Integrated Courses, You Poor Humans!

[Day_Dreamer]

Dream On !!!

I don't need to dream as I live that dream every day that I go to work and have done so through boom and bust for the last 36 years.
Several redundancies have not tarnished my love for the job, and as retirement looms another member of the clan has taken up the mantle and has a similar view of the future as I do.

Aerospace, as i have said before put up the facts that you know and offer constructive advice to those who will become our industries future.
I have met many who knock this industry, its future, terms and conditions in fact anything that does not meet their myopic view.

Do not try and put people off from joining any training course, as when the upturn comes there will be not enough pilots to fill those slots.
Proactive planning has never been a strong point of this industry but in this case we must plan for the future, And as training takes so long to complete we should encourage those planning on joining the industry to start now and be ready to fill those positions.

Earlier this year the statistics for employment were showing a higher rate than has been suggested here with several SSTR's in employment and others with BA, Flybe, Air Southwest to name but three.

Those coming out of training since May have had an increasingly hard time to find employment, those are the persons who have my sympathy and support, and who will have a hard time over the next months.

Training Now represents an investment in the future.

[James D]

Anyone who is naïve enough to believe the utter nonsense day dreamer is spouting I suggest you have a peruse of his prior posts and you'll soon see what he's up too....
In particular the ones relating to integrated courses and anything relating to OAA and the OAA selection. To summarise, if you can't be bothered to look, he's either advertising the OAA product, persuading wannabes to attend their selection, telling people how great RyanAir is to work for after an integrated course, or slating CTC.
It seems he has a serious vested interest in OAA, just remember the Oxford marketing department gets everywhere....even PPrune

[G CEXO]

Yeah - and it's quite amazing for a 23 yo to have that much money made from investments. Let me guess, you worked really hard to get get it, held down two jobs and struggled through. Mammy and Daddy didn't help at all. You must give me your recipe to success! And to be smug about it. And in today's climate! Simply amazing - I think Gordon Brown et al would like a chat with you!!

I dont give a whether you believe me or not. Just because your 28 and f***ing broke doesnt mean someone younger than you can't be succesful. I have made my money and now spending it on realising my dream.

and btw, I invested well before the thunderstorm we are in. Call it good luck or well played, either way I have done well.

G-XO

[Adios]

G-CEXO is starting to sound a lot like Thomas Harrison, God rest his soul.

[ChrisLKKB]

more than 100k. Its quite amazing what investment can do.

If you can make 100K by the time you are 23 i'd stick to investing, it'll be much more profitable that trying to get a job flying in the next 4 years or so.

(unless of course you were given 200K to start with)

As such a sucsessful investor you will know the importance of timing. By and sell your investments at the right time and you can make a fortune, by and sell at the wrong time and you'll loose the lot.

Similarly, starting and finishing your trainning at the right time and you'll stand a fair chance of getting a job. Starting and finishing at the wrong time and it could prove to be very costly.

However, if you do choose to start your trainning soon you should feel happy in the knowlege that you'll be helping to keep an instructor in a job during what will inevitably be a tough few years for FTOs. It will also ensure that there are instructors available to train those who have been more prudent than yourself when the up turn does come along.

Do yourself a favour and before you do part with any money, spend the next week or so reading the financial crisis section of the telegraph on line to get a feel for how bad things are and how much worse they are going to get. If you still think that you are going to be the exception then go for it, alternatively you may just spot an oppotunity to invest some of that 100K at a time when the market is low which may put you in a much better position in 2 years time to start your trainning and still have some money to live on while you are hunting for your first job.

[Aerospace101]

Beware of False Prophets

Thank you JamesD for the heads up. I did have a look at DayDreamers recent posts, and they do have a vast knowledge about integrated training courses, esp OAA, ryanair cadet scheme and likes to slate CTC;

Well I am biased, as I strongly believe in the OAA product

OAA have nearly full courses for 2008 with Netjets, Flybe, EPST to name a few customers.
Rumours that BA may enter the fray as well.
And there appears to be an endless supply of persons, prepared to pay the current prices.

There is a notice board at OAA with the names of those who have successfully obtained jobs, both via the Waypoint scheme and Integrated.

OAA, FTE, and Cabair will try their best to place students but if there are no jobs then it will take a couple of years to see an upturn.

Don't be sucked in by the CTC hype, there is no guarantee that they will do any better in the future than the other established training schools.

