Quick rant....

[The500man]

a degree takes 4 years minimum

That's a sweeping statement isn't it? I know people that have spent only one year at university and come out with a degree.

in the UK you spend £9,000 a year on tuition, plus £6,000 for living

Not all degrees cost £9,000 a year yet surely? In the UK, does the government no longer pick up some or all of the tab for tuition based on your background? I never paid anything for tuition and neither did my sister, and she has a PhD now.

There's nothing to say a pilot has to train at an integrated school that charges £100k, so these comparisons to what a degree might cost you are pointless. I bet even the cheapest modular route would be more expensive than an average degree.

I have done plenty of research on various careers and none seem to require the level of investment for potentially such little return.

Well money isn't everything but perhaps wannabes are under the impression that they will be well paid in the future, they may be asking around and discovering some pilots are on five figure salaries. Maybe they don't realise that once those big earners retire, those salaries will never likely be seen in aviation again. I suspect many though will be happy earning £30k plus. They are not concerned with their potential earnings or thinking in any great detail about the future, they just wanna fly the heavy metal!

I forget what this thread was about now.

[smith]

That's a sweeping statement isn't it? I know people that have spent only one year at university and come out with a degree.

Tell me where you can get a bachelors degree in 1 year from a recognised University? Sure you can get a degree online by sending in 4 kellogs packet tops and a wad of cash to some southern bible school in the USA but a recognised University no way you can get your first degree in a year!!! Is that a sweeping statement or what?

Also, if you also include living costs and the type rating YOU ARE going to spend £100k.

[BigNumber]

Also factor in..

The lost earnings during any periods when Training Full Time.

The opportunity cost in the capital required to train.

A frozen ATPL is often WELL over £100K, and thats before funding a further period of PTF...

[5000]

Fair original post.

To Boeing Dreamer:
If I am frustrated because I don't respect my industry or my employer, what kind of a man am I to stay?
A. One who lacks self respect.

What kind of a man am I to stay and complain that the industry is causing my pain?
A. One who lacks self respect and cannot admit it.

If you wish to deflect this underlying truth and say silly stuff like "I have a family to feed so I have to stay!", then there's your payoff right there. So the deal is square. Any further complaint is unfounded.

[The500man]

Tell me where you can get a bachelors degree in 1 year from a recognised University?

There are a number of college courses that "upgrade" to a degree with one or two years further study. Like I said, I know it can be done. My point was that not all degrees are 4 years minimum. I don't know why you would think they were?

if you also include living costs and the type rating YOU ARE going to spend £100k

Including living costs and a type rating? If you are not training on an integrated course, meaning that you can work, pressumably you are paying for your living anyway? Now what type rating would you like to include? You could end up paying £100k, but even if you didn't it would still cost more than an average degree.

Why bother comparing it? Now there's a question...

[Poose]

Gaping hole in finances for modular

I have to agree with the general sentiment of the poster - there is a lot of negativity out there...

However, let me describe my circumstances. I was sponsored by the RAF via the RAF Flying Scholarship scheme back in the day (1998). I've self funded a degree in Mechanical Engineering via several years as an Officer in the Territorial Army. I have spent the last few years working in Design and Development/Flight Test on a large aircraft. While I was doing all of this I was hour building and doing my ATPLs...

I'm about to start the CPL...

I now find myself in the situation that I might not EVER be able to get a job due to my financial situation (I earn 33k and have virtually no 'non-flying debt, for the record. Do I sound well off?).
I do not have rich folks who could pay, or are willing to stand guarantor for me. I have paid for my training to date with small loans and my pay. I've just lent 20k unsecured for the CPL/IR. I am saddled with this debt for the next five years...

What do I do now? I am effectively "borrowed out" for the next five years. The 'entry level' turbo-prop (Think Eastern or Flybe.) jobs are asking for bonds and, or the pay is so low that I could not afford to move to the work, let alone maintain the repayments on the cost of my CPL/IR loan. Would they really give me a job on my doorstep if I outlined my financial situation? As opposed to the far flung base in the sticks that new guy usually have to start at...

Next point: Some of the jet jobs have dropped their starting salaries to either 70% or 81% contracts meaning shocking starting salaries (Jet2 & BMi Baby), whilst at the same time asking for Type Ratings to be paid.
So, in five years I could lend enough money to pay for a Type Rating... but wouldn't be able to afford to move to the work on the appalling starting salaries (20k and 28k using the aforementioned operators as an example).

Now, I don't expect a living but one can't help but be utterly deflated when wealthy nineteen year olds with nothing on their CV can trump my CV just because they're from a well off background.

Not trying to defend the miserable gits on here but maybe they've done their research, albeit they don't come across that well with their advice.

Just my situation.

[Whirlygig]

Except Jawbone of course, who may only drink with a meal and an accompanying adult

At 16, Jambone is allowed in a pub on his own but may not consume nor purchase alcohol.

