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M1 Visa or no Visa and SEVIS approved schools in the USA

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M1 Visa or no Visa and SEVIS approved schools in the USA

Old 6th Jun 2012, 00:05
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: EGYD
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You could ask the embassy but they're not the ones who enforce regulations and any course of study is PROHIBITED explicitly in the B1/B2 laws nor have any jurisdiction when your actually here in the USA.

See previous posts.

Any school to take you would be stupid to train you with a B1/B2.
BigGrecian is offline  
Old 6th Jun 2012, 02:14
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Terra Firma
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Thank you both for your responses.
M1 it is. I'll steer clear of any further suggestions to train on a B1/B2.
razzy is offline  
Old 6th Jun 2012, 08:59
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
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The "B1/B2 laws" ? Consular officers having no jurisdiction ? Now, now...

When reading the relevant CFR paragraphs, you quickly end up with asking yourself "What is a course of study" - see my post of 6th May.

It is very debatable whether a "finish up" programme where you only need a couple of hours of aircraft/airspace familiarization + maybe 1 or 2 topics in the syllabus that need refreshing is a "course of study".

I've used my B1/B2 with full knowledge of both the consular officer in my country and the immigration officers at the port of entry that I was (going to) enter the US for business or pleasure and was going to receive some flight training, leading to an FAA certificate (I had announced that I was finishing up and going for the check ride).

By contrast, if you are having one week of flight training on an M1, and then visit your relatives for 3 weeks, you might have a problem, because the M1 is supposedly for a "full course of study", which you then are not attending.

What you guys fail to see is the purpose of it all. The immigration status M1 vs B1/B2 distinction is to avoid that foreigners enter the US and enroll in full blown courses (like ab initio to CPL/ME IR) while claiming to be a tourist.

The security threat in relation to flight training by foreigners (aliens) is monitored by the TSA, which is why for most flight training categories towards certain certificates, you need TSA approval, also for 1 or 2 week training stints.

Any school to take you would be stupid to train you with a B1/B2.
Depends on what you mean by "school". A part 61 unit with TSA approval could be precisely what rassy needs, especially if he's just looking for someone assisting him with his long cross country towards his Indian PPL.

And they would be happy with his business.

Last edited by proudprivate; 6th Jun 2012 at 09:00.
proudprivate is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2012, 16:54
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Just because it's worked for you previously doesn't mean it's legal.

I've seen a part 61 raided in Florida and all those on waivers and B1s were "offered" the ability to depart the USA within 24 hours or go through deportation proceedings - I'll give you once guess what they chose.

The law is extremely clear and they don't hesitate to enforce it.

(7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B1 or B2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay in B1 or B2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B1 or B2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study.
The term course of study has nothing to do with maintaining 18 hours of study etc etc - that is the requirements to fulfill the M1/F1 continued status.

By contrast, if you are having one week of flight training on an M1, and then visit your relatives for 3 weeks, you might have a problem, because the M1 is supposedly for a "full course of study", which you then are not attending.
This is well within the privileges of a student visa. You may enter upto 30 days prior to your report by date and if you complete your course of study you also have a 30 day grace period.

At the end of the day it's down to your discretion and I know which way I fall given the consequences I first hand witnessed.
BigGrecian is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2012, 15:56
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 372
A "course of study" is well defined in the attached letter that I provided the link to above: Here again ==> http://www.eandvh.com/engine/pubs/ge...spx?id=40&dl=1

quote:
The term "Course of study" implies a focused program of classes, such as a full-time course load leading to a degree, or in the case of a vocational student, some type of certification... Courses with more substance or that teach a potential vocation, such as Flight Training, would be considered part of a "course of study" and would thus require approval or a student status.

So go form your own opinion.
Gomrath is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2012, 20:22
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Belgium
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I've formed my opinion

Just because it's worked for you previously doesn't mean it's legal.
You are inferring that I hid something from either the consular officer or the immigration officer at the point of entry. I did not, and I have written evidence that I did not.

People who enter the US on a visa waiver and take flight training violate immigration laws, even if it is a couple of hours. People who enter the US on a B1/B2 and take flight training do not.

In the definition of course of study, the key element from Gomrath's reference is

a full-time course load [...] leading to a degree or some type of certification
which is why they clarify it with the 18 hour / week description, so I disagree with your BigGrecian's claim that

The term course of study has nothing to do with maintaining 18 hours of study etc etc
The guidance document that Gomrath quotes actually predates the TSA-approval process. A lot has happened since then...