So DayDreamer, which part of the industry are you IN? Im in the airlines. It sounds like youre in the Flight Training Industry??

Back to your last post:

Aerospace, as i have said before put up the facts that you know

Here are some facts; if you read my post:
- Major economic world downturn
- Airlines gone bust: maxjet, XL, zoom...
- High oil prices
- Banking crisis means cash drying up for airlines to burn
- Airlines predicting losses this winter (Ryanair, BA...)
- Unpaid leave for pilots
- Airline employement frozen or suspended
- Holding pools either filling up or already full.

Now the last time something like this happened was Sept11 2001. Airline employment for low hour grads on a sustainable scale did not restore until 2004. So that was 3yrs recovery. So a lesson from history would suggest airline employment will not be back to where it has been for atleast another 3 years. DEFINATELY NOT the 15 months it takes to complete a training course.

Is it not obvious that undertaking training now is a very risky idea. Ive made it clear I'm not denying there wont be any jobs. Flybe obviously recruiting. But we are talking about such a small percentage of jobs to fight over for the 100's of fATPL holders already job searching; forget those just taking plunge right now.

IF you start training now: A small percentage of you will get a rhs FO job ~5%. A few of you will get jobs in corporate/air taxi etc. The MAJORITY will NOT get any aviation related jobs. You will spend a few years out of flying before the upturn, costing you to keep ratings current and trying to make yourself employable. You will be throwing money away!! While your colleagues who graduated after you can walk into jobs because of their skills currency and timing with the upturn.

offer constructive advice

I have. I'll repeat it again. Do not start training now. Wait atleast 1-2yrs. In the mean time either get a job and continue saving (can you afford a SSTR?) or go into education, get more qualifications. When the time comes that the job market is more bouyant, and you can actually see FTO grads getting jobs, then take the plunge. In 2yrs time if the airlines are desperate for students, as daydreamer suggests, maybe therell be more sponsorship or mentored schemes around. Which are clearly worth waiting around for in any case.

If you want to go in corporate or instructing then maybe now is a good time. I dont know. I have no knowledge of that sector.

Training Now represents an investment in the future.

Well, I believe you are wrong. I think you have a vested interest in those potential students reading this website, which I warned readers to in my last post.

Maybe starting training in late 2009 will be an OK decision. But right now it will cost you much heartache and money.

[James D]

Members of the Oxford marketing machine seem to pop up in various guises on PPrune, this is one of the more obvious cases though. Just for starters, here you have a guy encouraging wannabes to attend the Oxford assessment over the GAPAN ones for an impartial assessment of your future potential as an airline pilots..... the alarm bells should be ringing. (See his prior posts)

Anyone else who has also attended both the OAA assessment and the GAPAN ones will know what a preposterous statement this is. I'll be adding him to my list of posters to disregard going forward.

[cleared-touch-and-go]

Bitterness

I have read this thread with interest and I have to say there is a hell of a lot of bitterness on here. I thought the idea of PPRUNE was so that we could all unite, share information and generally be part of a community which loves aviation??

I also don't understand this venomous attitude between Modular and Integrated students. We're not all that different in the head - most of us love the thrill of taking off, the challenge of getting from point A to point B and the peace of mind of walking away from the aircraft safely after a flight. We all want to become employed - at which point the training will be irrelevant and we will share the flight controls with people who we don't even ask what kind of training they did, nevermind judge them on their response! So, the Integrated students shouldn't lose sight of the fact that for some, Modular represents the only way of fulfilling a dream, but at the same time, Modular people shouldn't take any satisfaction in the fact that integrated students don't have the most ideal situation at present. Are we not all in this game together? Sharing information to inform the masses as opposed to critisising decisions that have been made by individuals?

Personally, I am a modular student. My Dad is a builder and my Mum is a nurse. Neither of them are particularly wealthy, but they work unbelievably hard and as long as I work half as hard as they have done I will be pleased. Realistically, my family can't provide me the money I need for the training, let alone Integrated - but I don't blame them for that, that's just natural selection and how it is - i'm not bitter about it. If my Dad was a lawyer and my Mum a high class hooker, would I use their money to train? Damn right I would! I don't blame anybody for using the resources available to them as long as the passion and commitment to genuinely be pilots is there.

