Aviation Technology With Pilot Studies
A thought or two, as somebody who has been through most of these systems and taught on a few.
Firstly do a degree because you want a degree - for the challenge, the career options it offers, or from a sheer fascination with the subject. Don't do it as a backup, or because somebody's told you that doing a degree is a good idea, or to keep your parents happy.
All degrees are not equal. For example, whilst the Salford degree mentioned is accredited by the Royal Aeronautical Society (and thus allows you to qualify as a Chartered Engineer), the Leeds degree isn't, and won't. Both are probably fine if you are, say, considering trying to become an airline pilot then using the degree as a basis for moving into technical management, but if you'd like to go into aircraft design only one is likely to be useful.
What's the difference between CPL or ATPL exams and a degree? Just about everything - a degree is about deep understanding of a subject and the ability to use that information to solve problems - it tends to be examined through project work, mathematical examinations, or perhaps by essays - either ongoing or in timed examinations. An ATPL on the other hand is about learning a large amount of material and reproducing it in multiple choice examinations - only a certain amount of calculation is required (for example in navigation) and that tends to be fairly formulaic. This is not to denegrate a tough study task, but the requirements are very different to those for a degree.
Speaking for myself, I have degree level and flying qualifications, and between them find a great deal of job satisfaction (and I'm pretty well paid too!). I think that the engineering qualifications and experience make me a better pilot, and the flying qualifications and experience make me a better aeronautical engineer. However, neither is essential to the other and both were a lot of work if I didn't enjoy them for themselves, rather than just as an add-on.
G
Firstly do a degree because you want a degree - for the challenge, the career options it offers, or from a sheer fascination with the subject. Don't do it as a backup, or because somebody's told you that doing a degree is a good idea, or to keep your parents happy.
All degrees are not equal. For example, whilst the Salford degree mentioned is accredited by the Royal Aeronautical Society (and thus allows you to qualify as a Chartered Engineer), the Leeds degree isn't, and won't. Both are probably fine if you are, say, considering trying to become an airline pilot then using the degree as a basis for moving into technical management, but if you'd like to go into aircraft design only one is likely to be useful.
What's the difference between CPL or ATPL exams and a degree? Just about everything - a degree is about deep understanding of a subject and the ability to use that information to solve problems - it tends to be examined through project work, mathematical examinations, or perhaps by essays - either ongoing or in timed examinations. An ATPL on the other hand is about learning a large amount of material and reproducing it in multiple choice examinations - only a certain amount of calculation is required (for example in navigation) and that tends to be fairly formulaic. This is not to denegrate a tough study task, but the requirements are very different to those for a degree.
Speaking for myself, I have degree level and flying qualifications, and between them find a great deal of job satisfaction (and I'm pretty well paid too!). I think that the engineering qualifications and experience make me a better pilot, and the flying qualifications and experience make me a better aeronautical engineer. However, neither is essential to the other and both were a lot of work if I didn't enjoy them for themselves, rather than just as an add-on.
G
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Greenfreddie,
I agree/disagree with your comment on University degree. It really deppends on the course.
There are many courses at University that are a complete waste of time, and will most likely get you a 16k job however there are many jobs out there that give you the opportunity to make some big bucks i.e accountants, lawyers, doctors etc.
I personally believe that the Aviation Technology With Pilot Studies course is a waste of time. If your wanting to get a degree, do your degree in somehting else other than flight training, this will give you a backup and a bit more experience in different areas.
If you don't fancy doing any other courses, just do the ATPL course as usual and ignore the degree. It costs too much time, effort and money to study a course that isn't really goign to give you an advantage, especially in an industry that bases a lot of it's selection on the candidates skill, not necessarily qualifications.
If your in Scotland, I would highly recommend going for a degree because it won't cost you a penny.
I agree/disagree with your comment on University degree. It really deppends on the course.
There are many courses at University that are a complete waste of time, and will most likely get you a 16k job however there are many jobs out there that give you the opportunity to make some big bucks i.e accountants, lawyers, doctors etc.
I personally believe that the Aviation Technology With Pilot Studies course is a waste of time. If your wanting to get a degree, do your degree in somehting else other than flight training, this will give you a backup and a bit more experience in different areas.
