SFT No longer???
Join Date: Oct 2001
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There has been plenty of advice on here about "only pay by credit card" becuase then you have some claim if the company goes down.
A mate of mine lost £35,000 when SECOAT went down about 5 yrs ago - he had to work in Saudi Arabia for 2 yrs to earn enough to finance his licence.
Sorry to hear the news - I hate to see people lose cash, but the credit card advice is good. I would advise the same for people paying for training here or at OATS - too big a risk at anytime, let alone the present (remember SECOAT went down when the market was good!).
A mate of mine lost £35,000 when SECOAT went down about 5 yrs ago - he had to work in Saudi Arabia for 2 yrs to earn enough to finance his licence.
Sorry to hear the news - I hate to see people lose cash, but the credit card advice is good. I would advise the same for people paying for training here or at OATS - too big a risk at anytime, let alone the present (remember SECOAT went down when the market was good!).
Hope they can sort things out for current students.
I am due to leave for USA on Saturday, i know resident students have had letters, but i have heard nothing just rumour from here
Seems a good school, good posts on here, just hope i can salvage some of my 5000
I am due to leave for USA on Saturday, i know resident students have had letters, but i have heard nothing just rumour from here
Seems a good school, good posts on here, just hope i can salvage some of my 5000
Jet Blast Rat
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Finally, in answer to those that quote the August rumours, can you really have forgotten the date the world changed? That was September 11th, well after that discussion.
The effect on the flight training industry is unfortunate and frustrating, especially when discouragement comes from peope posting here who really should know better. SFT has lost students since September. Apparently a very large course was due to start on Monday, a sign of how we were picking up after the twin hit of JAA and NVQ tax relief. Most of those cancelled. If students were not cancelling SFT would still be trading - the company was still profitable, cash flow was the problem.
Yet this is the time to start flying training. By the time a student finishes, maybe on average 15 months time, there is likely to be a desperate shortage of pilots, as the industry is getting back to normal. Notice very few pilots have been laid off. There was a pre-existing shortage, that will be felt again within a year, probably in 6 months.
So all those thinking of training, do it. There is no better time. And if SFT get the capital injection it needs, come down to the best FTO in the UK, with the best weather, the best airport and Bournemouth, a great town.
The effect on the flight training industry is unfortunate and frustrating, especially when discouragement comes from peope posting here who really should know better. SFT has lost students since September. Apparently a very large course was due to start on Monday, a sign of how we were picking up after the twin hit of JAA and NVQ tax relief. Most of those cancelled. If students were not cancelling SFT would still be trading - the company was still profitable, cash flow was the problem.
Yet this is the time to start flying training. By the time a student finishes, maybe on average 15 months time, there is likely to be a desperate shortage of pilots, as the industry is getting back to normal. Notice very few pilots have been laid off. There was a pre-existing shortage, that will be felt again within a year, probably in 6 months.
So all those thinking of training, do it. There is no better time. And if SFT get the capital injection it needs, come down to the best FTO in the UK, with the best weather, the best airport and Bournemouth, a great town.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Im really really sorry to hear about this. I was one of the ones all set to start an Integrated at SFT this month but the state of the airline industry and a few personal issues caused a rethink.
I have to say though that SFT were by far the most approachable, friendly, honest and well meaning of the schools I visited - far better than OATS in this regard. In addition their pricing was highly competitive and the people superb.
I wish all the students and staff success in rejuvinating their excellent FTO and I hope to start my course with you very soon.
Speak soon,
Jonathan
I have to say though that SFT were by far the most approachable, friendly, honest and well meaning of the schools I visited - far better than OATS in this regard. In addition their pricing was highly competitive and the people superb.
I wish all the students and staff success in rejuvinating their excellent FTO and I hope to start my course with you very soon.
Speak soon,
Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2001
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'Most of the instructors (I included, and I was already redundant last Wednesday) have already agreed to work for nothing.' and something about SFT being profitable.
Doesn't that suggest that Send Clowns really is a clown?