I had a chance to go integrated but I failed my simulator checkride at Phase 4 of the CTC. Therefore, I have had to work hard, save money and borrow from the bank to start my training. Does this make me hate people who got on the CTC course? Absolutely not - good luck to them. They were successful in something I wasn't and again, that's life.

The point I am getting at is that however you train and however you find the funds to do it, it is only relevant if you a) work hard and b) enjoy it. All other factors such as rich parents, big bank loans, poor parents, small loans, investments that have come good for you, etc etc etc - they are all totally insignificant if you don't knuckle down and work hard whilst enjoying it. I am not flying until tomorrow evening now and I have had four or five early morning flights on the spin, so I have afforded myself the luxury of a couple of bud lights and a lie in tomorrow. But as I sit here on my balcony in Orlando and look out at the waving palm tress and lightning illuminating the sky, I am totally happy with what I am doing. If I could go back and get on the CTC course, I'm not going to lie and say I wouldn't do it, because of course I would, but it wasn't to be, so I just have to reach my goal another way. So for those who are lucky enough to be on such schemes, ignore these bitter people who are on here boasting that the industry is going belly up and you're the ones who will suffer - they haven't come to terms with the fact that they aren't as fortunate as you either because (like me) they weren't talented enough to get on a CTC type scheme or because you have had financial backing that wasn't available to them.

I, on the other hand have totally come to terms with this and I wish everybody, whether you are modular or integrated, the very best of luck. Most of us have taken a big step into this training arena, leaving behind good jobs and making financial gambles - but I for one wouldn't swap it for the world. We're all aiming to get to the same place so why are we battling with each other to get there!?

Just enjoy it - for some of us, the pursuit of this dream will not come to fuition and for others, they will have great careers - but one thing is for certain, if I find myself in an office doing a boring job in 10 years time still paying loans off, I will be quite depressed, but I will always have the memories of being in a beautiful part of the world, being young and learning how to fly an airplane, having the time of my life and that is something which I don't think money can buy.

To end, here is a quote from one of my friends back home in an email he sent to me. It made me realise that I have had the balls to do what I'm doing and even if it never comes off, at least I tried:

"Fair play mate - out there chasing the dream while were all here working for pennies and answering to idiots". Very true - all students should be applauded for their ambition and their sacrifices. Let's just stop having a dig at each other eh?

[Prophead]

Cleared-touch-and-go, most people on here agree with you.

If you have the cash or means of getting it then good luck to you, if you have worked hard and saved the money for an integrated course then well done. That is a hell of an acheivement in its own right.

The problem is alot of people who dont have the cash will borrow it. This may make sense in a time where the industry is booming and likely to be for the foreseable future. That is not the case at the moment. It is not enough for things to just level out, there will still be many pilots out there who have been made redundant. There may be even more by the time your qualified. Things will have to be considerably better before low houred fATPL's are getting jobs. There will always be the odd few and the schools will parade these around as marketing material but its just as likely they got in due to contacts in the industry or being in the right place at the right itme than their choice of training route.

If people like OAA are still marketing their product at people who require a big loan then they should be ashamed of themselves, but hey, they are a business after all. Banks have teams of experts there to assess risk when lending money, the current problems are caused in part to them lending money to people who were too risky. Even these banks are starting to stop the loans for an fATPL. What does that tell you?

If you cannot afford Integrated (or anything else for that matter) without taking on a huge loan and you cannot work to save for it, then guess what? you cant have it. If more people thought this way the country would not be sinking in debt.

Im not saying that you cant get an fATPL. You can get exactly the same licence, but if you borrowing money then why do it the most expensive way?

[clanger32]

Thankyou Cleared touch and go.
Like you, I really couldn't care less how someone got their licence....I'll judge someone on the content of their personality, not how they got their licence...and unfortunately there are a number of people lacking in that respect. You however, sound like a top bloke to have a beer with...maybe some day...

Aerospace - I really don't mean to be rude, but your posts really come across as "listen to ME, I AM a pilot, I know what's best for all of you and you're all fools if you don't listen to ME". Which is all well and good, but I think the point that Day Dreamer (regardless of his/her affiliation or not with any FTO) is trying to get across is that you've not backed that up, with anything substantial. For example:

Here are some facts; if you read my post:
- Major economic world downturn
- Airlines gone bust: maxjet, XL, zoom...
- High oil prices
- Banking crisis means cash drying up for airlines to burn
- Airlines predicting losses this winter (Ryanair, BA...)
- Unpaid leave for pilots
- Airline employement frozen or suspended
- Holding pools either filling up or already full.

