Integrated Courses, You Poor Humans!
Join Date: Aug 2005
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There are two options in my opinion, one of them is impossible, the other one is reachable.
The impossible one is that wannabes should stop paying for training, with time... flight schools start losing business, losing money etc... moreover, airlines will have less and less pilots to choose from, so they are forced to sponsor pilots... this would take a lot of years now and would be the ideal scenario!!
The other one is, if you want to become a pilot, you have to get a degree and get a well-paid job, then if you have the money, do it... but at least you are not relying on flying to live at times when your financial status is not at its best.
The impossible one is that wannabes should stop paying for training, with time... flight schools start losing business, losing money etc... moreover, airlines will have less and less pilots to choose from, so they are forced to sponsor pilots... this would take a lot of years now and would be the ideal scenario!!
The other one is, if you want to become a pilot, you have to get a degree and get a well-paid job, then if you have the money, do it... but at least you are not relying on flying to live at times when your financial status is not at its best.
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Exams are valid for 36 months from last pass, once IR course completed and passed they are valid for another period of time. Lasors contains this information etc, I think from memory as I dont have this infront of me, the ATPL exams are then valid for a further 7 years after passing IR.
Not an issue for me personally, but maybe for others.
Sometimes to wait 3 - 6 months depending on your situation makes sense. This is what I am doing purely to avoid debt being modular at the very end with a reasonable assumption on the economic climate of no job if I were finishing a IR in the next 12 weeks before christmas.
Not an issue for me personally, but maybe for others.
Sometimes to wait 3 - 6 months depending on your situation makes sense. This is what I am doing purely to avoid debt being modular at the very end with a reasonable assumption on the economic climate of no job if I were finishing a IR in the next 12 weeks before christmas.
Last edited by scallaghan; 14th Sep 2008 at 02:55.
Whilst it's not desirable to let anything lapse you can do a ATPL brush up and re-sit the exams for <£2000. Several IR revalidation and refresher training plus getting up to SimCheck readiness is considerably more expensive.
What I wish to emphasise to Wannabes is that its not the fact that there won't eventually b job opportunities - there will. Its the fact that the gap between end of training and first opportunity can be a career killer.
Seen it many times.
WWW
What I wish to emphasise to Wannabes is that its not the fact that there won't eventually b job opportunities - there will. Its the fact that the gap between end of training and first opportunity can be a career killer.
Seen it many times.
WWW
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There is a lot of focus here about airline recruitment, if people can cast their mind back to Pre-JAR it was virtually unheard of to get a job in an airliner without 1000hrs and even then a Jetstream!.
People instructed, Did banner towing, flew Parachute aircraft or glider towed, people "cut their teeth" (Now theres a concept.....) on 3 and 400 series cessnas & chieftains, getting to fly a king air as pilots assistant was a HUGE deal, wannabees spent 12 months looking longingly through the cockpit window of a citation in the Hangar.
Eventually when you had 700 hours you might get line trained to fly AOC work in a light twin, busy little sectors working Mil ATC units, off airways or just underneath them to avoid Eurocontrol, High workload flying....
People who will entertain this kind of work will still find this kind of work if you are prepared to serve some sort of apprenticeship. If you aspire for the big silver bird and lament at how well you hit the LNAV & VNAV button in the Oxford pseudo sim then join the ever increasing queue.
This is not a call to training.....put perhaps those who are qualifying now for whom things didnt seem so bad 15 months ago should lower their aspirations of a job that up until JAR never existed anyway (Unless you were the rugby club captain and your dad was a senior captain at BA)
If you are now thinking "I have a loan to service at £4figures a month" cant possibly think about getting a lesser paid job, then congratulations you have just priced yourself out of the existing job market.
By going back a step you will be better prepared for when the dream job comes, be 1000 hours nearer a command and over a 30 year career it will probably lose or cost you nothing in terms of total salary.
If you want to remain in aviation and are just qualifying then dont consider yourself a poor human, load cargo planes if necessary just get any foot in the door.......any door and good luck.
People instructed, Did banner towing, flew Parachute aircraft or glider towed, people "cut their teeth" (Now theres a concept.....) on 3 and 400 series cessnas & chieftains, getting to fly a king air as pilots assistant was a HUGE deal, wannabees spent 12 months looking longingly through the cockpit window of a citation in the Hangar.
Eventually when you had 700 hours you might get line trained to fly AOC work in a light twin, busy little sectors working Mil ATC units, off airways or just underneath them to avoid Eurocontrol, High workload flying....
People who will entertain this kind of work will still find this kind of work if you are prepared to serve some sort of apprenticeship. If you aspire for the big silver bird and lament at how well you hit the LNAV & VNAV button in the Oxford pseudo sim then join the ever increasing queue.