Doesn't that suggest that Send Clowns really is a clown?
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As a matter of interest, how does one manage to get a £7,000-50,000 rating on a credit card to pay by this means up-front? Most credit card companies I know have from the upper hundreds to £2-5000 credit limit, unless you have super- rich parents.
What's the mechanism, other than, perhaps, paying in small whacks, which may be unacceptable to the school?
What's the mechanism, other than, perhaps, paying in small whacks, which may be unacceptable to the school?
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Send Clowns, mate, you really take the p!ss ... you say you've been redundant since last Wednesday, your company's gone bust, they've got you agreeing to work for nothing, and you still come on here and spend your evening shamelessly spamming the PPRuNe punters to come and rescue your sinking ship!
Much like yourself, I'm an experienced flying instructor that's been made redundant in the last few days, my employer is also making some pretty severe down sizing as the result of the collapse in CPL training post September.
No matter how desperate you and your company's need is however, I reckon it's bloody irresponsible of any instructors to go urging people to commit their life savings to flight training at the moment. Any sane person can see that this industry is still standing on the edge of the abyss ... yeah it *might* recover in 15 months but it only needs one little push (like, say, another hijack episode) for it to go into a state of total collapse from which it might take many years to recover.
And as for you saying 'notice very few pilots have been laid off' ... apart from ourselves you mean?
Do you think people are blind? I do appear to have noticed several hundred more of the poor sods over on R&N ... do the words 'Virgin' 'BMI' or 'Gill' mean anything to you? Plus the several hundred self improvers and people from cancelled sponsorships that will be hitting the dole queue in the next few months? Plus the couple of years worth of FI's that will have been logging the hours and waiting for things to turn round all that time? Have you read a single thing WWW has posted these last few weeks?
The forum moderators are advising people to sit on their hands and NOT commit any big sums of money to training for the next few months, until the medium term job prospects become clearer. I fully support them in giving that advice, even though it's cost me my own livelihood at the moment.
Much like yourself, I'm an experienced flying instructor that's been made redundant in the last few days, my employer is also making some pretty severe down sizing as the result of the collapse in CPL training post September.
No matter how desperate you and your company's need is however, I reckon it's bloody irresponsible of any instructors to go urging people to commit their life savings to flight training at the moment. Any sane person can see that this industry is still standing on the edge of the abyss ... yeah it *might* recover in 15 months but it only needs one little push (like, say, another hijack episode) for it to go into a state of total collapse from which it might take many years to recover.
And as for you saying 'notice very few pilots have been laid off' ... apart from ourselves you mean?
Do you think people are blind? I do appear to have noticed several hundred more of the poor sods over on R&N ... do the words 'Virgin' 'BMI' or 'Gill' mean anything to you? Plus the several hundred self improvers and people from cancelled sponsorships that will be hitting the dole queue in the next few months? Plus the couple of years worth of FI's that will have been logging the hours and waiting for things to turn round all that time? Have you read a single thing WWW has posted these last few weeks?The forum moderators are advising people to sit on their hands and NOT commit any big sums of money to training for the next few months, until the medium term job prospects become clearer. I fully support them in giving that advice, even though it's cost me my own livelihood at the moment.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Tosh you pay the funds onto your credit card!!!
You cannot go over your credit limit say 2,000, but there is nothing stopping you spending 52,000 if you have paid 50,000 into the credit card account.
Sagey
You cannot go over your credit limit say 2,000, but there is nothing stopping you spending 52,000 if you have paid 50,000 into the credit card account.
Sagey
Jet Blast Rat
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Skytoddler
Part of the point is we are willing to help the company out with no reward. We have loyalty because the company was a good one, and we have faith that it is likely to be bought out. Of course I come here to put my view of this across. There are domesayers like you here and have been spreading gloom for weeks as a ill-juded reaction, the other view needs to be put across.