These AREN'T actually news as such - that you would only know through your intense involvement in the airline industry (although they are [probably] true statements - bear with me here).

These could have been picked up from any media by a 13 year old with no experience. There's nothing to back your assertion that you REALLY know what you're talking about....for example, I received some info the other day that BAs holding pool is emptying faster than I thought it would be (that's not to say it's a rapid depletion) - so how true IS your last bullet? Certainly true that BA aren't taking any more CVs, but how long will that last?
I actually think you're right on a lot of things and suspect you do know what you're on about, but I'm afraid I do find some of the self righteousness a bit trying....there are a LOT of people on here with more than the 10 years experience that's the max you could have....

[Day_Dreamer]

Well Well Well
People who think I am part of the OAA customer service team are very wrong, yes I do know people in that department as well as the owners of CTC, and managers in FTE.
So I have a balanced view of the training industry and may be more optomistic because of what I know.

If you read my posts they offer a balanced view of the industry rather than the "Doom and Gloom" merchants and perpetual moaners generally viewed on Pprune.

Aerospace you are talking about Now again and not looking towards a resolution in the next couple of years, which I am sure will happen.
Look at 9/11 there were massive layoffs in the industry but within less than two years the markets was buoyant again.
The industry is global and to get a job we must not just look at the UK and Europe, other economies are suffering yes but there are those which are still expanding and recruiting.
The job section of Flight International still has jobs being advertised and only yesterday a friend of mine (low hours modular student) told me that he has that Jet job and will start at the end of this month.
Jobs are scarse, but I can say that there are still jobs out there, not in the legacy carriers or some of the larger charter operators, but if you are keen and willing to take ANY flying job you will find work even now.

As for my credentials I have over 35 years in the Industry was an Oxford Air Training School Integrated student in the early 70's and have been flying professionally in the Air Taxi, Airline, and Corporate fields for all that time.
Having been through the earlier Boom and Bust of the 70' and early 80's I understand the job market and I have been on the dole when out of work, on more than one occasion, but fortunately for never longer than 6 months.

During 1982 When Laker went bust the job market was very bad and there were several hundred trained pilots looking for work, this took most of them abroad to get that work, but within 2 years the UK market was opening up again and so they returned.
During that time the schools at Oxford and Perth were still producing new pilots who found work, even before some experienced pilots.

As for my support of Ryanair, that comes from having many friends who still work for them or who have worked for them, nearly all of whom were relatively happy with their choice.
For SSTR pilots the airline is a good starting point, and the RYR training standards are recognised as high in the industry and recruitment of these pilots to other airlines has been beneficial to the future employer.

High oil prices yes relatively from 12 months ago but today its below $89 a barrel from a high of $148, on falling demand.
Unpaid leave has been in the industry again from the early 80's and has been used on a voluntary and compulsory basis to keep pilots cabin crew, and office workers in employment rather than layoffs.
Mind you it was in the days that management valued it work force.

Funding for training is a big problem, but if its available go for the dream.
The banks have tightened up their criteria for lending as I have said in the past, and a requirement for £100K is certainly ballpark if you consider an SSTR as well.
The questions are can you raise that money and afford the repayments later ?
Without a strong backup plan the banks will not loan that money now.
The result of the credit squeeze is that there will be less students going through training and therefore at the end they will find those jobs through higher demand and less availability.

Thanks for giving me a good laugh after reading some of the posts, and I am sure the OAA marketing department are having a good laugh too at the thought that I work with them.

[eikido]

Out of all the fATPL holders last year I would estimate 50% were getting airline employment. Maybe 25% instructing/air taxi/corporate etc And 25% no jobs in flying.

At the moment, and for the next few years we are talking about maybe 5% at best of fATPL holders getting airline employment. Thats 1 in 20. Now, you need to ask youself what makes you that 1:20 statistic - because 95% of you wont be getting a RHS first officer position.

A 1:2 ratio chance of getting a job during good times??? I assumed it was something like 1:20-1:50! And ~1:200 during bad times! (And i mean all pilot jobs in Europe, not only RHS on a JET). Edit: Maybe excluding FI jobs.

I hope that you are correct and i'm really wrong.