If you don't fancy doing any other courses, just do the ATPL course as usual and ignore the degree. It costs too much time, effort and money to study a course that isn't really goign to give you an advantage, especially in an industry that bases a lot of it's selection on the candidates skill, not necessarily qualifications.
If your in Scotland, I would highly recommend going for a degree because it won't cost you a penny.
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Sorry to be negative (this is pprune after all!) but after looking over the course syllabus this reeks of a mickey mouse degree. In the first year a compulsory module is PPL theory - sixteen year old kids on the RAF scholarships can ace these exams after a night of cramming. The rest of the three years seems quite close to the ATPL syllabus, but it shouldn't take three years to do something that others do in two whilst working a full-time job.
A key giveaway is that its from the faculty of engineering at a UK university. You may or not be aware, but a lot of engineering departments are closing or under threat of closure in the UK in this new age of fee based courses. They simply don't attract enough students and therefore course fees to justify their cost to the university. The solution is to invent some highly popular degree (e.g. Football engineering) that is a solid revenue stream.
The department where I work (albeit in the US) started a 'broadcast meteorology' course a few years back which was heavily subscribed and a real money spinner for the university. It was essentially a taught class of PPL Met with 'gee whiz' pictures and touchy-feely theatre classes. The problem came after the first lot had graduated, none of them got jobs in TV/radio since they had a shallow knowledge of meteorology. Instead the jobs went to the normal meteorology graduates. Word got back to the current crop of first year students (undergrads in US don't 'declare their major' until the second year for some odd reason) and enrollment dropped to zero. We no longer have this program.
If you want to study ATPL theory, buy the books and do it in your spare time. If you want to go to university, pick a 'proper' degree with real career prospects based on your interests and skills. Don't make the mistake of a half-arsed attempt at both at the same time as there are no short cuts and it'll hurt you in the long run.
Again, sorry to be so negative, I'm not trying to insult any of you or your aspirations, but I work closer to the other end of university courses and this course seems like a poor deal.
Cheers,
Gareth.
A key giveaway is that its from the faculty of engineering at a UK university. You may or not be aware, but a lot of engineering departments are closing or under threat of closure in the UK in this new age of fee based courses. They simply don't attract enough students and therefore course fees to justify their cost to the university. The solution is to invent some highly popular degree (e.g. Football engineering) that is a solid revenue stream.
The department where I work (albeit in the US) started a 'broadcast meteorology' course a few years back which was heavily subscribed and a real money spinner for the university. It was essentially a taught class of PPL Met with 'gee whiz' pictures and touchy-feely theatre classes. The problem came after the first lot had graduated, none of them got jobs in TV/radio since they had a shallow knowledge of meteorology. Instead the jobs went to the normal meteorology graduates. Word got back to the current crop of first year students (undergrads in US don't 'declare their major' until the second year for some odd reason) and enrollment dropped to zero. We no longer have this program.
If you want to study ATPL theory, buy the books and do it in your spare time. If you want to go to university, pick a 'proper' degree with real career prospects based on your interests and skills. Don't make the mistake of a half-arsed attempt at both at the same time as there are no short cuts and it'll hurt you in the long run.
Again, sorry to be so negative, I'm not trying to insult any of you or your aspirations, but I work closer to the other end of university courses and this course seems like a poor deal.
Cheers,
Gareth.
Sorry to be negative (this is pprune after all!) but after looking over the course syllabus this reeks of a mickey mouse degree. In the first year a compulsory module is PPL theory - sixteen year old kids on the RAF scholarships can ace these exams after a night of cramming. The rest of the three years seems quite close to the ATPL syllabus, but it shouldn't take three years to do something that others do in two whilst working a full-time job.
A key giveaway is that its from the faculty of engineering at a UK university.
You may or not be aware, but a lot of engineering departments are closing or under threat of closure in the UK in this new age of fee based courses. They simply don't attract enough students and therefore course fees to justify their cost to the university. The solution is to invent some highly popular degree (e.g. Football engineering) that is a solid revenue stream.
The department where I work (albeit in the US) started a 'broadcast meteorology' course a few years back which was heavily subscribed and a real money spinner for the university. It was essentially a taught class of PPL Met with 'gee whiz' pictures and touchy-feely theatre classes. The problem came after the first lot had graduated, none of them got jobs in TV/radio since they had a shallow knowledge of meteorology. Instead the jobs went to the normal meteorology graduates. Word got back to the current crop of first year students (undergrads in US don't 'declare their major' until the second year for some odd reason) and enrollment dropped to zero. We no longer have this program.
