Integrated Courses, You Poor Humans!
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As I believe my Good friend, HollingworthP alluded to earlier, Schadenfreude is not the most pleasant of human characteristics and there seems to be an unhealthy amount of it on this thread.
Spicejetter, I don't mean to be overly harsh, but you are one of the worst culprits. You really have bought into this theory that all integrated students are 18, paid for by mummy and daddy and ignorant beyond all compare. Further, you really seem to believe that at 28 you are the cats whiskers and know everything, frequently referring to "the kids" that do integrated. The reality, of those that I have met during my training is infinitely different, with the exception (i.e. the one thing you probably do have right) that a fair number have been fortunate that their families have been able to help financially - but VERY far from all of them.
Almost without exception, the guys and girls I know who are integrated, are genuine, intelligent and friendly people. I have never heard ANY of them wish modular students anything but goodwill, yet you seem to have bought into this theory that we all look down our noses at everyone else. That all integrated students think it's the only way to get in to an airline. Well the truth is so far removed. In my experience people choose integated because they believe it will give them a better chance...something we all want - the best chance of getting the job we all want.
Only a TINY percentage think the way you think we do. The truth is I see far more vitriol and unpleasantness from Mod students talking of integrated than I ever have vice versa. Your posts show you in a particularly unpleasant - and ill advised - light.
I wish you and EVERY student in this climate well, but if for no other reason could you at least TRY and show some compassion for the terrible situation that so many both training and experienced find themselves in for human reasons.
Spicejetter, I don't mean to be overly harsh, but you are one of the worst culprits. You really have bought into this theory that all integrated students are 18, paid for by mummy and daddy and ignorant beyond all compare. Further, you really seem to believe that at 28 you are the cats whiskers and know everything, frequently referring to "the kids" that do integrated. The reality, of those that I have met during my training is infinitely different, with the exception (i.e. the one thing you probably do have right) that a fair number have been fortunate that their families have been able to help financially - but VERY far from all of them.
Almost without exception, the guys and girls I know who are integrated, are genuine, intelligent and friendly people. I have never heard ANY of them wish modular students anything but goodwill, yet you seem to have bought into this theory that we all look down our noses at everyone else. That all integrated students think it's the only way to get in to an airline. Well the truth is so far removed. In my experience people choose integated because they believe it will give them a better chance...something we all want - the best chance of getting the job we all want.
Only a TINY percentage think the way you think we do. The truth is I see far more vitriol and unpleasantness from Mod students talking of integrated than I ever have vice versa. Your posts show you in a particularly unpleasant - and ill advised - light.
I wish you and EVERY student in this climate well, but if for no other reason could you at least TRY and show some compassion for the terrible situation that so many both training and experienced find themselves in for human reasons.
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Phychological nonsense and charachter assasinations aside 
, I passed my IR a few months before 9/11 and it was just a minor blip for recruitment compared to what is happening now. If you think diggafile that you can compare what happened then to what is happening now you are very confused, it's like comparing stubbing your toe with loosing a leg 
btw, there is no difference between modular and integrated, I trainned at a school which took both, intergrated mixed with modular doing the CPL and IR and no one really knew who was who, it certainly wasn't discussed, things may have changed since, if they have then trainning schools need to take a good look at themselves.
I'm not sure i'd want to associate myself with anyone who viewed either type of student differently and if I was involved with recruitment in an airline I certainly wouldn't want to employ someone like that. They're either going to have a chip on their shoulder or a superiority complex, both particularly unpleasant traits.
, I passed my IR a few months before 9/11 and it was just a minor blip for recruitment compared to what is happening now. If you think diggafile that you can compare what happened then to what is happening now you are very confused, it's like comparing stubbing your toe with loosing a leg btw, there is no difference between modular and integrated, I trainned at a school which took both, intergrated mixed with modular doing the CPL and IR and no one really knew who was who, it certainly wasn't discussed, things may have changed since, if they have then trainning schools need to take a good look at themselves.
I'm not sure i'd want to associate myself with anyone who viewed either type of student differently and if I was involved with recruitment in an airline I certainly wouldn't want to employ someone like that. They're either going to have a chip on their shoulder or a superiority complex, both particularly unpleasant traits.
Last edited by ChrisLKKB; 13th Sep 2008 at 11:00.
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ChrisLKKB,
I assume that was aimed at me...
