Short field landing problems- anyone help?
 

Circuit bashing the other day to try and improve my landings (which are seem to be getting worse rather than better), and I thought I'd try short field landings as I could never really master them during my training.

I was taught by my instructor to give it max. flap and a quite steep approach with a very late round out and flare, applying brakes almost as soon as all three wheels are on the ground. In my GFT, however, the examiner wasn't impressed with my technique, saying that I should be doing it long, low and slow (the landings, that is).

What do other people do when faced with a short field? At the moment the only thing I seem to be doing is kangaroo impressions.

What are you flying wx?

I tend to fly tommies more than anything else and my instructor taught me to land long, slow and low, controlling the descent with power, I don't fancy the idea of a steep approach for the short field landing, you'd be too fast in the flare, if you were to do that in something like a Warrior you'd never get the flipping thing on the ground.

As an aside in warriors I find the easiest way to land them is short field/powered approach, you don't gilde half as much. Anybody else do the same?

Warriors and C152s. Mostly C152s though. I appreciate that you wouldn't want to do a steep approach. I don't like doing it either as you are <this> close to stalling speed with the horizon about 1/2 to 3/4 the way up the windscreen (that's steep). Therefore when you get to about 100ft, there is a tendency (involuntary) to pitch up... bringing you closer than comfortable to stalling speed.

Of course the simple answer is to do it the long low and slow method. However I've never done this before and would like to hear how others do it (lets say in a 152 or a 172).

Cheers in advance!

I'm a warrior driver and I try to bring it it long, low and slow, especially for a short field, other wise I end up floating all the way down the runway. Also, it means less control input than if you were coming in steep to level out.

Fortunately East Mids has a bloody long runway...well for a warrior anyway, enabling several ballons, bounces, prop grinding tarmac, losing undercarriage along the way before finally coming to halt!! ;) Obviously I'd have gone around long before that!

Pete Tong got power

Tongy, you just described a typical PJ warrior landing!!!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who treats warriors like that, they do glide forever.

WX

I'm not sure about 172s but in a warrior I tend to keep it at 80kt on final, reducing to 65 at the threshold, holding the speed and descent with extra power before cutting the power over the numbers, no bumps, no bounces.

I also have the luxury of a long runway at Cardiff but tend to sod off to Swansea and Shobdon every now and again to deprive myself of that luxury and keep the landings crisp.

I've never flown a 152, but in our 150 I never use full flap (40 degrees) since it'll never go around with that much flap on.

That's it, really.

Just my 2 cents

That steep aproach would mean a hefty pitch change with the addition of power at the same time to arrest descent ?

Too much to do at once to begin with and perhaps why 172s don't have 40 deg. flaps anymore.(now putting on a helmet)

I would suggest a more stabilised and mabe a little flatter aproach to 50 feet and pull back the power to drop you onto the spot with a "little" burst of power to arrest descent before the flare.

This shouldn't mean dragging it in ,just moving your aim point back a bit from standard and using smaller throttle changes to control descent at the end with smaller changes in attitude to nail the minnimum speed.

Aim for a specific point every time till youve got it sussed and then move back.

simple to write, harder to do

Gog

The method that worked for me in Warriors was to make a shallower approach, much less than the normal 3 degrees, as slow as possible, with full flap. Cut the approach speed by 5 knots on finals. You will find barely any flare, with the nosewheel touching down an instant after the mains.

If however, you are obstacle limited on the approach, say a 50ft tree on the threshold, this is obviously not going to work and the steep dive at the threshold, followed by a mighty heave backwards will work, as long as you accept that the landing is not going to be pretty. Accurate speed control is the key, and with full flap, it should smack down on the runway and stay there. Hopefully, you will hear the stall-warner buzz at you, as you round out, if it's gone as planned.

Be prepared to go-around if it all goes pear-shaped. There will be some tendency to float, so you will obviously require a longer runway for the latter technique.

I haven't flown a Warrior in ages, but I do seem to recall there is a short-field performance section at the back of the POH which includes tables for both obstacle-limited and non-obstacle limited landings.

The warrior wing has quite a chord for an aircraft of its class, and it will quite happily turn any excess speed into a float down the runway, as several of you have already pointed out !

On the BCPL course using a Warrior we were aiming for 58Kt over the threshold, full flap on a short field approach.

I've always struggled on this one, but my most recent instuctor got me as close to acceptable as I'm gonna be:

As you turn final put on full flap, forget the approach speed just chuck the nose down and lose a lot of height (staying in the white arc of course).

Adopt a very nose high attitude (don't know approach speed in C150's I'm afraid). Drag is very high 'cos of the attitude so you MUST do a power-on landing (my instructor reckoned that was the secret ingredient).

I was taught in a PA28 and I never had problems of floating - quite the opposite (and what's wrong with dropping fromn 15ft?)!


BUT,

1 I hate doing them 'cos engine failure means curtains - there's no way you can make the field
2 My PPL GFT examiner hated them too for the same reasons. In his words: "I'd rather hit a tree at 30kts, than drop short at 65kts". He asked me to prove I could do a 'drop late from high' short field in the same test.