If you want to study ATPL theory, buy the books and do it in your spare time.
If you want to go to university, pick a 'proper' degree with real career prospects based on your interests and skills.
Don't make the mistake of a half-arsed attempt at both at the same time as there are no short cuts and it'll hurt you in the long run.
G
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Hi,
Just ,my two cents about this matter. I have just graduated form the Leeds course, aviation technology with Pilot studies.
Firstly I a both a student member of IMECHE and RAES, which means that I think it must be accredited in some way as i had to get my application stamped from my school in Leeds.
Secondly, we did study some rubbish that mirrored the ATPLs but we would then sit in thermodynamics, measurement and control, mathematics for process engineers and fluid mechanics lectures with chemical engineers and mining engineers- all doing BEng degrees. We had aerodynamics and computational fluid mechanics by ourselves as this was more relevent to our chosen field.
To call it a mickey mouse degree is slightly harsh dont you think? Either way I would have much rather spent 3 years at Leeds any day over the ghetto that is Salford, I live in south London by the way, and we got our fair share of those.
Ive just started my ATPLs distance learning at london Met, 23rd June, and am sitting my exams on the 4th August. Theres absolutley no way that I could be ready for these exams, Aircraft general, performance and P of F without the invaluable knowledge gained from the 3 year degree I just did. Im working full time as well at the moment so it can be done.
All i can say s dont knock it before youve tried it- go for an open day and check it out, if it feels like a mickey mouse degree then dont do it. oh and i got my PPl with the at the cost of £3300. Bargain eh.
Cheers.
Just ,my two cents about this matter. I have just graduated form the Leeds course, aviation technology with Pilot studies.
Firstly I a both a student member of IMECHE and RAES, which means that I think it must be accredited in some way as i had to get my application stamped from my school in Leeds.
Secondly, we did study some rubbish that mirrored the ATPLs but we would then sit in thermodynamics, measurement and control, mathematics for process engineers and fluid mechanics lectures with chemical engineers and mining engineers- all doing BEng degrees. We had aerodynamics and computational fluid mechanics by ourselves as this was more relevent to our chosen field.
To call it a mickey mouse degree is slightly harsh dont you think? Either way I would have much rather spent 3 years at Leeds any day over the ghetto that is Salford, I live in south London by the way, and we got our fair share of those.
Ive just started my ATPLs distance learning at london Met, 23rd June, and am sitting my exams on the 4th August. Theres absolutley no way that I could be ready for these exams, Aircraft general, performance and P of F without the invaluable knowledge gained from the 3 year degree I just did. Im working full time as well at the moment so it can be done.
All i can say s dont knock it before youve tried it- go for an open day and check it out, if it feels like a mickey mouse degree then dont do it. oh and i got my PPl with the at the cost of £3300. Bargain eh.
Cheers.
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Oh and if it all goes tits up with the pilot career- use the "mickey mouse degree" like one friend of mine who has gone to go work for NATS. 21 years old and on 26K starting salary. Not bad for recent graduate...
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If you have just graduated from Leeds Aviation then well done and you are lucky because the course has changed quite a bit since it first started (for the worse in my view) and the quality of lecturers not what it was as some of best, who actually had flying experiance or have worked for airlines, have now left or not had their posts renewed.
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SW1, first of all congratulations on your degree. I hope that you enjoyed your course and time at uni and wish you the best in the future.
I said it 'reeks' of a M.Mouse degree (note I didn't say it was!) as I work as a researcher at a US university (born, raised and educated in the UK, thankfully) and I see the UK system rapidly driving towards that in the US. At the core of it, US universities are a business, someone told me once it was the second biggest sector of their economy, which seems believable. Anywho, in a lot of instances departments start up fashionable degrees for a quick input of cash, especially if they are struggling with intake which mathematical or natural sciences generally do. Something pilot related seems like a good choice due to the prevelance of 18 yrs willing to give away mum and dads cash on this forum.
As far as I remember all degrees at public universities in the UK are accredited and held to the national standard by some oversight agency, the name of which escapes me, so anyone completing the course will have an accredited degree. However I would be careful when arguing "guilt by association" when trying to promote your individual qualifications. For instance, during my university career I have taken courses alongside chemists, but that doesn't mean I have a chemistry degree or even know anything about chemistry.
