Is Cabair Sueing Diamond?
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Diamond vs Service
I dont know if it's true, but I can imagine that they are going to because the Service at Diamond is up beyond all ********
I own a share in a Diamond and you wouldn't believe how many problems we had with several Diamond's on our airfield!
There is something wrong with the 1.7 ltr Thiellert engines so that they have to be replaced it they find a certain flaw during service.
Problem is that if the engine has to be changed for a new 1.7 ltr engine you find out that Thiellert isn't making the 1.7 ltr engine anymore, only the 2.0 ltr and that's an engine where all those aircraft aren't certified for. So they have to be retrofitted for the 2.0 ltr Engine.
And of course this cost's money and the engine's aren't available!
We had one aircraft waiting in the hangar for 3 months before it could be retrofitted, another one is still in the hangar waiting for the new engine!
So, to all of you that have to make a living by flying Diamond's in a flying school, GOOD LUCK!!!!
Raceeend
I own a share in a Diamond and you wouldn't believe how many problems we had with several Diamond's on our airfield!
There is something wrong with the 1.7 ltr Thiellert engines so that they have to be replaced it they find a certain flaw during service.
Problem is that if the engine has to be changed for a new 1.7 ltr engine you find out that Thiellert isn't making the 1.7 ltr engine anymore, only the 2.0 ltr and that's an engine where all those aircraft aren't certified for. So they have to be retrofitted for the 2.0 ltr Engine.
And of course this cost's money and the engine's aren't available!
We had one aircraft waiting in the hangar for 3 months before it could be retrofitted, another one is still in the hangar waiting for the new engine!
So, to all of you that have to make a living by flying Diamond's in a flying school, GOOD LUCK!!!!
Raceeend
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The Thielert engines are indeed not very reliable.
Many schools bought it in a bid to reduce operating costs but often costs were found to be higher than operating a piston engine twin because the plane was more often in the hangar than in the air.
At the overhaul, they need to remove the engine and put a "new engine".
I can't tell for sure and many customers surely don't know whether these are really factory new engines or just reassembled engines, because Thielert does it all.
Many schools bought it in a bid to reduce operating costs but often costs were found to be higher than operating a piston engine twin because the plane was more often in the hangar than in the air.
At the overhaul, they need to remove the engine and put a "new engine".
I can't tell for sure and many customers surely don't know whether these are really factory new engines or just reassembled engines, because Thielert does it all.
I can't tell for sure and many customers surely don't know whether these are really factory new engines or just reassembled engines, because Thielert does it all.
AFAIK Thielert engines are never overhauled or rebuild, factory new replacement engines are supplied.
So, to all of you that have to make a living by flying Diamond's in a flying school, GOOD LUCK!!!!
You don't have to send the old engines back?
They are checked by Thielert for unusual wear and tear, then recycled for the aluminum.
Millen aviation is still advertising with the DA-40 on their website, still offering for hire and instruction.
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Yes you do, but they are not rebuild.
They are checked by Thielert for unusual wear and tear, then recycled for the aluminum.
They are checked by Thielert for unusual wear and tear, then recycled for the aluminum.
They are probably recycled and that's the big problem.
When you're getting the retrofit or a "replacement" you think that you're getting an all new engine made of all new parts. Well, you're not, and that's how Thielert is making money and that also explains the high levels of unreliability.
That's why the replacement engine is 6000 euro cheaper, and I don't believe that half a cubic meter of aluminium is worth 6000€ + the transport costs of the engine... that's also probably why a reputable school like Cabair is willing to sue...
http://www.centurion-engines.com/
Last edited by Nichibei Aviation; 6th Feb 2008 at 14:28.