This is not a call to training.....put perhaps those who are qualifying now for whom things didnt seem so bad 15 months ago should lower their aspirations of a job that up until JAR never existed anyway (Unless you were the rugby club captain and your dad was a senior captain at BA)
If you are now thinking "I have a loan to service at £4figures a month" cant possibly think about getting a lesser paid job, then congratulations you have just priced yourself out of the existing job market.
By going back a step you will be better prepared for when the dream job comes, be 1000 hours nearer a command and over a 30 year career it will probably lose or cost you nothing in terms of total salary.
If you want to remain in aviation and are just qualifying then dont consider yourself a poor human, load cargo planes if necessary just get any foot in the door.......any door and good luck.
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If you are now thinking "I have a loan to service at £4figures a month" cant possibly think about getting a lesser paid job, then congratulations you have just priced yourself out of the existing job market.
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People who will entertain this kind of work will still find this kind of work if you are prepared to serve some sort of apprenticeship.
Thanks G-Spot
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Time for a reality check
The person that started this thread clearly has a chip on their shoulder about integrated students.
The reality of the current situation is that EVERYONE IN TRAINING now is going to face a very harsh future. I think the only people who are safe are the modular students in groundschool training, because its the cheapest point to bail out of. Anyone who has started any form of flying is going to be burning cash for years to keep whatever rating or point in training current.
I feel VERY SORRY for all of you who rececntly finished courses. When you set out no one saw this disaster coming. Flight training inherintly carries risk. Getting a job is half luck as it is hard work. If you finish training when there are no jobs you have no chance.
However, for those of you out there starting self funded training courses in the current climate, I have absolutely no sympathy for you. You know there wont many jobs in a year or so, yet many seem to continue signing away parents houses etc. Even those of you who are mature students, having saved up for years, or changed career, still happy to burn vast sums of cash.
Im not saying there wont be any jobs. There will be a few airline positions around. Most likely these will be going to experienced pilots NOT low hour grads.
Out of all the fATPL holders last year I would estimate 50% were getting airline employment. Maybe 25% instructing/air taxi/corporate etc And 25% no jobs in flying.
At the moment, and for the next few years we are talking about maybe 5% at best of fATPL holders getting airline employment. Thats 1 in 20. Now, you need to ask youself what makes you that 1:20 statistic - because 95% of you wont be getting a RHS first officer position.
There are fellow students on here giving the same advice, however they dont want to see you start training because it introduces more competition for them for jobs. FTOs just want your money. They can quite happily say 'its business as usual', 'when you finish training jobs will pick up'. They want you training - they want to make money. I graduated years ago, I have an airline job. It doesnt affect me if you start training or not.
One last time - I plead with you: if all you want to do is go into airline employment after training do something more productive over the next few years. The numbers are not on your side. If you have money to burn go back to education/uni. Get a proper job. Whatever you do, dont waste money on training - it will get ugly and very painful for you.
DONT SAY I DIDNT WARN YOU!
The reality of the current situation is that EVERYONE IN TRAINING now is going to face a very harsh future. I think the only people who are safe are the modular students in groundschool training, because its the cheapest point to bail out of. Anyone who has started any form of flying is going to be burning cash for years to keep whatever rating or point in training current.
I feel VERY SORRY for all of you who rececntly finished courses. When you set out no one saw this disaster coming. Flight training inherintly carries risk. Getting a job is half luck as it is hard work. If you finish training when there are no jobs you have no chance.
However, for those of you out there starting self funded training courses in the current climate, I have absolutely no sympathy for you. You know there wont many jobs in a year or so, yet many seem to continue signing away parents houses etc. Even those of you who are mature students, having saved up for years, or changed career, still happy to burn vast sums of cash.
Im not saying there wont be any jobs. There will be a few airline positions around. Most likely these will be going to experienced pilots NOT low hour grads.
Out of all the fATPL holders last year I would estimate 50% were getting airline employment. Maybe 25% instructing/air taxi/corporate etc And 25% no jobs in flying.
At the moment, and for the next few years we are talking about maybe 5% at best of fATPL holders getting airline employment. Thats 1 in 20. Now, you need to ask youself what makes you that 1:20 statistic - because 95% of you wont be getting a RHS first officer position.
There are fellow students on here giving the same advice, however they dont want to see you start training because it introduces more competition for them for jobs. FTOs just want your money. They can quite happily say 'its business as usual', 'when you finish training jobs will pick up'. They want you training - they want to make money. I graduated years ago, I have an airline job. It doesnt affect me if you start training or not.
One last time - I plead with you: if all you want to do is go into airline employment after training do something more productive over the next few years. The numbers are not on your side. If you have money to burn go back to education/uni. Get a proper job. Whatever you do, dont waste money on training - it will get ugly and very painful for you.
DONT SAY I DIDNT WARN YOU!
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Surely anyone who would borrow £50-100,000 in the current financial climate to do an integrated course is showing a massive lack of judgement and taking a huge gamble.
Is that the qualities a future employer is looking for in a pilot???
Is that the qualities a future employer is looking for in a pilot???