I haven't started my training yet. I'm still planning and have for the past 5 months. Modular however is the only option for me.

Eikido

[eikido]

I apologise for reposting this thread, but I am on a tirade.......


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Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence, get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:

1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...

2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR

3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.

4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly, you will become un-current very quickly and secondly, you learnt how to fly so FLY.

5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or you will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook (and they are family members

6)Listen to WWW and redsnail

7)Don't give large deposits and never ever ever ever pay for the whole course upfront....puleeeeeeeeez


Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money(if any) to pay for the flight training. Also the military is not training that many either.

2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.


That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described, so I KNOW it works....

Thank you and good night!!

I can't believe it. I got goose bumps when i read this. This is EXACTLY (all points in your list) what i have concluded after 5 months of planning!!!
Including becoming an FI, and listening to WWW and redsnail.

There is however one point i have been thinking of which you haven't mentioned. Plan and do it during a recession and not during good times!

Eikido

[ChrisLKKB]

There is however one point i have been thinking of which you haven't mentioned. Plan and do it during a recession and not during good times!

It might be stating the obvious and you may have already come to this conclusion but down turns are sharp and painful, and the recoveries are long and tortuous. My advice would be not to get drawn in by companies with large marketing departments who pressurise you to start trainning as soon as possible claiming you need to be ready for a boom in recruitment, the recovery will long and protracted and we haven't yet hit the bottom. Any boom is a long way off.

To be perfectly honest i'd be very wary of any company with a large marketing department, fancy glossy brochures and an impressive website, it's your 70K that is paying for that.

Look for good first time pass rates and recommendations from past students and ignore carefully manipulated statistics from companies who claim they are more likely to get you into a job because of their connections with the airlines.

There are only two FTOs that are really worth their salt and neither seem to appear with any regularity on this discussion board, (probably mainly due to the fact nobody ever has any complaints about them).

Regarding Modular and Intergrated, having done the CPL and IR alongside intergrated students, I can tell you that there is NO difference between the two. Same aircraft, same instructors, same tests, same licence, NO DIFFERENCE.

Right now the modular route is the way to go as it has the advantage of allowing you to time when you finish your trainning and in the future I can see the integrated route being replaced by the MPL.

[James D]

Well Well Well
People who think I am part of the OAA customer service team are very wrong

Maybe so, but as a wannabe I find it very difficult to take your advice seriously when 90% of your posts read like an OAA marketing pitch.

I find your motivation curious, if I recall it was only last week you were over on the CTC wings thread advising potential wannabes not to sucked in by the CTC hype (not to mention gloating about their recent loss of unsecured bank funding) yet you appear to expend an extraordinary amount of time and effort hyping up the OAA product??

[Day_Dreamer]

James

CTC is a good company who have got fat on the backs of their product.
I am totally against their practice of only paying 1K per month for the first 6 months this is worse than slave wages.
The guys I know had to rent a house together and claim housing benefit to survive even back in the 80's.

The established schools are the best route to the fATPL and CTC is among those although the junior on the block.

My own experience with wannabees like yourself has given me the insight and experience to recommend a route for success in training.

I am a civilian associated with the Air Training Corps and over the past few years several cadets have taken the road to the fATPL the most successful have trod the integrated path.
They are now with BA, Flybe and Ryanair.
So I feel as a professional pilot, parent and trainer that my advice is as good as the next persons in the industry.

As for OAA, I am an ex student and fly regularly with ex students so I know the standards set and obtained.
I have also flown with many from the modular route and from FTE and have my opinions about the type of training from both, none of it bad I might add.
As I said I was integrated and still strongly support that route if the individual can afford the costs, and repayments.

The modular integrated debate will go on for a long time to come, but the feelings in the European CAA's are towards a more regulated training regime and that points towards an integrated style route being their prefered way.
Modular whilst the route of many will be more regulated by the JAA regulations in the not too distant future.
My contacts in the UK CAA want a much more regulated approach to modular training which will in their view improve standards.

Good luck to the wannabees out there, the choice is your, which ever way you go.

My advice is have a good backup plan, but dont hold back on your goal, things will improve, over the next 2 years.

I ask those of you who have gone the various routes to post here on how long from the first step it took to achieve the fATPL.
That is for modular the first PPL flight and for integrated from selection or the first approach for funding.
This will give a good basis for those planning on their career a time frame to plan for completion at the start of an upturn.