The airlines have laid off large numbers of people, but relatively few of those are pilots. Yes some have lost sponsorship, some have early retirement, but the point is the latter are uneconomic to employ in airlines. One example you gave was Gill, but when they went bust their routes were taken over within two days - so people still have to fly them. I understand business aviation is doing well, as companies trust their vital personnel to them. Even airline business is fairly buoyant. Regionals lost some at first but reported recovery within two weeks (from an analyst who had spoken to all the UK airlines), transatlantic business and middle-east business has been badly affected, but is recovering. It's nay-sayers in the media that caused the problems - there is no nderlying weakness.
If you talk to the industy analysts (an independent analyst, ex-OATS, came to talk to us weeks ago) this will recover, and fairly quickly. He was talking 6 month to two years. Then there is a forecast of critical pilot shortages. The analyst pointed out that airline sponsorship programmes fell off at every slump, and every time this caused a lack of pilots. He emphasised that this is not unique - he had seen 3 slumps before, and all followed the pattern.
Your comment about complete collapse of aviation was just scaremongering. The only way the airline industry could totally collapse is if the world's economy collapses. Then your money is completely worthless, so you may as well have spent it and enjoyed the flying. And World War III would occur, and we can all join the Air Force. Remember the world's economy depends on aviation. They cannot do without it, and the world's stability depends on money, therefore on the economy.
Part of the point is we are willing to help the company out with no reward. We have loyalty because the company was a good one, and we have faith that it is likely to be bought out. Of course I come here to put my view of this across. There are domesayers like you here and have been spreading gloom for weeks as a ill-juded reaction, the other view needs to be put across.
The airlines have laid off large numbers of people, but relatively few of those are pilots. Yes some have lost sponsorship, some have early retirement, but the point is the latter are uneconomic to employ in airlines. One example you gave was Gill, but when they went bust their routes were taken over within two days - so people still have to fly them. I understand business aviation is doing well, as companies trust their vital personnel to them. Even airline business is fairly buoyant. Regionals lost some at first but reported recovery within two weeks (from an analyst who had spoken to all the UK airlines), transatlantic business and middle-east business has been badly affected, but is recovering. It's nay-sayers in the media that caused the problems - there is no nderlying weakness.
If you talk to the industy analysts (an independent analyst, ex-OATS, came to talk to us weeks ago) this will recover, and fairly quickly. He was talking 6 month to two years. Then there is a forecast of critical pilot shortages. The analyst pointed out that airline sponsorship programmes fell off at every slump, and every time this caused a lack of pilots. He emphasised that this is not unique - he had seen 3 slumps before, and all followed the pattern.
Your comment about complete collapse of aviation was just scaremongering. The only way the airline industry could totally collapse is if the world's economy collapses. Then your money is completely worthless, so you may as well have spent it and enjoyed the flying. And World War III would occur, and we can all join the Air Force. Remember the world's economy depends on aviation. They cannot do without it, and the world's stability depends on money, therefore on the economy.
Flies for fun
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Send Clowns,
I appreciate your optimism, I would be in the same position given the current state of the job market. I am however suggesting caution regarding the " worthwhile assets" it may well be that the debts of SFT exceed the value of the assets which you mention. Your offer to "work for nothing" is very noble and in the absence of alternative employment, may be better than sitting at home. What I puzzle over is your statement that "The problem is of cash flow, and that is being worked on now by a dedicated team of administrators and directors." You see, in my experience, cash flow is a problem caused by a flaw in the basic business equation which should read:- money in is greater than or equal to money going out. An example of an equation spelling disaster is:- money in is less than money going out. Generally, flight schools do not have money owing to them since the source of income is from students who pay as they go or up- front as in many cases. If students are paying up-front then the cash flow would be healthy and in fact the company would appear richer than it actually is because of advance payment. Now, what I and others would like to hear is how a profitable company can possibly have cash flow problems when sales payments are up-front ie: no debtors?????
You say "if the money comes through, which we all expect to happen, SFT will keep up their reputation as perhaps the best flight training provider in the UK." now where is that money likely to come from? Finding somebody to throw money into a bottomless pit seems highly unlikely but indeed possible.
