SFT No longer???
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
As far as I can tell SFT is in administration. Putting a company into administration ring-fences it from previous creditors. It can be sold unencumbered by its previous debts, the proceeds from the sale pay off the previous creditors in a strict order. It would be very unusual for unsecured creditors (like customers) to get more than a few pence in the pound back. The purchaser may acquire responsibility for the staff, this is presumably why they have all been made redundant, to reduce the liability as much as possible.
The company can continue to trade whilst in administration and it continues to be liable for rent, etc. whether it trades or not.
If a decision is made to go into liquidation it stops trading and the receiver sells off the company in bits for whatever he can get.
My commiserations to all concerned. I hope you find a buyer.
The company can continue to trade whilst in administration and it continues to be liable for rent, etc. whether it trades or not.
If a decision is made to go into liquidation it stops trading and the receiver sells off the company in bits for whatever he can get.
My commiserations to all concerned. I hope you find a buyer.
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
From: Sarfend-on-Sea
Robione
I find your post distasteful and ill-informed to say the least. You call my colleagues' organisation a shambles when you can't even string a coherent sentence together?
Yes we had problems under the previous CGI (before I joined SFT even as a student) but you don't acknowledge that a new CGI had completely reformed the groundschool. Brian is an excellent and very well-regarded CGI. We all loved to work for him, and would have hated to lose him. We had some excellent instructors, and very good notes. The instructors were some of the best I have seen, ground and flight, despite having been through extremely thorough training in the Royal Navy. Many of the ground instructors had worked for other major schools (OATS, Cabair, Bristow, BAe Jerez), some even had job offers there for more pay. They stayed because they genuinely believed SFT could be the best school, and was the best management to work for. I will argue every time that by the time I started working for them in June it was the best school approved by the CAA for a JAA modular ATPL in the world.
You blatantly lie about "most students" finishing off at PPSC, as most passed the exams without studying anywhere else, because SFT provided good support after courses were finished for anyone struggling to pass (unlike some other schools). Those that did go elsewere went because SFT did not run refresher courses.
I have not only sat in class with students taught by PPSC, I have completed their training when PPSC went out of business. While I have nothing bad to say about their previous instructor (who has a good reputation) they were less well-prepared than our students. In this I would be backed by at least one ex-PPSC student with whom I discussed it. In my opinion this is because they had been rushed through the course - PPSC's course was shorter than SFT's, and structured differently.
The heartache and hardship to students and staff is inescapable, but perhaps because of the way our directors behaved the business can be saved. Blame the banks, the government, Bin Laden, PPSC for the legal action, but unlike in certain other training companies' collapses our directors did everything in their power to minimise the loss to students.
In those other collapses the staff hated the management, vowed never to work for them again. Here the staff were trying to work out if they could afford a buyout, and are working hard, for free, to keep some of the company going. I think all my immediate colleagues will apply for their jobs back if the capital comes and Colin Green is kept on as MD. You understand the difference?
Had SFT not tried to stay afloat the then students definitely would have lost all their money. The effort was to keep the business going, and still is.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
I find your post distasteful and ill-informed to say the least. You call my colleagues' organisation a shambles when you can't even string a coherent sentence together?
Yes we had problems under the previous CGI (before I joined SFT even as a student) but you don't acknowledge that a new CGI had completely reformed the groundschool. Brian is an excellent and very well-regarded CGI. We all loved to work for him, and would have hated to lose him. We had some excellent instructors, and very good notes. The instructors were some of the best I have seen, ground and flight, despite having been through extremely thorough training in the Royal Navy. Many of the ground instructors had worked for other major schools (OATS, Cabair, Bristow, BAe Jerez), some even had job offers there for more pay. They stayed because they genuinely believed SFT could be the best school, and was the best management to work for. I will argue every time that by the time I started working for them in June it was the best school approved by the CAA for a JAA modular ATPL in the world.
