Flying for FREE!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying for FREE!
Guys n Gals,
To those out there that have finished their flying training; CPL, ME/IR and are broke and jobless still... Would you work for a charter company flying their multi engine aircraft for free with no future of being paid because you don't have sufficient hours for logging charter flight?
I've basically been offered this but am undecided to go get a job (non aviation) 5 days a week or go be a dogs body but get multi piston time for free albeit not huge amount of hours per month of which could be only available weekdays when I could be earning.
Curious to your thoughts please...
To those out there that have finished their flying training; CPL, ME/IR and are broke and jobless still... Would you work for a charter company flying their multi engine aircraft for free with no future of being paid because you don't have sufficient hours for logging charter flight?
I've basically been offered this but am undecided to go get a job (non aviation) 5 days a week or go be a dogs body but get multi piston time for free albeit not huge amount of hours per month of which could be only available weekdays when I could be earning.
Curious to your thoughts please...
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK, US, now more ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Age: 41
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would you be flying empty legs/positioning, since you're not legal to be PIC on single pilot twin charter?
Plus as you say, company's spare hand (aka
) on top for the pleasure. If it was non-commercial flying within club, sure no payment another story.
You'd be nuts to take it and kill chance for reasonable (and paid) FT job.
Plus as you say, company's spare hand (aka
) on top for the pleasure. If it was non-commercial flying within club, sure no payment another story.You'd be nuts to take it and kill chance for reasonable (and paid) FT job.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Colchester
Age: 49
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think there's any need for the slagging. With the economy the way it is, and from what I've seen on here, the limited job prospects he's obviously looking at it as an hours building scheme. Thing is though, On The Horizon, if you binned that idea and got a job you might find you'd be able to save enough money to build more hours than the opportunity you're currently being offered. And you'd still have your pride intact.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Above & Beyond
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not consider both? Yes flying for free is a piss take but look on the other side of the coin, you will be flying and you will gain experience and you never know something might open up from it I.e networking.
Get a paying job and at weekends work for these guys, I personally would of tried this option first before deciding to pick which job would be better.
Right now you have to be a hustler to get a job, play the game!
The song 'Everyday I'm hustling' - Rick Ross comes to mind
Get a paying job and at weekends work for these guys, I personally would of tried this option first before deciding to pick which job would be better.
Right now you have to be a hustler to get a job, play the game!
The song 'Everyday I'm hustling' - Rick Ross comes to mind
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: PlanetEarth
Age: 44
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not?
Considering the multi engine rental rate to keep current, I would say if it was not to much work, take advantage of the free hours, if you dont want them somebody else will take them, and get their log book filled up for free too. Depends of course of how much time it will take of your week.
Considering the multi engine rental rate to keep current, I would say if it was not to much work, take advantage of the free hours, if you dont want them somebody else will take them, and get their log book filled up for free too. Depends of course of how much time it will take of your week.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not? Because every pilot who works for free is worsening the job market fot everyone including themselves.
If you're qualified to fly the aircraft, then you should be paid. If you're not, then what sort of operation are they running?
Working for free (apart from busting minimum wage legislation) means you would have no employment contract, no employment rights, and would generally get treated like a doormat.
At what point would this charter company think, "Let's pay this guy a wage"? They won't .... they will continue to use you until you move on and then they will use someone else. The trouble is that people do not value what they get for free and you would not be a valued member of staff; you (along with everyone else who does the same thing) will be treated as expendable.
On the whole, you would lose the respect of other working pilots who are managing to earn a small wage. These are the networking contacts you need but you need them onside. By working for free, businesses will come to expect it and the more pilots who work for free will encourage other businesses to cut wages.
Cheers
Whirls
If you're qualified to fly the aircraft, then you should be paid. If you're not, then what sort of operation are they running?
Working for free (apart from busting minimum wage legislation) means you would have no employment contract, no employment rights, and would generally get treated like a doormat.
At what point would this charter company think, "Let's pay this guy a wage"? They won't .... they will continue to use you until you move on and then they will use someone else. The trouble is that people do not value what they get for free and you would not be a valued member of staff; you (along with everyone else who does the same thing) will be treated as expendable.
On the whole, you would lose the respect of other working pilots who are managing to earn a small wage. These are the networking contacts you need but you need them onside. By working for free, businesses will come to expect it and the more pilots who work for free will encourage other businesses to cut wages.
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Godzone
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree and disagree Whirls. I don't fly for free, and I'm a firm believer that if the CP can't afford (or just doesn't want) to pay their pilots, then what else are they skimping on.