[Laurence25]

But he is allowed to get p1ssed on chocolate liqueurs! That's a winner!

[smith]

500

We were talking specifically about medical/law degrees here, I don't think you could do them in a year. Also your "bachelor's degree in one year" requires about 3 or 4 years previous study to HNC or HND level or equivalent so to say that you could recieve a degree with just one year's study is talking brown!!!

[ct8282]

lol at Jambone. I'm thinking you'd be sick from the chocolate well and truly before you noticed the effects of the alcohol. Worth a shot though....

[The500man]

We were talking specifically about medical/law degrees here, I don't think you could do them in a year.

Okay.

Yes, but a degree takes 4 years minimum

I was confused because you hadn't specifically said which two specific degrees you were specifically talking about.

....don`t forget loss of earnings when doing a degree.

No please DO forget ALL about it so we can all go back to being positive!

We all know flying is ******* expensive, so why should we expect it to be as cheap (relatively) as a medical/ law degree? Or was it decided that they cost the same? No! Do not what ever you do answer that, there's already too much negativity on this forum!

[Whirlygig]

Pilot training is very expensive and in such a short amount of time as well.

Of course it is. Forget the merits or comparability of degrees etc, flight training is the only career I can think of (at the moment) that involves extensive training with some seriously expensive pieces of kit.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Quite a lot of scientists jobs actually - and I have known people who have self-funded their PhDs (to a fair extent I did). Although it's more common still for scientists to be paid whilst they train (I mean the real postgraduate and postdoctoral training, not the relatively basic batchelors degree.)

G

[Chael]

Spent some time last Sept working out how much University would cost me in total to do a degree and also how much my friends would end up paying for their degrees (all 4/5 year degrees).

Costs ranged from around £30k for the 4 year courses and those living at home to around £80k for a couple doing 5 year courses living out-of-home, not including living costs, just rent and fees.

a fATPL can be obtained slightly towards the lower end of this range, which to me makes it seem not much different than what people going to uni are doing. Naturally the big downside is the fact that there is no 'student loan' for flight training.

[The500man]

I fail to see why the government choose to so drastically under-regulate the aviation industry

erm??? Really?

With regards student loans you're looking at it wrong. Student loans are for higher learning, the standard of which is well above ATPL level study. The ATPL and CPL/IR are professional courses. You could compare it to bus driving, train driving, ferry piloting. Pilots don't like the comparison because they naturally like to think alot of themselves; the sky-gods that they are.

It would be nice if aviation employers would take the responsibilty of screening and training their own staff at their own expense, but ultimately they know they don't have to, so they don't.

I doubt anybody would drive a train or a bus if they had to pay £50k upfront.

[The500man]

Jambone you can't seriously think we have "drastic under-regulation" in the UK. The recent changes being made in the US do not prove that we do either. By the way, US airline pilots don't have to pass 14 ATPL exams. Are you going to tell me that the US is "drastically under-regulated" now?

The understanding and knowledge required for an ATPL is far more vast than any knowledge required to drive a bus or train and to compare them would be an injustice.

I did not say that it was as equally challenging to drive a train or bus as it is to fly commercially or to learn to fly comercially, I merely said they were comparable. They are comparable in that they all require professional training and they all involve people transport. The difference is pilots pay for their training because it's a popular career choice. There is no "injustice" in this comparison so please don't get your panties all twisted.

I also don't think you needed to quote my entire post in your post when they were next to each other.

EDIT:

I mean surely the government would rather see a pilot train compared to someone taking the Abuse Studies combined with popular music degree

LOL!

Although you've now quoted Jambone's whole post when your post was next to his!

[ct8282]

Errr, how do you quote people on this forum?

[KAG]

You guys are right to say a medical or law master degree is so different than a CPL/IR.

The CPL/IR: you are in a cokpit or not. That's a driver licence associated with a medical. The only goal is the cokpit, final point. Like the bus driver licence is to drive a bus. A CPL/IR doesn't even make you smarter.

A Law master degree however changes your brain and leads to many fields: Civil servant, Lawyer, manager in a company... hell if you don't find anything you can stay at home and set a website to give law advices. Hard to use your CPL/IR at home... We really cannot compare both training, a law degree is much more flexible. A CPL/IR looks much more like a lottery ticket than a proper education.

[The500man]

how do you quote people on this forum?

PPRuNe standard quotation procedure:

Stand up, run around your chair three times, sit down, raise keyboard above your head and back down again three times, copy the text you would like to quote (ctrl + c), paste text into your post where you want it (ctrl + v), highlight quoted text, place your non-mouse hand on your crotch, and click on the "Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text" button.

You only have to do this the first time though!

I just think it's pointless copying an entire post and quoting it right below the original.

Edit: I hope you weren't asking seriously, though you will be able to work it out from the standard procedure above!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Or click "reply" then when the web address appears in the top of your browser, change "noquote=1" to "noquote=0", and hit enter.

G