I would caution waving membership of 'professional' societies about. Your uni may have rubberstamped something, but that is generally just to say you are full-time student and you get a discount. It turns out for the two you list I am eligable to join; the IMECHE since I have a "UK Maths, Physics or other relevant Science degree" and the RAES because I have an honours degree and 66 quid. I'm not an aeronautical engineer.....
Call me cynical if you like, but I am privvy to lots of what is going on the university side of things and I have seen what can happen to people who go into a poorly organized and poorly taught degree. My comments are trying to help make people aware of the issues surrounding these new and highly specialized subject and make sure they consider what they are going to commit 3 years of their lives and 12,000 quid to. There are lots of choices out there so use your head and heart in the decision.
Cheers,
Gareth.
I said it 'reeks' of a M.Mouse degree (note I didn't say it was!) as I work as a researcher at a US university (born, raised and educated in the UK, thankfully) and I see the UK system rapidly driving towards that in the US. At the core of it, US universities are a business, someone told me once it was the second biggest sector of their economy, which seems believable. Anywho, in a lot of instances departments start up fashionable degrees for a quick input of cash, especially if they are struggling with intake which mathematical or natural sciences generally do. Something pilot related seems like a good choice due to the prevelance of 18 yrs willing to give away mum and dads cash on this forum.
As far as I remember all degrees at public universities in the UK are accredited and held to the national standard by some oversight agency, the name of which escapes me, so anyone completing the course will have an accredited degree. However I would be careful when arguing "guilt by association" when trying to promote your individual qualifications. For instance, during my university career I have taken courses alongside chemists, but that doesn't mean I have a chemistry degree or even know anything about chemistry.
I would caution waving membership of 'professional' societies about. Your uni may have rubberstamped something, but that is generally just to say you are full-time student and you get a discount. It turns out for the two you list I am eligable to join; the IMECHE since I have a "UK Maths, Physics or other relevant Science degree" and the RAES because I have an honours degree and 66 quid. I'm not an aeronautical engineer.....
Call me cynical if you like, but I am privvy to lots of what is going on the university side of things and I have seen what can happen to people who go into a poorly organized and poorly taught degree. My comments are trying to help make people aware of the issues surrounding these new and highly specialized subject and make sure they consider what they are going to commit 3 years of their lives and 12,000 quid to. There are lots of choices out there so use your head and heart in the decision.
Cheers,
Gareth.
Sorry SW1 but you have been misled badly. Whilst Leeds is generally a good university and many of it's courses are accredited by one of more of the Engineering institutions; looking on the ECUK website it is clear that the only RAeS accredited courses at Leeds are Aeronautical and Aerospace Engineering at BEng and MEng and you are highly unlikely to get beyond student membership of either institution without substantial extra study. It's a real degree - in that it's awarded by an accredited degree granting institution, but that doesn't give it any particular credibility within the aircraft industry. Equally I've no doubt that it's helped prepare for the ATPLs - but there are plenty of people who have passed them without more than a couple of GCSEs.
Like gfunk I've spent a lot of time around universities - I teach specialist stuff on several degree programmes, although most of my work is aeronautical research. I'm also a Chartered Engineer and full Member of both the RAeS and IMechE. I agree with him entirely.
G
Like gfunk I've spent a lot of time around universities - I teach specialist stuff on several degree programmes, although most of my work is aeronautical research. I'm also a Chartered Engineer and full Member of both the RAeS and IMechE. I agree with him entirely.
G
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It would be nice to get some recent feedback from those of you on the course now or who have graduated in the past, not those with there own institutes to promote etc.What are you doing now? Did it open any doors? This course has been running from some 4-5 year now so there must be quite a few graduates out there by now. I have heard that there have been some changes to the course and that these have not been popular.
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I'm now on my 3rd year of Av tech and although some parts of the course do seem mikey mouse (they no longer acredit PPL exams alongside the degree) it has given me a much needed deep understanding of practically every aspect of aviation. Although I have to admit it is a little biased towards commercial pilots rather than military.
For one of my modules, a group of 6 of us have to write our own AOC for an airline with the only specification being: jersey airport must be a stop off point.