So go form your own opinion
Here is mine :
- if you enter the US for an ab initio PPL training, with the intention of going all the way to the checkride, you are entering a "course of study", leading up to certification so you cannot do that on a B1/B2-visa. I'm sure that if you asked the Embassy, they would say no.

- if you enter the US for 10 hours of flight training, with the aim of getting your long cross country out of the way during the Indian rain season, you can do that on a B1/B2. I'm sure that, if you asked the Embassy, they would confirm this.

- as for things in between those, it clearly depends : Two weeks of study towards a PPL, without certification, can be done on a B1/B2. The same goes for 1 week finishing up and doing the PPL checkride. Or adding a multi-engine rating to your existing commercial certificate.

- clear no-no's would be : an EMB-195 type rating course; a complete instrument rating course;

I've seen a part 61 raided in Florida and all those on waivers and B1s were "offered" the ability to depart the USA within 24 hours or go through deportation proceedings - I'll give you once guess what they chose.
The only raids I know of were schools where B1 visa holders were CFIs making a few bob on the side. No surprise that US Immigration sent those guys/gals packing, and rightfully so ! That was in California, but I imagine it also has happened in Florida.

But for those B1s not on the work roster, unless they had booked a full time schedule for the next x weeks, clearly indicating "enrollment in a full course of study", US Immigration would face an uphill struggle with their deportation proceedings.
proudprivate is offline  
Old 13th Jun 2012, 03:05
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Based on the additional information given by you, ProudPrivate, I've written to the US Embassy, requesting them for confirmation of the visa I can legally travel on for finishing my PPL requirements (carried forward from India). The only trouble is that I wrote to them three weeks ago and they haven't said anything till now.

If they don't respond by the end of the week I think I'll move forward with M1 processing, which will take some time to get done.
razzy is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2012, 22:41
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 372
Originally Posted by proudpilot
which is why they clarify it with the 18 hour / week description, so I disagree with your BigGrecian's claim that
What you may have omitted was the comment"

quote:
"..Courses with more substance or that teach a potential vocation, such as flight training, would be considered part of a "course of study" and thus would require approval of a student status. ..."

So in that instance 18 hours is irrelevant.
Gomrath is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2012, 15:02
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: london
Age: 46
Posts: 2
Angel m1 visa ppl states - required or not .... i ididnt bother .....

reading this thread yonks back , i was concerned about going to the states to train for a ppl ....

i had got my tsa clearance ,, and the school ( actually its more like a club) which trained me was ready to teach me...


some weeks before flying out , by chance i came across this thread - "m1 visa required" ,,,,

the school which i got tsa clearance is not on servis or sevis - more importantly theyd never even heard of sevis/ servis - and definatley could nt issue me the i 20 form ....

feeling that id just chucked the best part of 250-300 down the drain on a useless tsa clearance - i bought a plane ticket and went away ......

going wvs all the way !


2 and half months later - ive got my ppl ,,,




i did worry at first ,but as the hrs built up , i soon stopped ,,,

if i could have got an m1 visa - i would have done ,,,- but since the school was in the strange position of being on the tsa books ( registered provider) , but yet unable to do m1 visas - i had no choice ....plus ,, i really liked the look of the school (and the hrs were cheap)


interested to know of others with same experience....
pj99 is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2012, 19:46
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 16
What about this?

How would you go about getting the M1 visa if you were either out there on a visa waiver or working visa? I plan on being in Florida for the winter while i am there I am going to get my PPL. I dont know yet if I'm going to go over on a visa waiver or if im going to go over for a year or two and work(non-avi related)

What do ye suggest??
GoAroundAgain1 is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2012, 00:09
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: london
Age: 46
Posts: 2
cant help u mate - the nearest i got to an m1 was a call to the embassy - i believe that strictly speaking if you are going to the states on a vwp - you havent even got a visa in the first place -certainly not a visa to change anything into - in this case an m1...
perhaps if you had a b1 visa (which i think is still a tourist visa of sorts ) you could change it to something whilst you are out there - but since vwp is nt actually a visa (hence the "waiver" bit) youve got nothing to change it to...