So, do you know the book value of SFT? I have in front of me a copy of the SFT accounts to 31 Dec 2000 and I would wildly guess that there will be a nil dividend to creditors at the end of the day!! The profit for the year to Dec 2000 was actually exactly NIL and that was before the Sept 11 crisis. There is also a complication with the fact that SFT Aviation Ltd had at 31.12.200 Secured creditors owed £183,930 now that means that these creditors cream off the first 183,930 before the others ie: students paying up front etc even get their nose near the trough!!
If anybody wants a copy of the accounts, e-mail me with a fax number or I can try sending as an e-mail attachment!
I hate to be the prophet of doom but if SFT have your money then don't hold your breath to receive the goods other than from kindly folk like Send Clowns who will deliver the goods to you at no charge to SFT!!!
I appreciate your optimism, I would be in the same position given the current state of the job market. I am however suggesting caution regarding the " worthwhile assets" it may well be that the debts of SFT exceed the value of the assets which you mention. Your offer to "work for nothing" is very noble and in the absence of alternative employment, may be better than sitting at home. What I puzzle over is your statement that "The problem is of cash flow, and that is being worked on now by a dedicated team of administrators and directors." You see, in my experience, cash flow is a problem caused by a flaw in the basic business equation which should read:- money in is greater than or equal to money going out. An example of an equation spelling disaster is:- money in is less than money going out. Generally, flight schools do not have money owing to them since the source of income is from students who pay as they go or up- front as in many cases. If students are paying up-front then the cash flow would be healthy and in fact the company would appear richer than it actually is because of advance payment. Now, what I and others would like to hear is how a profitable company can possibly have cash flow problems when sales payments are up-front ie: no debtors?????
You say "if the money comes through, which we all expect to happen, SFT will keep up their reputation as perhaps the best flight training provider in the UK." now where is that money likely to come from? Finding somebody to throw money into a bottomless pit seems highly unlikely but indeed possible.
So, do you know the book value of SFT? I have in front of me a copy of the SFT accounts to 31 Dec 2000 and I would wildly guess that there will be a nil dividend to creditors at the end of the day!! The profit for the year to Dec 2000 was actually exactly NIL and that was before the Sept 11 crisis. There is also a complication with the fact that SFT Aviation Ltd had at 31.12.200 Secured creditors owed £183,930 now that means that these creditors cream off the first 183,930 before the others ie: students paying up front etc even get their nose near the trough!!
If anybody wants a copy of the accounts, e-mail me with a fax number or I can try sending as an e-mail attachment!
I hate to be the prophet of doom but if SFT have your money then don't hold your breath to receive the goods other than from kindly folk like Send Clowns who will deliver the goods to you at no charge to SFT!!!
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Send Clowns me ole mate
Now let me see - you see that this is merely a set back in the SFT operation and that you still tout business for SFT.
Your writing seems to down play the enormity of what has happened and what some future aviators have lost.
If it was merely a cash flow problem then I am sure if anything it would have been done. Cash flow problems do not happen overnight. It has been almost 2 months since the 9th Sept. Surely if anything could have been done it would have been. Or how about talking to the banks/investors???? Then again, maybe they had already used that option? Yet, you seem confident that SFT will be back again imminently.
Sorry clowns, but something must be clouding your judgement! Suggesting students going to the best FTO when that same FTO has gone under, is the most stupid thing I have heard.
I will say however, good on you for offering your time for free. You and the rest of the SFT crowd doing this to finish up students are noble in your quest to which I wish to all luck. We need to have the competition out there - monopolies will only kill the aviation industry. If SFT do get back up and going, good on them, however SFT must know that the return to greatness will take longer this time.
Now let me see - you see that this is merely a set back in the SFT operation and that you still tout business for SFT.
Your writing seems to down play the enormity of what has happened and what some future aviators have lost.