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That's why the replacement engine is 6000 euro cheaper
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Replace avgas engine with CENTURION 2.0 in Cessna 172 Ready-to-fly kerosene piston engine CENTURION 2.0 completely pre-assembled "firewall forward"-unit including 950 parts:40,470 EUR*
» 14 V FADEC System » Engine periphery: gearbox, propeller, prop governor, turbo charger, coolant system, engine mounts, single lever control, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter and wiring harness. » engine and aircraft instruments »certification »Long range kit
for Cessna K, L, M, N 425 EUR
CENTURION 2.0» Kerosene piston engine CENTURION 2.0 » 14 V FADEC system and wiring harness » gearbox, turbo charger, prop governor, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter » certification 30,085 EUR
New CENTURION 2.0 after 2,400 hr operating time / TBR » Kerosene piston engine CENTURION 2.0 without instruments » 14 V FADEC system and wiring harness » gearbox, turbo charger, prop governor, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter » certification 24,445 EUR
Are the "intruments" (whatever that may be) worth 6000€?
Anyone have any info on what these instruments are?
Why would a manufacturer want its engines (weighing 150kg a piece) back at every replacement? Are the engines sent back to Diamond USA or shipped to Vienna?
Anyone has info about the reliability of the 2.0 engines?
» 14 V FADEC System » Engine periphery: gearbox, propeller, prop governor, turbo charger, coolant system, engine mounts, single lever control, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter and wiring harness. » engine and aircraft instruments »certification »Long range kit
for Cessna K, L, M, N 425 EUR
CENTURION 2.0» Kerosene piston engine CENTURION 2.0 » 14 V FADEC system and wiring harness » gearbox, turbo charger, prop governor, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter » certification 30,085 EUR
New CENTURION 2.0 after 2,400 hr operating time / TBR » Kerosene piston engine CENTURION 2.0 without instruments » 14 V FADEC system and wiring harness » gearbox, turbo charger, prop governor, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter » certification 24,445 EUR
Are the "intruments" (whatever that may be) worth 6000€?
Anyone have any info on what these instruments are?
Why would a manufacturer want its engines (weighing 150kg a piece) back at every replacement? Are the engines sent back to Diamond USA or shipped to Vienna?
Anyone has info about the reliability of the 2.0 engines?
Last edited by Nichibei Aviation; 7th Feb 2008 at 02:31.
There you go ;-)
They are probably recycled and that's the big problem.
They are probably recycled and that's the big problem.
The engines are not rebuild.
Every engine is factory new, zero hrs apart from the run-in time and ECU calibration.
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Maintenance standards are VERY important with the Thielert engines - have them looked after by people who know what they are doing (e.g Bristol Flying Centre or Aviation Maintenance at BOH) and they are fine.
If they are "looked after" by people who don't know what they are doing then you have trouble.
There are some badly abused Thielert powered PA 28s that give nothing but trouble to their new keepers - just don't ask me who used to run them!
There are supply problems with 1.7l engines in general (i.e. you can't get them) and 2.0l engines for some types. These are actually as much problems with the Diamond specific parts as with the Thielert engines (in fact more so).
People forget that there is a certain degree of compensation to be had from the fact that fuel costs are 75% lower than AVGAS powered aeroplanes.
If they are "looked after" by people who don't know what they are doing then you have trouble.
There are some badly abused Thielert powered PA 28s that give nothing but trouble to their new keepers - just don't ask me who used to run them!
There are supply problems with 1.7l engines in general (i.e. you can't get them) and 2.0l engines for some types. These are actually as much problems with the Diamond specific parts as with the Thielert engines (in fact more so).
People forget that there is a certain degree of compensation to be had from the fact that fuel costs are 75% lower than AVGAS powered aeroplanes.
Last edited by moggiee; 7th Feb 2008 at 22:19.
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It's too early to give definitive data on 2.0l reliability, but first indications are promising.
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Thanks, very helpful
Where does that happen, in their factory?
As we may imagine that may imply quite some logistic costs to have them shipped all the way to Germany...
No Nichibei, recycled as in engine block is molten down.
The engines are not rebuild.
The engines are not rebuild.
As we may imagine that may imply quite some logistic costs to have them shipped all the way to Germany...