to be honest it does all seem a waste of time ... tsa checks is one thing ,,, checking if youre dodgy or not ... well n good - but why the hassle and expensive of replicating this check again for a pox*y m1?- especially if your from ,,, dare i say ,,, a so called ally ??

i
pj99 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2012, 13:00
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Holland
Posts: 6
I-20 cancellation on M1 visa for flight training

Hi Guys,

OK here we go. I am new on this forum.
We have an issue with flight schools in the USA regarding I-20/M1 visa. Two flight schools, two opinions/interpretations.
I am inbetween them and need a verifyable document/reference about the official view of the US authorities.
I support a foreign student for his flight training and recently we changed to an other flight school.
The new school can not issue an I20, the old school will cancel the I20 that they supplied us with during our visa request about half year ago. We got an M1 visa. TSA approval is OK. Visa status is at doubt.
New school says; I20 not required, continue training with us.
Old school says; I20 cancelled, so leave the country within 15 days.
I need HELP SOON to figure this out.
1) Does the cancellation of the I-20 has yes/no consequences for the student?
2) Can the student stay at the new school, with a cancelled I-20, but with his present valid and correct visa?
3) Does the student risk deportation if we continue at the new school?

4) Is he in any way in a illegal status right now or if he continues to stay in the USA with a cancelled I-20?

Thanks.
OldCrow01 is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2012, 10:52
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,462
I don't drop in here often, but I went through this in 2006 for my FAA IR (there are some TSA/Visa notes in that article; not necessarily up to date) and it's amazing that the same arguments go round and round 6 years later.

Do be careful with getting the I-20 and then changing schools.

When I started on the FAA IR in 2005 (the FAA PPL and CPL I did in the UK, at now defunct outfits) I was going to go to a US Part 141 school called CRM, who used a UK instructor as their "agent" here. They refused to communicate with me directly (as I found out too late). I went through the Visa process with them and they sent the I-20 to the instructor's UK address. No problem, but he was abroad for a while so the I-20 got lost.

I then cut my losses and did another I-20 with the school I eventually used (Chandler Air Service at KCHD). They were great and I completed the IR there no problem.

2 years later I flew to the USA for a 2-day private visit. The Immigration official found on his computa' the original CRM Visa, with a note (from CRM apparently) that I started training but did not complete. His little brain went Click Click Click (his last job was MacDonalds but this time he had a big gun) and he thought "this man trained to fly and not land". I got taken away and got a disgusting interrogation, in a room full of Africans who looked like they stowed inside some 747 landing gear, who were periodically yelled at by the guards, etc. I tried to talk to the 2 staff members present who were going through some paperwork but they were exMcD too (thick as a plank). 3 hours later I got out of there, accompanied by a Customs guard who did have a brain. I explained to him (as I tried with the others) that it would be trivial for them to check faa.gov and see that I had the IR, completed the training, etc. He may have been ex-McD too but hey he knew what "internet" was and he said they have no access to the internet

Luckily my connecting flight was 4 hours later so I didn't miss it.

After my return to the UK I tried to communicate with CRM to get this sorted. I was told by TSA (?) that only CRM can remove that "training incomplete" comment, but they refused to co-operate. TSA and Immigration refused to help.

Now I have a new passport without the M1 Visa stuck in it, so maybe I might risk entering the USA again

Unlike many Europeans, I am not at all anti-American (I do business with them all the time) but they do need a better system... and you need to be very careful changing schools if you have already got the M1 in the passport.
peterh337 is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2012, 21:39
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Los Angeles
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1) Does the cancellation of the I-20 has yes/no consequences for the student?
2) Can the student stay at the new school, with a cancelled I-20, but with his present valid and correct visa?
3) Does the student risk deportation if we continue at the new school?