History would suggest though that some of the best pilots out there have at least done some gratis flying during their training period
History would suggest though that some of the best pilots out there have at least done some gratis flying during their training period
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: HON121º/14 NM
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you decide to take up this job check very carefully that you are covered by the company's employees liability insurance. You don't want to be doing something for nothing only to get injured and end up financially stuffed. It might be worth getting abit of advice from BALPA or IPA which ever one you are a member of (you are a member of one or the other I hope).
This is really tough: I would ask that there is some quid pro quo. If the boss man isn't going to pay you I would try to encourage him to offer something else in lieu such as expenses or a promise of a minimum amount of flying, or a review of the salary status after a defined number of weeks. If he's not willing to match your commitment I would shop him for breaking minimum wage, and walk away.
This is really tough: I would ask that there is some quid pro quo. If the boss man isn't going to pay you I would try to encourage him to offer something else in lieu such as expenses or a promise of a minimum amount of flying, or a review of the salary status after a defined number of weeks. If he's not willing to match your commitment I would shop him for breaking minimum wage, and walk away.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Age: 49
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know if you could call it flying for free as such, if I understand the OP correctly , he/she is flying as an "extra" pilot in a single pilot twin, therefore is not stealing anyone's job as there is no job to steal.
If he/she is, however, being allowed to fly the dead legs and log valuable twin time, then in todays climate it is not a bad idea.
On top of that, the extra practice at radio work, flight planning and general commercial ops is invaluable, plus more importantly, they are in the right environment to meet people and network.
It would certainly give a more interesting and relevant answer to the "how have you been keeping current" question at an interview.
regards
D-G
If he/she is, however, being allowed to fly the dead legs and log valuable twin time, then in todays climate it is not a bad idea.
On top of that, the extra practice at radio work, flight planning and general commercial ops is invaluable, plus more importantly, they are in the right environment to meet people and network.
It would certainly give a more interesting and relevant answer to the "how have you been keeping current" question at an interview.
regards
D-G
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed with all on here.
I did this - hindsight is a great thing and now I can see valid reasons as to why I shouldn't have. Granted it was a few years ago, but it many respects it was a very bad decision and I was young and pretty dumb.
The salient point is that if the operator is asking / offering you "free" hours (i.e. not wanting to pay you a wage) then what else are they doing on the cheap? Just be very sure what you are getting in to. There are some great operators out there (although they would probably pay you) and there are unfortunately some that are rotten to the core.
Due to this awful recession, I do some part time flying when I can - very little pay but my expenses are covered at least. Maybe you could at least ask for that?
I did this - hindsight is a great thing and now I can see valid reasons as to why I shouldn't have. Granted it was a few years ago, but it many respects it was a very bad decision and I was young and pretty dumb.
The salient point is that if the operator is asking / offering you "free" hours (i.e. not wanting to pay you a wage) then what else are they doing on the cheap? Just be very sure what you are getting in to. There are some great operators out there (although they would probably pay you) and there are unfortunately some that are rotten to the core.
Due to this awful recession, I do some part time flying when I can - very little pay but my expenses are covered at least. Maybe you could at least ask for that?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hi all,
thanks for the replies. nice to see that there are people out there that do care about others especially through tough times like this.
the company will convert me on their twin meaning any positioning flights (very little really) and dead legs (when they come up) i can log p1 and keep current. they do operate another company where most flights will be logging p1 but i'd say approx 10hrs a month, maybe lucky if i get more than that.
i feel like im in a catch 22 situation because if i go work in their office weekdays (for free) learning the ropes, making the tea, a bit of ops, flight planning etc, all good stuff to learn...then i can't go and get a paid job because i might miss out on the chance of a p1 flight or even sitting and learning in the right-hand seat on a charter gaining experience (which has been checked and i'm allowed to do as have a fcl).
they appear to be under the impression if i didn't do it, someone else would come along and "work for free" (as if i don't matter) so it's either "work for free or we'll have tons of other people that will do it"... i have been offered expenses in the past but it never materialised.
i have to admit, the chance to be part of a small organisation is great but having forked out several 10's of thousands of pounds and having not worked now since, my savings will not last forever.
in some aspects, the thought of flying with them sounds better than airline sectors but then again...i can't last on nothing.
as for getting a certain amount of hours per month 'guaranteed', that won't happen as they can't say how many charters they'll get per week/month or how many times the twin will need to be positioned.
it's in some way nice to know from the replied that most of you wouldn't allow yourself to be used like this...
thanks for the replies. nice to see that there are people out there that do care about others especially through tough times like this.
the company will convert me on their twin meaning any positioning flights (very little really) and dead legs (when they come up) i can log p1 and keep current. they do operate another company where most flights will be logging p1 but i'd say approx 10hrs a month, maybe lucky if i get more than that.