You blatantly lie about "most students" finishing off at PPSC, as most passed the exams without studying anywhere else, because SFT provided good support after courses were finished for anyone struggling to pass (unlike some other schools). Those that did go elsewere went because SFT did not run refresher courses.
I have not only sat in class with students taught by PPSC, I have completed their training when PPSC went out of business. While I have nothing bad to say about their previous instructor (who has a good reputation) they were less well-prepared than our students. In this I would be backed by at least one ex-PPSC student with whom I discussed it. In my opinion this is because they had been rushed through the course - PPSC's course was shorter than SFT's, and structured differently.
The heartache and hardship to students and staff is inescapable, but perhaps because of the way our directors behaved the business can be saved. Blame the banks, the government, Bin Laden, PPSC for the legal action, but unlike in certain other training companies' collapses our directors did everything in their power to minimise the loss to students.
In those other collapses the staff hated the management, vowed never to work for them again. Here the staff were trying to work out if they could afford a buyout, and are working hard, for free, to keep some of the company going. I think all my immediate colleagues will apply for their jobs back if the capital comes and Colin Green is kept on as MD. You understand the difference?
Had SFT not tried to stay afloat the then students definitely would have lost all their money. The effort was to keep the business going, and still is.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 38
From: Australia
Sad to see that SFT and PPSC are gone, and so many people have lost their jobs and their hard earned flying money.
What I don't quite see though, Send Clowns, is that you equate working capital with cash flow? I own and run a flying school myself, and my working capital is that which is invested and brings a return, ie the aeroplanes, and which can be liquidated by selling the capital asset if necessary. Cash flow is that which services fixed and variable costs including any hire purchase on working capital.
Cash flow only becomes a problem when debtors fall into arrears, the scourge of small business, and which has to be handled by imposing and enforcing strict credit terms. So...how can cash flow be a problem when the customers are paying in advance, unless the company is hopelessly over comitted financially and therefore insolvent? Most businesses survive without their customers paying in advance, including mine, and many such as retailers also have to carry large amounts of stock in trade, something we flying schools don't have to worry about.
Here in Aus every year the directors have to sign a declaration that they can pay their bills as and when they become due. If the directors borrow money knowing they can't pay it back, they can be held personally liable for the debts if the company collapses, even though the company is "ltd". Is it much different in the UK?
What I don't quite see though, Send Clowns, is that you equate working capital with cash flow? I own and run a flying school myself, and my working capital is that which is invested and brings a return, ie the aeroplanes, and which can be liquidated by selling the capital asset if necessary. Cash flow is that which services fixed and variable costs including any hire purchase on working capital.
Cash flow only becomes a problem when debtors fall into arrears, the scourge of small business, and which has to be handled by imposing and enforcing strict credit terms. So...how can cash flow be a problem when the customers are paying in advance, unless the company is hopelessly over comitted financially and therefore insolvent? Most businesses survive without their customers paying in advance, including mine, and many such as retailers also have to carry large amounts of stock in trade, something we flying schools don't have to worry about.
Here in Aus every year the directors have to sign a declaration that they can pay their bills as and when they become due. If the directors borrow money knowing they can't pay it back, they can be held personally liable for the debts if the company collapses, even though the company is "ltd". Is it much different in the UK?
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: East Anglia
I dont believe it. I just recieved a letter from SFT tonight, offering me new courses with extra discount etc if I book now, Also with a leaflet inviting me to attend a SFT seminar on 24th November. The letter was dated the 25th October (trusty snail mail). Was this a last effort by SFT to stay afloat.
This is a bit out of order, I hope nobody fell into this trap, so quickley.
Good luck to all that have lost there savings for their ultimate goal.
mint
This is a bit out of order, I hope nobody fell into this trap, so quickley.
Good luck to all that have lost there savings for their ultimate goal.
mint
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
From: Sarfend-on-Sea
My apologies for the slip of terminology, CFI. I am a pilot, not a businessman.