If it was merely a cash flow problem then I am sure if anything it would have been done. Cash flow problems do not happen overnight. It has been almost 2 months since the 9th Sept. Surely if anything could have been done it would have been. Or how about talking to the banks/investors???? Then again, maybe they had already used that option? Yet, you seem confident that SFT will be back again imminently.
Sorry clowns, but something must be clouding your judgement! Suggesting students going to the best FTO when that same FTO has gone under, is the most stupid thing I have heard.
I will say however, good on you for offering your time for free. You and the rest of the SFT crowd doing this to finish up students are noble in your quest to which I wish to all luck. We need to have the competition out there - monopolies will only kill the aviation industry. If SFT do get back up and going, good on them, however SFT must know that the return to greatness will take longer this time.
Flies for fun
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Ahh, speaking of investors, it may be interesting to note that there is a holding company which is SFT Europe Ltd. The plot thickens and the likelyhood of a payout to creditors when there is a closely linked holding company involved is in my opinion less likely!!! But then I'm not a fly on the wall, just realistic!! how about a response from the Directors of SFT Aviation Ltd? or have they gone to gound?
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They say that "what goes around comes around.Whilst i was at PPSC doing my atpl,s i was hearing stories about why the amaligmation between PPSC and SFT broke up. Now Gail must be laughing her tits off.IMHO the place was a recipe for disaster.I mean who would install a bloke as HEAD OF GROUND TRAINING who came out of the RAF worked at ppsc for five mins,speaking from experience,whos teaching ability was almost nil.The ground school alone was a shambles with most of there students leaving and having to go to ppsc to sort them out.I was there i saw it.I sat in the same classroom with them.The best uk training school ?.It would appear for once in my strive to get qualified i made the correct decision.I am not owed any money by them and i have never done any training with them, i went for a look at it i decided no.Very sorry for all the blokes and girls who have lost money to them and i hope it works out for u all.It p----- me off that people trying to get qualified work there ba--- off to reach there dream and outfits like this make some off the worst possible moves to try and stay afloat without thinking of the severe hardship and heartache they are about to cause to countless numbers of students.
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spitfire,
At the this moment, some of the students are in talks with the administrators. No-one is getting straight answers at the moment, so I am unsure as to whether you should go to the USA or not. What I suggest you do is have a look at your travel insurance documentation and see if you are covered for this sort of event occuring and see if you can get at least the momey back for your flight!!!!
Other than that I cannot give you anymore information. I am also in limbo...i am to sit a Met exam in a couple of hours and my mind really isn't on the job...but I am not going to let this beat me!!!!
I should be geting some more info from Bournemouth by the end of the day, so I will keep you informed....but believe me 'you are not alone'!!!!!
MM
At the this moment, some of the students are in talks with the administrators. No-one is getting straight answers at the moment, so I am unsure as to whether you should go to the USA or not. What I suggest you do is have a look at your travel insurance documentation and see if you are covered for this sort of event occuring and see if you can get at least the momey back for your flight!!!!
Other than that I cannot give you anymore information. I am also in limbo...i am to sit a Met exam in a couple of hours and my mind really isn't on the job...but I am not going to let this beat me!!!!
I should be geting some more info from Bournemouth by the end of the day, so I will keep you informed....but believe me 'you are not alone'!!!!!
MM
Midland Maniac
first of all GOOD LUCK with the met, try you rbest under the circumstances.
I spoke to the administrators this morning, he was helpful but had no straight answers for me, if any money of mine went to the USA them ok if not it was in their account and therefore, he said, there was NO REALISTIC chance of getting any back, so i am stuck. Not sure about the US, Naples Air Centre has offered some flying, but all the money i got from the bank i have given to SFT, so depressing !!
first of all GOOD LUCK with the met, try you rbest under the circumstances.
I spoke to the administrators this morning, he was helpful but had no straight answers for me, if any money of mine went to the USA them ok if not it was in their account and therefore, he said, there was NO REALISTIC chance of getting any back, so i am stuck. Not sure about the US, Naples Air Centre has offered some flying, but all the money i got from the bank i have given to SFT, so depressing !!