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The person that started this thread clearly has a chip on their shoulder about integrated students.
G-XO
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What on earth has it got to do with you?
I have no problem with integrated students or schools. Just find the students foolish and selfish. Anyways, free world do what the
you want.G-XO
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I have no problem with integrated students or schools. Just find the students foolish and selfish.
Last edited by hollingworthp; 8th Oct 2008 at 16:24. Reason: spelling?
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If any Integrated students who have the available funding and resign from their course after reading this page, are misguided.
The time from selection through to completion can take from 18 months to 2 years before licence issue, and by this time the market will have changed again.
Probably for the better.
Those who are spreading this alarm and despondency should take stock that currently the market is very poor for employment of low hours pilots but that there are positions out there.
So its those coming out in the next few months to a year who will find it hard to get employment.
Those who are about to start their course will find a better climate for jobs when they finish.
Those who think otherwise and post here really do not have any idea about the future and are looking to the short term only.
Recently I have spoken with several potential integrated students, who are as positive about the upturn as I am, and who are willing to obtain their funding and training with a view to obtaining work in 2010 and beyond.
Training schools are actively seeking funding for their potential students, whilst not impossible to obtain, the security requirements are far more stringent, as are the requirements for a backup plan.
Go for your dream guys / girls on whatever route Integrated or Modular.
The time from selection through to completion can take from 18 months to 2 years before licence issue, and by this time the market will have changed again.
Probably for the better.
Those who are spreading this alarm and despondency should take stock that currently the market is very poor for employment of low hours pilots but that there are positions out there.
So its those coming out in the next few months to a year who will find it hard to get employment.
Those who are about to start their course will find a better climate for jobs when they finish.
Those who think otherwise and post here really do not have any idea about the future and are looking to the short term only.
Recently I have spoken with several potential integrated students, who are as positive about the upturn as I am, and who are willing to obtain their funding and training with a view to obtaining work in 2010 and beyond.
Training schools are actively seeking funding for their potential students, whilst not impossible to obtain, the security requirements are far more stringent, as are the requirements for a backup plan.
Go for your dream guys / girls on whatever route Integrated or Modular.
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I apologise for reposting this thread, but I am on a tirade.......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence, get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:
1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...
2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR
3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.
4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly, you will become un-current very quickly and secondly, you learnt how to fly so FLY.
5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or you will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook (and they are family members
6)Listen to WWW and redsnail
7)Don't give large deposits and never ever ever ever pay for the whole course upfront....puleeeeeeeeez
Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money(if any) to pay for the flight training. Also the military is not training that many either.
2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.
That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described, so I KNOW it works....
Thank you and good night!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence, get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:
1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...
2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR
3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.
4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly, you will become un-current very quickly and secondly, you learnt how to fly so FLY.
5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or you will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook (and they are family members
6)Listen to WWW and redsnail
7)Don't give large deposits and never ever ever ever pay for the whole course upfront....puleeeeeeeeez
Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money(if any) to pay for the flight training. Also the military is not training that many either.
2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.
That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described, so I KNOW it works....
Thank you and good night!!
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Telling everyone to become flight instructors is bad advice.
Sure, for some its a great opportunity.
Not everyone will make a good instructor, and there wont be enough instructing jobs to go round the 1000s of fATPLs.
DayDreamer - I have given some sound advice. Ignore it at your peril. Unlike you, I am on the inside of the industry and can clearly see the storm thats headed towards us.
Sure, for some its a great opportunity.
Not everyone will make a good instructor, and there wont be enough instructing jobs to go round the 1000s of fATPLs.
DayDreamer - I have given some sound advice. Ignore it at your peril. Unlike you, I am on the inside of the industry and can clearly see the storm thats headed towards us.
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Not at all, I can afford the whole integrated course aswell as a type rating in CASH
so you have over 100k in cash at 23 have you ????
have you been robbing security vans
so you have over 100k in cash at 23 have you ????
have you been robbing security vans
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Inside of the industry !!!
Well how do you know that I am on the outside.
Or do you think that only you are in the know.
Maybe your ego does not allow for others to have more informed knowledge.
If you have concrete information share it or stop wasting bandwidth.
You can look on the bleak side if you like but the winds of change are blowing and like any hurricane will blow themselves out in time.
Yes things will get worse before it gets better, but better is around the corner and will arrive be sure of that.
There are too many doom and gloom merchants on here, who influence wannabees by their uninformed comment
Well how do you know that I am on the outside.
Or do you think that only you are in the know.
Maybe your ego does not allow for others to have more informed knowledge.
If you have concrete information share it or stop wasting bandwidth.
You can look on the bleak side if you like but the winds of change are blowing and like any hurricane will blow themselves out in time.
Yes things will get worse before it gets better, but better is around the corner and will arrive be sure of that.
There are too many doom and gloom merchants on here, who influence wannabees by their uninformed comment