i feel like im in a catch 22 situation because if i go work in their office weekdays (for free) learning the ropes, making the tea, a bit of ops, flight planning etc, all good stuff to learn...then i can't go and get a paid job because i might miss out on the chance of a p1 flight or even sitting and learning in the right-hand seat on a charter gaining experience (which has been checked and i'm allowed to do as have a fcl).
they appear to be under the impression if i didn't do it, someone else would come along and "work for free" (as if i don't matter) so it's either "work for free or we'll have tons of other people that will do it"... i have been offered expenses in the past but it never materialised.
i have to admit, the chance to be part of a small organisation is great but having forked out several 10's of thousands of pounds and having not worked now since, my savings will not last forever.
in some aspects, the thought of flying with them sounds better than airline sectors but then again...i can't last on nothing.
as for getting a certain amount of hours per month 'guaranteed', that won't happen as they can't say how many charters they'll get per week/month or how many times the twin will need to be positioned.
it's in some way nice to know from the replied that most of you wouldn't allow yourself to be used like this...
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i have been offered expenses in the past but it never materialised.
Cheers
Whirls
If you are being offered the chance to fly in the RHS on single pilot ops and get to fly the empty non commercial sectors, or positioning flights, (assuming they really are non commercial sectors) then go for it, but if you are expected to work in the office 5 days a week whilst waiting for a flight you should be paid for the work you do in the office.
If they will not pay you for office work they are taking the ****
Also be very careful that the legs you fly really are non revenue positioning flights.unless you are correctly opc, fire and smoke, first aid trained etc
If they will not pay you for office work they are taking the ****
Also be very careful that the legs you fly really are non revenue positioning flights.unless you are correctly opc, fire and smoke, first aid trained etc
Another few thoughts:
- If you are working for them, they are legally bound to pay national minimum wage at-least.
- If you aren't working for them, nobody: you or they, are protected if anything goes wrong.
I think you'd be better off haggling a badly paid fixed term employment contract, with a review to a decent wage, or a polite goodbye (but they got somebody to fly their aeroplanes cheaply, and you got the hours, experience and a reference) at the end of, say, 6 months.
G
- If you are working for them, they are legally bound to pay national minimum wage at-least.
- If you aren't working for them, nobody: you or they, are protected if anything goes wrong.
I think you'd be better off haggling a badly paid fixed term employment contract, with a review to a decent wage, or a polite goodbye (but they got somebody to fly their aeroplanes cheaply, and you got the hours, experience and a reference) at the end of, say, 6 months.
G
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genghis makes a couple of very good points. Before operating any aircraft you need to make sure you are adequately covered by insurance etc. You need to clarify exactly what your status is with this operator. If you are an employee of the company then im sure you wont have too many issues. If your not directly employed then what is your position....ie contractor...self employed?? How does that fit in terms of the AOC and the certificate of insurance as far as Pilots operating the aircraft? I have a similar situation when instructing at my local flying club. I am not employed directly by the training provider, but i am providing proffessional services(which im paid for) when carrying out any instruction. I am technically self employed/freelance in that respect but thankfuly I dont have to pay for my own liability insurance as the club aircraft are covered for use by non member instructor's and examiners.
Make sure you dot the I's and cross the T's, as you've worked hard for your licence and your ratings.....you dont want to end up in th poo!!
Make sure you dot the I's and cross the T's, as you've worked hard for your licence and your ratings.....you dont want to end up in th poo!!
I don't know if you could call it flying for free as such, if I understand the OP correctly , he/she is flying as an "extra" pilot in a single pilot twin, therefore is not stealing anyone's job as there is no job to steal.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
It's pretty hard to turn down "free" flying of any sort let alone multi time, when you're a 200 hour unemployed hour builder. And picking up empty sectors and positioning flights in an IFR twin is awesome experience. Even 50 or 100 hours of that stuff will really make your CV stand out at certain regionals who still value that kind of old-skool hour building.
However, small GA piston-twin charter operations the world over, are renowned for taking the piss out of their so called "employees" because they know fine well we're all desperate for the hours, we will turn a blind eye to a lot of stuff that maybe we shouldn't, and we will bail out at the drop of a hat / sniff of a real job and another muggins will come get the "free" flying.
You should really be 100% clear in your mind whether any laws are being broken, either employment laws or air-transport laws, if they are then it's probably not a smart move to get involved in it.
However, small GA piston-twin charter operations the world over, are renowned for taking the piss out of their so called "employees" because they know fine well we're all desperate for the hours, we will turn a blind eye to a lot of stuff that maybe we shouldn't, and we will bail out at the drop of a hat / sniff of a real job and another muggins will come get the "free" flying.
You should really be 100% clear in your mind whether any laws are being broken, either employment laws or air-transport laws, if they are then it's probably not a smart move to get involved in it.