Last edited by Nichibei Aviation; 8th Feb 2008 at 02:02.
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The basic engine is made for the Mercedes-Benz A-series automobile, I believe. It gets a gearbox to drop the revs to a level suitable for a propeller and a lot of other accessories to make it an aircraft engine but the core is a mass-produced engine for a sub-compact car. This must make it quite cheap compared to the average low-volume production aircraft engine.
I would guess that the melting down is for two reasons.
First and most important, you wouldn't have that engine going out the back door to be resold and used in another aircraft, perhaps resulting in legal problems for Thielert.
Secondly, most European countries have programs that require recycling, and aluminium is a prime candidate for that.
I flew a diesel-powered DA-42 in the U.K. when I had to do an IR check. I really fell in love with it, especially the Garmin glass. Of course I only had a few hours with it and it was almost new.
The DA-42 does look a bit spindly and insubstantial but then I am used to old-fashioned airplanes made of sheet alloy riveted together. This modern way of building things out of molded composites and CNC-milled alloy is almost unknown to me so that I don't know how to evaluate it.
I hope they get the teething troubles sorted out because it looked like a really neat piece of kit. What with AVGAS being harder and harder to find in many parts of the world this looked like one way forward.
I would guess that the melting down is for two reasons.
First and most important, you wouldn't have that engine going out the back door to be resold and used in another aircraft, perhaps resulting in legal problems for Thielert.
Secondly, most European countries have programs that require recycling, and aluminium is a prime candidate for that.
I flew a diesel-powered DA-42 in the U.K. when I had to do an IR check. I really fell in love with it, especially the Garmin glass. Of course I only had a few hours with it and it was almost new.
The DA-42 does look a bit spindly and insubstantial but then I am used to old-fashioned airplanes made of sheet alloy riveted together. This modern way of building things out of molded composites and CNC-milled alloy is almost unknown to me so that I don't know how to evaluate it.
I hope they get the teething troubles sorted out because it looked like a really neat piece of kit. What with AVGAS being harder and harder to find in many parts of the world this looked like one way forward.
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From what I can see the engine has problems when the instalation has not been built by Thielert.
The Thielert retrofits seem to be more reliable but short on power for the PA28 and to a lesser extent the C172, The Robin DR400 instalation seems to be the best but Robin's did not overstep the mark and initaly only put the engine in the lower power trainer market.
With the introduction of the 155HP engine Robin now have the power to replace the 180HP lycoming with a diesel engine that excceds the performance of the Lycoming (if the numbers fron Robin are correct).
The only issue to be sorted now is reliability and I think that the factory are doing quite well with the instalations that they have built, however it is still a very close run thing between the costs of running the Avgas and deisel engine.
The Thielert retrofits seem to be more reliable but short on power for the PA28 and to a lesser extent the C172, The Robin DR400 instalation seems to be the best but Robin's did not overstep the mark and initaly only put the engine in the lower power trainer market.
With the introduction of the 155HP engine Robin now have the power to replace the 180HP lycoming with a diesel engine that excceds the performance of the Lycoming (if the numbers fron Robin are correct).
The only issue to be sorted now is reliability and I think that the factory are doing quite well with the instalations that they have built, however it is still a very close run thing between the costs of running the Avgas and deisel engine.
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DA40 and DA42 installations of the Centurion 1.7 seem to be more reliable than the aftermarket conversions on other types. This seems to be because the airframe is optimized for the engine and its requirements (e.g. cooling).
I look forward to seeing a 2litre DA42 in action - it will make an interesting comparison with the 1.7s.
I look forward to seeing a 2litre DA42 in action - it will make an interesting comparison with the 1.7s.
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Operating Costs for the DA42
Hi:
I am trying to work out some economics for operating the DA42 as a multi trainer. Can you help with your experiences in terms of operating costs?
I am trying to work out some economics for operating the DA42 as a multi trainer. Can you help with your experiences in terms of operating costs?