Mintflavour
At the time your letter was dated SFT still were in negociations with a buyer. That buyer would want the company in good form, with full order books.
Mintflavour
At the time your letter was dated SFT still were in negociations with a buyer. That buyer would want the company in good form, with full order books.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: u.k
haven't read the whole thread so ignore this if i've missed something,but the thread i did read there was mention of sft finishing off their courses but from bitter experience (ppsc) i know that once a company has finished it is no longer an approved training organisation therefore cannot continue training......
best wishes to all.
best wishes to all.
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
From: Sarfend-on-Sea
Mint,
If you'd read my previous posts you'd realise that had you paid a deposit your check would not have been presented. Very fair I feel. You cannot accuse the company of any dishonesty there, and I feel it is a little unfair for you to make wild accusations when you have not been wronged.
Incipient
The respect shown by the CAA for the CGI and his judgement is such that he was given authority to keep training an approved course in the interim in a single call to the CAA. There is no approval problem for the next three weeks.
Zoru
Are you very sure of your information? Rumours like that can be extremely damaging, especially in an environment where we are all nervous.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
If you'd read my previous posts you'd realise that had you paid a deposit your check would not have been presented. Very fair I feel. You cannot accuse the company of any dishonesty there, and I feel it is a little unfair for you to make wild accusations when you have not been wronged.
Incipient
The respect shown by the CAA for the CGI and his judgement is such that he was given authority to keep training an approved course in the interim in a single call to the CAA. There is no approval problem for the next three weeks.
Zoru
Are you very sure of your information? Rumours like that can be extremely damaging, especially in an environment where we are all nervous.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: bournemouth
Send Clowns,
Welcome to the land of the unemployed. As a much more experienced hand than you in more ways than one (how about twenty six years continuous professional flying and ten years at PPSC?) may I offer you some sound advice?
Keep quiet, head down, don't get involved in too many discussions free to the world wide web (as opposed to "www" whom only we know about).
Incidentally, my e-mail history and telephone calls would completely refute all that you have said about PPSC. You are quite right in that your courses and ours were structured differently........after all, we had been in the game for a lot longer.
To all those caught up in this may I offer my sincere condolences.
The south coast? - WATCH THIS SPACE!
Welcome to the land of the unemployed. As a much more experienced hand than you in more ways than one (how about twenty six years continuous professional flying and ten years at PPSC?) may I offer you some sound advice?
Keep quiet, head down, don't get involved in too many discussions free to the world wide web (as opposed to "www" whom only we know about).
Incidentally, my e-mail history and telephone calls would completely refute all that you have said about PPSC. You are quite right in that your courses and ours were structured differently........after all, we had been in the game for a lot longer.
To all those caught up in this may I offer my sincere condolences.
The south coast? - WATCH THIS SPACE!
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,430
Likes: 44
From: FL390
Thankyou all for all your posts.
Does anyone know the answer to this :
If SFT is now bought as a going concern and starts trading again, will the new owners honour my training agreement, ie the 5000 i paid for training in the usa for a night, imc and 35 hours, or will i just lose that completely
Does anyone know the answer to this :
If SFT is now bought as a going concern and starts trading again, will the new owners honour my training agreement, ie the 5000 i paid for training in the usa for a night, imc and 35 hours, or will i just lose that completely
Guest
Posts: n/a
Once again Spitfire, i seem to be attempting to answer your question!!
From what i believe (and people can correct me if I am wrong) is that if the company is sold as a going concern then, the buyers will carry on trading as a FTO. From what I am hearing, if this is the case then they may AND I MUST STRESS....MAY!!!....offer some money back to the students or training at a reduced rate. Not the best solution for people who have lost 5 figures like myself, but if it does happen it is better than nothing.
I think that the best thing we can all do at the moment is to see what happens over the next week. I personally will be persuing all avenues to get some money back but i suppose only time will tell.
Spitfire, I am going back down to Bournemouth tommorow, so if you want me to ask any questions for you, then email me with your tel. no. and I will see what I can do!!!