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Spitfire,
Have you tried going to your Bank Manager and explaining the situation, they may be able to lend you the same amount again, or at the very least give you some more money, so your trip to the States isn't wasted.
Just a suggestion and sorry to hear about your predicament.
Have you tried going to your Bank Manager and explaining the situation, they may be able to lend you the same amount again, or at the very least give you some more money, so your trip to the States isn't wasted.
Just a suggestion and sorry to hear about your predicament.
Jet Blast Rat
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OK, on the cash flow problem of SFT. Yes there is a reason for this, including a lean year due to JAA and NVQ, but more importantly a single event before that. Some of you may know of the legal problems SFT encountered. Although SFT in effect won the case, costs were not awarded, so SFT lost a lot of money. The cash reserves were severely depleted. SFT is still trading profitably. It is easy to understand why it may not have been doing so in 2000 with the problems of JAA and NVQ. However both will be overcome, were being overcome, because pilots are needed to keep the airline industry going.
I repeat SFT did not have a problem of underlying weakness, the problem is lack of immediate liquidity, short-term funds i.e. a cash-flow problem, common in small businesses even if profits are healthy. In good times that is easy to cope with, as sympathetic banks look to proven future business, defined here by deposits taken. The training industry will be lean for a few months, and the banks don't like that. They have a very short-term view. I have seen it in another small business when their bank took fright at recession and withdrew a lot of credit. The banks proved stupid, as the business survived despite that problem, and would have done much better and thus paid the bank more if credit had been available to do more business . Banks do not always see the strength of a business.
Many investors have a longer term view in mind. They can see the underlying strength of the industry and of SFT as a business. There was an offer being discussed recently, but it fell through. Now the same purchaser could buy SFT more cheaply. Who knows if he saved himself £100 000, half a million even by waiting a week. But by the administrator's judgement to the right investor SFT as a whole (part of its assets are its staff who have proved very loyal and its good name) is worth more than its liabilities, and that investors are out there.
Just wait and see. There is no guarantee that SFT will be bought, but people who know very little about the business, and about the people who make up SFT do not help by posting downbeat assesments here.
Edited to correct my terminology.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
I repeat SFT did not have a problem of underlying weakness, the problem is lack of immediate liquidity, short-term funds i.e. a cash-flow problem, common in small businesses even if profits are healthy. In good times that is easy to cope with, as sympathetic banks look to proven future business, defined here by deposits taken. The training industry will be lean for a few months, and the banks don't like that. They have a very short-term view. I have seen it in another small business when their bank took fright at recession and withdrew a lot of credit. The banks proved stupid, as the business survived despite that problem, and would have done much better and thus paid the bank more if credit had been available to do more business
. Banks do not always see the strength of a business.Many investors have a longer term view in mind. They can see the underlying strength of the industry and of SFT as a business. There was an offer being discussed recently, but it fell through. Now the same purchaser could buy SFT more cheaply. Who knows if he saved himself £100 000, half a million even by waiting a week. But by the administrator's judgement to the right investor SFT as a whole (part of its assets are its staff who have proved very loyal and its good name) is worth more than its liabilities, and that investors are out there.
Just wait and see. There is no guarantee that SFT will be bought, but people who know very little about the business, and about the people who make up SFT do not help by posting downbeat assesments here.
Edited to correct my terminology.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
Jet Blast Rat
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Spitfire
I had an email from the company President at Naples Air Centre who is very kean to help out people suffering becase of SFT's problems. Anyone who wants to get in touch with him drop me an email (address in my profile) and I'll put you in touch. Best of luck.
Midland Maniac,
good luck with the exams, mate. At least you passed my subject first time
I had an email from the company President at Naples Air Centre who is very kean to help out people suffering becase of SFT's problems. Anyone who wants to get in touch with him drop me an email (address in my profile) and I'll put you in touch. Best of luck.
Midland Maniac,
good luck with the exams, mate. At least you passed my subject first time