The trick is to get on the wrong end of the drag curve (yes even PA28 and C152's have them). For the Warrior if you can get it stabilised at 62kts or less then you can give it armfulls of welly (technical term in the trade) and it wn't accelerate much. It will however drop very nicely if you chop the throttle as you scrape over the hedge. For the 152 the critical speed is 54kts ( it has more flap drag than the Warrior ).

Mind you - don't try it in gusty or windshear conditions. A good idea is to select a touch down point some distance in from the threshold - then if you do drop it at least you are on the runway. That assumes a decent size runway of course.

pjdj777 - Shobdon? Pah! I laugh in the face of the Shobdon mile straight, I tweak the nose of Swansea colossus, you want to try the 800 metres of pure adrenalin which is the EGCW scratch of tarmac. Overloaded lorrys piled with hay on the approach, 60ft screen of trees on thje climbout, a railway and river to the left and half of Manwebs main trunk line to the right - and you tell the youngsters of today and they don't believ you eh TBone?!?

WWW

Hey WWW have you tried EGCBs RWY 32?
410m of pure adrenaline with the street lamps of the A57 a few meters short of the threshold and a nice bumpy runway to greet you (if you make it past the street lamps!)

P.S. The street lamps have been specially lowered for the approach.

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Push forward - Pigs get bigger
Pull back - Pigs get smaller
Pull back some more - Pigs get bigger again

[This message has been edited by Squealing Pig (edited 13 September 1999).]

Dump the flap , Pull it into reverse...and jump on the ancors....and stick your foot out the door onto the ground like the Flintstones...

cheers!!

Try a helicopter.

Personally I reckon that the Warrior wing makes stabilised approaches slightly more difficult than in a straight wing Cherokee. Having read the above, I think that WWW has definitely given the best advice. For normal approaches in the Warrior, we go for 75 KIAS on base, turn final, select full flap adjust attitude to achieve an approach speed (NOT threshold speed!!) of 65 KIAS, then select touchdown point and fly 'point and power' all the way down until the flare - throttle to idle without delay, look at the far end and hold off until touchdown. We do not publish 'short field' data for the PA28s any more, but if you fly the same technique as normal only reducing your approach speed by about 5 KIAS and reducing to idle power JUST before the flare it'll sit down happily enough and allow you to concentrate on braking. Most landing problems seem to result from far too high an approach speed (80 KIAS+) followed by an excessive flare ballooning the aircraft back into the sky whereupon the pilot gives up hope and allows the aircraft to smite the ground. This is often due to the increasing out-of-trim force as the speed reduces during the flare which is difficult to manage comfortably if the aircraft has been flown all the way down to the flare in trim some 25 kts above the speed at which it should ultimately kiss the deck.

Wx Man I am the king on bouncing the aircraft on landing. The short field landing on the 172 is pretty hair raising as you have full flap and think that you are going to fall out of the sky. If you fly your speed and aim at the threshold you should come down alright. I have found that most bouncing occurs at low speeds so you will just have to continually practice landing. After a long while I finally stopped bouncing and believe me, greasing it on is one of the best feelings of flying.

Good Luck

Shallow and slow, every time. I tried the other way in a Warrior (which for reasons known only to the CFI would not idle) and floated halfway down the runway on a dribble of power before finally dribbling off enough airspeed to drop in from what felt like a great height. Not something I´m terribly proud of.

Low and slow, dragging it in with power. Don't forget, if you get a hefty rate of descent at lowish airspeeds (such as the short field approach speed) you could be getting close to your stalling AoA. When you go to arrest this ROD in the flare you'll find you run out of elevator (v quickly on some types) and get at least a heavy landing. Maybe you'll get an extremely short landing run by digging in the nosewheel or flattening the mainwheels but this isn't the objective.

Hope this helps.


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Get there eventually

Thanks for all the advice guys. I've got the 152 booked again for Monday, so I'll give it a go then... and let you know it went! I'll be giving it the low and slow touch ("Flying an aeroplane is like... making love to beautiful woman" to paraphrase Swiss Tony of The Fast Show.

Okay WWW, Shobdon and Swansea may not be the shortest fields around, but that's as short as I like to go in a warrior, though I have thrown one into Compton Abbas (MIND THE TREE!!) and Cedar Key, Fl (which has got to be the shortest runway EVER).

Anyway - I'm happy - passed my IMC flight test last night :)

Funnily enough the reason that I'm practicing my short field landings is that I intend to go to FL maybe later this year or early next year, and I would like to go that Cafe outside Cedar Key that everyone raves about (well, it's not the only reason but it's a good excuse).

I have never been there (well, I have, but only in FS98), but a load of the guys I was with when I was there did an outing to Cedar Key for lunch, and tried to impress each other with their landings. The last guy in (then a cabin steward with BA) apparently hit the deck like a meteor and bounced 4 times before coming to a halt somewhere incredibly close to the end of the runway... and the sea!

Anyway, thanks for the advice guys, I'll let you know how it goes on Monday... once I've settled the insurance claims.