I have no intention of assasinating anyone or anything....I just get very very tired of this continual assumption that all integrated students are backed by uber rich parents and look down their noses at anyone who didn't do integrated. Which is, in my opinion, every bit as inaccurate as the tiny percentage who really think that modular is inferior....
Your last two paragraphs are absolutely spot on....judge someone on the content of their personality, don't pre-judge them based on their method of training!....both training methods will turn out a mixture of great, good, average and decidedly poor pilots....
(and By Psychological nonsense I assume you mean the Schadenfreude reference....which I meant in it's true context - taking unexpected pleasure from someone elses pain, not the often referred to pycho context...)
Phychological nonsense and charachter assasinations aside
I have no intention of assasinating anyone or anything....I just get very very tired of this continual assumption that all integrated students are backed by uber rich parents and look down their noses at anyone who didn't do integrated. Which is, in my opinion, every bit as inaccurate as the tiny percentage who really think that modular is inferior....
Your last two paragraphs are absolutely spot on....judge someone on the content of their personality, don't pre-judge them based on their method of training!....both training methods will turn out a mixture of great, good, average and decidedly poor pilots....
(and By Psychological nonsense I assume you mean the Schadenfreude reference....which I meant in it's true context - taking unexpected pleasure from someone elses pain, not the often referred to pycho context...)
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Don't take it too seriously
btw mods, if you are going to delete sections of people posts, try and make it look like they haven't just started a sentance and then got bored.
bbtw it's no secret that the guy who ran SFT is running another flight school not too far away, I don't see the problem, no accusations are being made.
btw mods, if you are going to delete sections of people posts, try and make it look like they haven't just started a sentance and then got bored.
bbtw it's no secret that the guy who ran SFT is running another flight school not too far away, I don't see the problem, no accusations are being made.
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G CEXO, There are 2 paths to choose. One is to take a loan and see what the outcome will be after completing the course. The other is totally opposite not to take the loan and always wondering what will happen. What will you choose G CEXO?
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Don't forget the price of a type. A massive percentage of OAA grads have gone onto Ryanair and had to stump up another 25 to 30k on top of the integrated course. 100k GBP of debt!
For almost the same price as an integrated course, you could go modular, buy an FI rating and a 320/737 rating. Surely that makes much more sense?
70k (plus interest) is a massive gamble kwokwinguk.
For almost the same price as an integrated course, you could go modular, buy an FI rating and a 320/737 rating. Surely that makes much more sense?
70k (plus interest) is a massive gamble kwokwinguk.
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G CEXO, There are 2 paths to choose. One is to take a loan and see what the outcome will be after completing the course. The other is totally opposite not to take the loan and always wondering what will happen. What will you choose G CEXO?
Don't forget the price of a type. A massive percentage of OAA grads have gone onto Ryanair and had to stump up another 25 to 30k on top of the integrated course. 100k GBP of debt!
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A massive percentage of OAA grads have gone onto Ryanair and had to stump up another 25 to 30k on top of the integrated course
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I think that levelling a thread like this at integrated students is not the most sensible of things to do. I'll assume from the thread title thats it's only the int students who have to worry having forked out £XX,XXX (insert digits dependant on school). I feel the trainee demographic that should be concerned cannot just be defined by how much they have spent training! Everybody with an fATPL will for the next few months be a bit nervous about their employtment prosepects. It seems a little sour to improve ones self doubt due to the current downturn, by taunting those that have spent slightly more on their route to the licence.
As and when the slump picks up, i'll be watching this space to see who's bagging the jobs!
CR
As and when the slump picks up, i'll be watching this space to see who's bagging the jobs!
CR
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If the max hsbc will loan someone to do OAAs course is £50k, how are people getting £100k in debt? Seems the max debt will be £50k, the rest will have to be saved up before starting. The repayments will be around £500-600 a month. If the student managed to save £50k before starting I would assume they had a good career to go back to after they finish, thus should be able to service the £600 a month. If it was given by rich parents, then as long as the student lives at home, they can make the repayments even on minimum wage.
On the other hand, training modular, paying for each lesson at a time then perhaps taking a smallish loan for the IR you could find yourself stuck trying to pay off the £200 a month loan on top of a mortgage and family.
This is why the mod/int debate will never end and threads like this are pointless. You can make either method look better just by choosing your words carefully.