This has required us to trawl through endless pages of JAR-OPS (and now EU-OPS) which I have to say is mind numbingly boring but the knowledge gained is ESSENTIAL for a top quality pilot (coupled with flying experience of course) which is all I ever want to be.
For one of my modules, a group of 6 of us have to write our own AOC for an airline with the only specification being: jersey airport must be a stop off point.
This has required us to trawl through endless pages of JAR-OPS (and now EU-OPS) which I have to say is mind numbingly boring but the knowledge gained is ESSENTIAL for a top quality pilot (coupled with flying experience of course) which is all I ever want to be.
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Scotteo,
Are you at Salford? One of your lecturers is a buffoon as far as i'm concerned. If he's the one i'm thinking of, he is the one who set you that AOC task, and it's garbage. The idea of forming an airline is nice, but to dictate a route (as the previous year had to do) is just silly. I am friends with someone who had to do this, and they had to run a route from the Isle of Man (which is already oversubscribed) and were told which aircraft type to us (for which performance data was hard to come by). You'll just end up ripping off a suite of manuals from Ryanair/Easyjet/Thomson/*Insert airline here who someone knows works for*
Horgy
Are you at Salford? One of your lecturers is a buffoon as far as i'm concerned. If he's the one i'm thinking of, he is the one who set you that AOC task, and it's garbage. The idea of forming an airline is nice, but to dictate a route (as the previous year had to do) is just silly. I am friends with someone who had to do this, and they had to run a route from the Isle of Man (which is already oversubscribed) and were told which aircraft type to us (for which performance data was hard to come by). You'll just end up ripping off a suite of manuals from Ryanair/Easyjet/Thomson/*Insert airline here who someone knows works for*
Horgy
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Graduated from Leeds BSc Av Technology w/ management (I had my PPL before applying) summer 2006
Now frozen ATPL, RHS on a heavy turboprop flying night freight, and getting paid for it!
Probably wouldnt do the degree again in hindsight (although made a lot of good friends, had a great time at leeds etc) but it HAS got me where i wanted to be.
Form your own opinions.
Matty
Now frozen ATPL, RHS on a heavy turboprop flying night freight, and getting paid for it!
Probably wouldnt do the degree again in hindsight (although made a lot of good friends, had a great time at leeds etc) but it HAS got me where i wanted to be.
Form your own opinions.
Matty
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Graduated Leeds in 2005 (first group of graduates), I've been at Loganair a while which is one of the better gigs around in my opinion. quite a mix of jobs for the others on the course: of the 20 that graduated (not inc. 2 management students)
1 @ Loganair (me, after a couple of seasons instructing SEP)
3 @ BA Cityflyer
1 @ First Choice
1 @ Monarch
1 @ DHL
1 @ Highland Airways
1 @ Flybe
2 in HM Royal air force 1 FJ & 1 Multi
Of the rest, there's 1 in ops at Eastern (doing the training on the side), 1 at Virgin in ops. 2 still plugging away doing training and the rest decided to fly for fun and do other things to pay for it! Quite a varied mix i'm sure you will agree, of those of us who went into further training it was about a 50/50 modular/integrated split. Good times at Leeds were had by all, however we were the guinea pig year and only a small group.
1 @ Loganair (me, after a couple of seasons instructing SEP)
3 @ BA Cityflyer
1 @ First Choice
1 @ Monarch
1 @ DHL
1 @ Highland Airways
1 @ Flybe
2 in HM Royal air force 1 FJ & 1 Multi
Of the rest, there's 1 in ops at Eastern (doing the training on the side), 1 at Virgin in ops. 2 still plugging away doing training and the rest decided to fly for fun and do other things to pay for it! Quite a varied mix i'm sure you will agree, of those of us who went into further training it was about a 50/50 modular/integrated split. Good times at Leeds were had by all, however we were the guinea pig year and only a small group.
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As someone who was involved in setting up the original aviation technolgy degree at Leeds, which was quite a gamble at the time, and running it for a couple of years, it is really good to see these success stories. I wish all you guys and gals all the best. I did enjoy my time teaching subjects like Aircraft Performance and Aviation technology and some of the final year projects were fun too. Drop in and see me at DTV for a chat where I am still helping to train Leeds students with Cleveland Flying School, even if the University no longer requires my teaching services.