4) Is he in any way in a illegal status right now or if he continues to stay in the USA with a cancelled I-20?
(1) Yes - once the Visa is cancelled - you are out of status and have to leave.
However, it is unusual for a Flight School to simply 'cancel' a visa if you are in good standing with that Flight School. If however, they felt you were not maintaining the required standard - or if you missed lessons etc - then they are within their right to terminate your visa.
(2) No - once your I-20 and therefore the visas in passport with the original School is canceled then you are out of status and must leave the US.
(3) Yes - most certainly. No visa then you are considered out of status and can be removed from the US.
(4) No - you need to leave the US and commence the process again to apply for a new visa and a fresh TSA submission.
Gomrath is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2012, 10:40
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Holland
Posts: 6
Thanks guy for the messages.
So we are in big
Two more things keep me now busy:
5) We are inbetween two camps now. Can you supply us with documents / references that show the official standpoint of the lawmaker?
6) Can the old school undo the cancellation of the I-20? Or do we have to go back to the home country and start the whole I-20 / visa process all over again?
I have made the same questions to the AFSP and DHS.
No answer yet.
OldCrow01 is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2012, 15:00
  #136 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 2,422
I support a foreign student for his flight training and recently we changed to an other flight school.
The new school can not issue an I20, the old school will cancel the I20 that they supplied us with during our visa request about half year ago. We got an M1 visa. TSA approval is OK. Visa status is at doubt.
New school says; I20 not required, continue training with us.
Old school says; I20 cancelled, so leave the country within 15 days
What does the "support" portion mean?
If the new school cannot issue an I-20 you cannot train there since you cannot get a visa without an I-20.
If your "student" has been in the country for more then 6 months, with or without an I-20 there can be no change as this is only allowed within 6 months of entry.

Hans, understand two things:
The school is held responsible for the person holding the visa.
At any time the school can get a call from DHS or TSA asking about the whereabouts of a certain student. The school has to be able to say " student A is flying with Instructor B and they are expected back in two hours" or " student A is at home studying for the PPL written test and he is scheduled again tomorrow at 8"
A school can lose their I-20 issuing authority if they do not keep a tight reign on this.
So if a student fails to show and or intends to do training at a school which is not authorized to do so they HAVE to cancel the I-20.

A M-1 visa is nothing but a vocational study visa, it can apply to lots of different courses of study and is NOT exclusively an Aviation training visa.

Form I-20 is a United States Department of Homeland Security, specifically ICE and SEVP, document issued by colleges, universities, and vocational schools that provides supporting information the issuance of a student visa or change of status (F, J and M non-immigrant statuses). Since the introduction of the Student and Exchange Visitor Information System (SEVIS) of the Student and Exchange Visitor Program, the form also includes the student tracking number (SEVIS number) for the student and program.
So the Visa MUST be accompagnied by an I-20 in order to be valid.
Example:
M-1 visa in the passport is valid for a year. If the training course is three months it will state this on the I-20.
When the I-20 expires the visa is no longer valid regardless of the expiration date of the visa.
The same visa could be used again with a different I-20, even from another school if you are still within your first 6 months.

You guys are trying to get into another school that has NO I-20 authority with a cancelled I-20 from a previous school.
Not going to work.
Let us know if we can help.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2012, 18:18
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Holland
Posts: 6
Thanks agian for the comments, B2N2,

"Support", I mean, I pay for the whole show.
Yep, new school says: can not issue I-20, and is no problem.
Just talked to USCIS and had a reply from DHS / AFS Help.
In short: with a cancelled I-20: LEAVE THE COUNTRY, period.

The new school is wrong.
Now what to do is the next thing;
Can you undo the cancellation of the I-20 by the old school?
Do we need to leave the conutry and start all over again with I-20, etc, etc?
Can we still transfer the cancelled I-20 to a SEVIS approved school (SEVIS approved is essential for any school, I just learned)?


We did not want this situation. He is in the US in order to be the best pilot he can be. He is very happy at the new school, but as it looks now, ned to leave because of the I-20/visa thing.

The situation keeps us busy very much.
OldCrow01 is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2012, 13:29
  #138 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
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Location: FL, USA
Posts: 2,422
Old Crow, I will send you a PM in order not too clog up this thread.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2012, 20:43
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: sub sahara
Posts: 34
Question USCIS DILEMMA

Hello gentlemen i need to know ASAP from anyone but particulaly from B2N2 if there has been any changes in visa requirements for TSA CAT 4 flight training status for aliens . In the recent past i have been admitted into the USA under B1/B2 visa for recurrent training but am now uncertain and unable to communicate with the relevant authorities to clarify. Please i need feedback from the Prune community. Cheers
nch334 is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2012, 15:40
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 372
if there has been any changes in visa requirements for TSA CAT 4 flight training status for aliens
No known change.
However only the US authorities can provide a definitive response.
Gomrath is offline  

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