On the other hand, training modular, paying for each lesson at a time then perhaps taking a smallish loan for the IR you could find yourself stuck trying to pay off the £200 a month loan on top of a mortgage and family.
This is why the mod/int debate will never end and threads like this are pointless. You can make either method look better just by choosing your words carefully.
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Rossco,
Thanks mate....a useful contribution here and one I fully agree with.
As for £100k in debt, I do wish people would stop manipulating things in order to make their own argument more cogent.
For 1/ Is the type rating really 25/30k? I don't believe so (although could be wrong, I don't know the FYR specific) but would have thought more like £20k
2/ The max HSBC will loan anyone is indeed £50k, so we're talking £70k debt absolute worst case (which, admittedly is a bad one), not the £100k those that want to justify their own position would have everyone believe.
Aviator is right...and you do have to wonder if/when people will start realising that the debate will never end and thereby stop TRYING to force it.
Thanks mate....a useful contribution here and one I fully agree with.
As for £100k in debt, I do wish people would stop manipulating things in order to make their own argument more cogent.
For 1/ Is the type rating really 25/30k? I don't believe so (although could be wrong, I don't know the FYR specific) but would have thought more like £20k
2/ The max HSBC will loan anyone is indeed £50k, so we're talking £70k debt absolute worst case (which, admittedly is a bad one), not the £100k those that want to justify their own position would have everyone believe.
Aviator is right...and you do have to wonder if/when people will start realising that the debate will never end and thereby stop TRYING to force it.
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This is why the mod/int debate will never end and threads like this are pointless. You can make either method look better just by choosing your words carefully.
Couldn't agree more
The money isn't so much the issue - its probably the maximum you could afford whether Int or Mod.
The real advantage for the Mod boys is that they can pretty much stop. Today. Put it all on hold. Go back to paid work.
Or, they can complete the module they are currently on and then delay the remaining bits. THAT is the real advantage they have over someone who has committed to a training timetable they can't change without losing money.
The KEY ISSUE is not that there will never be any new jobs ever again. There will. The KEY is not to get your first ever IR issued and then not get a job for 3 years. Its expensive to keep it current and you'll get so generally rusty and jaded with the whole thing that passing the interview/sim ride is much harder than if you finished training a couple of months ago.
For many the attraction of Int has been the perceived continuity and speed of it. In the current situation that attraction has turned into a negative aspect.
WWW
The real advantage for the Mod boys is that they can pretty much stop. Today. Put it all on hold. Go back to paid work.
Or, they can complete the module they are currently on and then delay the remaining bits. THAT is the real advantage they have over someone who has committed to a training timetable they can't change without losing money.
The KEY ISSUE is not that there will never be any new jobs ever again. There will. The KEY is not to get your first ever IR issued and then not get a job for 3 years. Its expensive to keep it current and you'll get so generally rusty and jaded with the whole thing that passing the interview/sim ride is much harder than if you finished training a couple of months ago.
For many the attraction of Int has been the perceived continuity and speed of it. In the current situation that attraction has turned into a negative aspect.
WWW
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G-CEXO, what? you are scared? too bad for you. I will not change my mind on becoming a pilot, whatever happens. There are many jobs for starters all around the world. It's extremly sad for those people losing their jobs right now.
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There are many jobs for starters all around the world.
(and we are talking about Joe Bloggs low hours fATPL with a British passport speaking only english btw)
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G-CEXO, what? you are scared? too bad for you. I will not change my mind on becoming a pilot, whatever happens. There are many jobs for starters all around the world. It's extremly sad for those people losing their jobs right now.
are you on about?? G-XO
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Originally Posted by Aviator321
If the max hsbc will loan someone to do OAAs course is £50k, how are people getting £100k in debt? Seems the max debt will be £50k, the rest will have to be saved up before starting.
Originally Posted by clanger32
As for £100k in debt, I do wish people would stop manipulating things in order to make their own argument more cogent.
The quoted price on a course is for the minimum required hours which is what most people seem to budget for so assuming they put up 10-20k of their own money which could easily come from remortaging or a credit card to cover the remainder of the cost of the course (i've seen it done) we're up to 60-70k debt.
As with everything in life, things never go quite according to plan and it's not difficult to rack up some large unforseen bills. I've just checked Bristols hourly instruction rates.You're looking at £200/hr for a Warrior, £260/hr for an Arrow and £360 for a Senneca plus £20 per landing and £20 per approach .
