavy thump resulting in a rippled wing. Feet away from the brake then a burst of power to roll to the end.
This technique other than the burst of power, I use quite successfully into all strips where a go-round is not an option, or the strip is specifically short.
Even the PA28 and C172 this technique should work - not sure about the speeds though but always cross check with your Operating Book - the details in section 4 always specify the technique and Vat (Vref).
Firstly some ground rules - The information in the flight Manual calls for a 50' threshold crossing height, which if continuing on a 3 degree glidesploe will result in a touchdown about 954' in from the end - good if you've got it lets take a daily example of mine:
FANE 08 33 00S 147 05 00E, Elev 4300' Length 451 m Slope 12% Grass.
Firstly the uphill slope catchs many first timers out - they land jump on the brakes then realise that full power is required to "taxi" to the top.
The technique I've found that is safest is to fly the normal 3 degree path with the speed nailed on 55 kias full flap and power as req. until crossing about 10' high 20' in from the end of the strip and cutting the power andflaring at same. The amount of flare is critical as the BN can be prone to a heavy thump resulting in a rippled wing. Feet away from the brake then a burst of power to roll to the end.
This technique other than the burst of power, I use quite successfully into all strips where a go-round is not an option, or the strip is specifically short.
Even the PA28 and C172 this technique should work - not sure about the speeds though but always cross check with your Operating Book - the details in section 4 always specify the technique and Vat (Vref).
Guest
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The key to a short field approach is the set up. Get it wrong and you should make an early decision to go around and set it up again. Gentlemen it's all about attitude for speed not power and anyone aspiring for an airline career must sort this out now - fly attitude and your speed will look after itself. So select full flap and get the aim point sorted if your not going to hit the end of the runway go around before you get too low and into danger. Too many pilots persevere (spellcheck pse!!) when the approach starts all wrong. As for you chaps moaning about hay bales etc F-14 in a force 7 to USS Enterprise in the Indian Ocean 1988 - now that's a short field landing - oh for those golden days.
Guest
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Normal approach or whatever is required for the obsticle clearance. Try not to be to low, if you get any sink etc you could eat some trees! Also remember this, the greater the decent angle for a given IAS the less forward velocity!! Have the throttle fricton more or less off so your hand has full and easy control of the power, always use full flap. Pick your point to land gradually reducing power and speed so that at the point of flare the aircraft is about to stall and basically does as you touch the ground. Land it!! do not try for a pretty landing, floating down the runway is wasted braking distance. Keep the pole hard back.
This is how we are taught down here, works pretty well on 3-500m strips and beaches etc.
Of course any real short field work is always done in a Cessna!!
This is how we are taught down here, works pretty well on 3-500m strips and beaches etc.
Of course any real short field work is always done in a Cessna!!
Guest
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Until very recently I had not landed on anything shorter than a mile!
Went to Leicester (EGBG) and had some great fun with short field, x-wind landings on RWY 04 (480m). After that, I had even more fun on some of their slightly shorter grass runways.
I also used to suffer the "float" problem with PA 28's !! Now... not too bad!
ETR
Eric Bass got da power!
Went to Leicester (EGBG) and had some great fun with short field, x-wind landings on RWY 04 (480m). After that, I had even more fun on some of their slightly shorter grass runways.
I also used to suffer the "float" problem with PA 28's !! Now... not too bad!
ETR
Eric Bass got da power!