Hope that has helped slightly......
Met exam wasn't to bad either...just hope that I have passed it this time. Could do with a bit of good fortune at the moment!!
MM
From what i believe (and people can correct me if I am wrong) is that if the company is sold as a going concern then, the buyers will carry on trading as a FTO. From what I am hearing, if this is the case then they may AND I MUST STRESS....MAY!!!....offer some money back to the students or training at a reduced rate. Not the best solution for people who have lost 5 figures like myself, but if it does happen it is better than nothing.
I think that the best thing we can all do at the moment is to see what happens over the next week. I personally will be persuing all avenues to get some money back but i suppose only time will tell.
Spitfire, I am going back down to Bournemouth tommorow, so if you want me to ask any questions for you, then email me with your tel. no. and I will see what I can do!!!
Hope that has helped slightly......
Met exam wasn't to bad either...just hope that I have passed it this time. Could do with a bit of good fortune at the moment!!
MM
Flies for fun
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 789
Likes: 0
From: Wishing it was somewhere sunny!
Send Clowns ol chap, I have told you that SFT made a NIL profit last year and you say "SFT is still trading profitably" It is impossible to say this without bursting your bubble so here is the hard fact:- SFT IS NOT AND HAS NOT BEEN TRADING PROFITABLY AND THAT IS WHY IT IS THE MESS THAT IT IS! The banks do NOT pull the plug on profitable setups!
Have you heard of the mushroom system? Feed bul!!!! and keep you in the dark?
Anybody else who considers throwing more money into SFT should reconsider it! Personally, I would spend it in the USA at the present time BUT NOT WITH PAYMENT UPFRONT!! Everybody including myself learns the hard way that this is a bad way forward.
Have you heard of the mushroom system? Feed bul!!!! and keep you in the dark?
Anybody else who considers throwing more money into SFT should reconsider it! Personally, I would spend it in the USA at the present time BUT NOT WITH PAYMENT UPFRONT!! Everybody including myself learns the hard way that this is a bad way forward.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: Wirral penninsula
SEND CLOWNS.
Sorry to find that u found my post not to your liking,but then the truth is often hurtfull.I stand by my every word and i have never told a blatant lie,that i find very offensive.That said,in your reply u admitted that yes i was correct in my posting by saying the ground school alone was a shambles"YOUR WORDS WERE" YES WE DID HAVE SOME PROBLEMS"Well again i will state that they were arriving at ppsc whilst i was there in the droves.It would appear that most of the postings here seem to be having a pop at u,and you have been given some sound advice to keep your head down,you might want to give it some thought.
David Webb-we shall be watching the South coast with interest.
Sorry to find that u found my post not to your liking,but then the truth is often hurtfull.I stand by my every word and i have never told a blatant lie,that i find very offensive.That said,in your reply u admitted that yes i was correct in my posting by saying the ground school alone was a shambles"YOUR WORDS WERE" YES WE DID HAVE SOME PROBLEMS"Well again i will state that they were arriving at ppsc whilst i was there in the droves.It would appear that most of the postings here seem to be having a pop at u,and you have been given some sound advice to keep your head down,you might want to give it some thought.
David Webb-we shall be watching the South coast with interest.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: U.K
sorry to hear the news - and sorry for the guys at SFT - if its any help i just got finished off at Aeros in Gloucester - also did my BCPL there a while ago - done in two weeks mainly because there are only two students assigned to one instructor and there is always plane availability. Hope u guys all get sorted - good luck 
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 527
Likes: 72
From: Mycenae
Its true that the ex-Group Chairman of Cabair is in south america, taking part in a car rally of somesort in Brazil as part of a long holiday/retirement.
As for his shares - who knows, he isn't running the company day to day anymore, but Cabair haven't seen the last of him.
As for his shares - who knows, he isn't running the company day to day anymore, but Cabair haven't seen the last of him.