Add to the original 60-70k a few extra hours for the ppl, a few for the imc, a few for the cpl and few for the IR, throw in some extra touch and goes and some extra approaches along with the odd exam resit and skills test retake and you wont see much change from 10k.
This happened in the past and it will continue to happen, most people I knew borrowed from family or put it on the credit card. Be advised, you are quite likely to go over hours for all aspects of flight trainning and it's a costly business. Add on 30K for a type rating and 100k doesn't look so inconceivable.
Originally Posted by "kwokwinguk
G CEXO, There are 2 paths to choose. One is to take a loan and see what the outcome will be after completing the course. The other is totally opposite not to take the loan and always wondering what will happen. What will you choose G CEXO?
At this moment in time, if you really have to start, modular seems like the logical way to go, i'd listen to WWW's advice, it gives you the flexibility you need at a time like this. Once you've got your ppl/imc, go somewhere sunny (and cheap), rent an aircraft and learn to fly, not just pass skills tests, flying on your own or with mates, exploring a different country (or part of the country) is where the fun is at.
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End of the airline loans? (well for a little while)
Well I have it first hand that the airline loans will be drying up for abit. HSBC will be stopping at the end of September and BBVA s far as I'm aware have already stopped, this is including the one who can put up security!
But what does this mean? Will the FTOs start dropping like flies? Will int students start drying up because people cannot afford it? Who knows?
Will this then mean that in 2 years time when possibly the last intergrated students start popping out they could be considered the last batch for a while? Who knows.
What I think needs to be addressed that this is not just airline specific, houses are not selling, people are tightening their purses, life is getting expensive.
It's not simply bout when will their be jobs, but when will the economy start to improve.
I think until then being intergrated or modular possibly makes no difference, if there are no jobs, then noone cares which route you took.
As for addressing which is best, as a chap bout to start CTC, I have nothing but admiration for the chaps who do the modular route, I simply would not be able to do the 9-5 and do the flying. I know this becuse I tried it, it just didn't work for me! But I hve several friends who did and are flying for ryanair now!
Who cares how you got their? Just remember who helped you when you were struggling and try and pass abit of it on!
Best of luck to everyone who's trying to get on the ladder!
Jim
But what does this mean? Will the FTOs start dropping like flies? Will int students start drying up because people cannot afford it? Who knows?
Will this then mean that in 2 years time when possibly the last intergrated students start popping out they could be considered the last batch for a while? Who knows.
What I think needs to be addressed that this is not just airline specific, houses are not selling, people are tightening their purses, life is getting expensive.
It's not simply bout when will their be jobs, but when will the economy start to improve.
I think until then being intergrated or modular possibly makes no difference, if there are no jobs, then noone cares which route you took.
As for addressing which is best, as a chap bout to start CTC, I have nothing but admiration for the chaps who do the modular route, I simply would not be able to do the 9-5 and do the flying. I know this becuse I tried it, it just didn't work for me! But I hve several friends who did and are flying for ryanair now!
Who cares how you got their? Just remember who helped you when you were struggling and try and pass abit of it on!
Best of luck to everyone who's trying to get on the ladder!
Jim
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Hi
I read the threads with interest, I just finished my CPL and am thinking of waiting a few months for the IR course.
All because of downturn and paying back some money quickly to cover the CPL costs as it was more then advertised with my proper job that pays. I was also thinking once passing a IR I will not get a job quickly and that the market has very experienced pilots that are type rated etc along with the integrated having some preferences over modular with certain airlines.
Family / financial commitments, I was unable to consider full time integrated either with OFT or CTC and only wanted to be in a very small amount of debt on the basis the first job wont pay so well and want to be my own free man
Also heard a rumour that HSBC might be pulling the plug on the 80K loans at the end of the month.
I read the threads with interest, I just finished my CPL and am thinking of waiting a few months for the IR course.
All because of downturn and paying back some money quickly to cover the CPL costs as it was more then advertised with my proper job that pays. I was also thinking once passing a IR I will not get a job quickly and that the market has very experienced pilots that are type rated etc along with the integrated having some preferences over modular with certain airlines.
Family / financial commitments, I was unable to consider full time integrated either with OFT or CTC and only wanted to be in a very small amount of debt on the basis the first job wont pay so well and want to be my own free man
Also heard a rumour that HSBC might be pulling the plug on the 80K loans at the end of the month.