Property v Flight Training (Calculated Risk?)
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Property v Flight Training (Calculated Risk?)
Guys,
I have read many many threads where experienced pilots and aviation wise-heads give warnings to wannabes about there being more wannabes than pilot seats available out there. OAT alone push out more fATPL pilots in the UK per year than there are jobs available per year
not to mention the other Integrated JAA FTO's.
My plan was to either go to the US and get my PPL/Night/HourBuild/MEP then come home and enjoy the flying while I study for my ATPL's via BGS and doing freelance webdesign/development to make ends meet.
Then when the funds allow and the time is right carry out the rest of my training via OAT (WayPoint) or Airways in Exeter. I'd like to keep my professional training done with a good UK school but I'd consider a Euro School like Aerodynamics / Egnatia / Aerofan to save some cash if it didn't make any difference to my job prospects or even go back to the US.
.... But now I am faced with the problem of I am 25 earning enough to just about get my foot on the property ladder. I went to look at an apartment yesterday and at £120k it's just about within my price range. But if I go ahead with this I might just be blowing my chances of ever becoming a professional pilot.
Saving £40k when you have an apartment to run will take a long time for sure. And I'm sure I'd be in my mid 30's before I have that kind of 'spare' cash to invest in myself. I think I'd be 40 years old with 200/300 hours and a fATPL and I'd be up against 25 year olds fresh from an Ab-Inito school like FTE / OAT / CTC
Everybody is telling me to get on the property ladder as it'll only go up in value. And then I have the ratio of pilot vacancies to fATPL students going though my mind and think to myself that I might end up with no Pilot job and no apartment.
So if a friend asked you for advice;
"I have a house deposit/half of my fATPL training but where should I send the money?"
... I suppose I could always go and do my PPL/Night/MEP now and take the 100% mortgage and I'll have maybe 3/4 years to get my ATPL exams done while flying every month or so
My original plan was to go to EFT and come back with 1,500h and a load of JAA/FAA licences including an FI unrestricted.
Thanks in advance guys.
Andy
I have read many many threads where experienced pilots and aviation wise-heads give warnings to wannabes about there being more wannabes than pilot seats available out there. OAT alone push out more fATPL pilots in the UK per year than there are jobs available per year
not to mention the other Integrated JAA FTO's.My plan was to either go to the US and get my PPL/Night/HourBuild/MEP then come home and enjoy the flying while I study for my ATPL's via BGS and doing freelance webdesign/development to make ends meet.
Then when the funds allow and the time is right carry out the rest of my training via OAT (WayPoint) or Airways in Exeter. I'd like to keep my professional training done with a good UK school but I'd consider a Euro School like Aerodynamics / Egnatia / Aerofan to save some cash if it didn't make any difference to my job prospects or even go back to the US.
.... But now I am faced with the problem of I am 25 earning enough to just about get my foot on the property ladder. I went to look at an apartment yesterday and at £120k it's just about within my price range. But if I go ahead with this I might just be blowing my chances of ever becoming a professional pilot.
Saving £40k when you have an apartment to run will take a long time for sure. And I'm sure I'd be in my mid 30's before I have that kind of 'spare' cash to invest in myself. I think I'd be 40 years old with 200/300 hours and a fATPL and I'd be up against 25 year olds fresh from an Ab-Inito school like FTE / OAT / CTC
Everybody is telling me to get on the property ladder as it'll only go up in value. And then I have the ratio of pilot vacancies to fATPL students going though my mind and think to myself that I might end up with no Pilot job and no apartment.
So if a friend asked you for advice;
"I have a house deposit/half of my fATPL training but where should I send the money?"
... I suppose I could always go and do my PPL/Night/MEP now and take the 100% mortgage and I'll have maybe 3/4 years to get my ATPL exams done while flying every month or so
My original plan was to go to EFT and come back with 1,500h and a load of JAA/FAA licences including an FI unrestricted.
Thanks in advance guys.
Andy
Think your worrying a bit to much about the property market at this moment in time esp in South Wales which tends to lag behind the rest of the UK in terms of price rises (cardiff excepted) after all whats 2-3 years out of a lifetime.
If i was doing it all again i would get the PPL Groundschool out of the way this winter ( The club at Cardiff run Groundschool Courses, i take it your local ! ) Then go out to the US in the early spring to do the PPL , easily knocked off in 3 Weeks weather permitting.
Come back to the UK do a bit of flying in the summer , then following winter hourbuild in the US to your 100 hrs maybe combine an IMC with it.
Then do your ATPL Groundschool with BGS 6-9 months combined with a full time job ( Roughly how long i took)
The Hard bit will be the CPL/IR all depends how flexible your workplace/occupation is either way your looking at 2-3 yrs to complete it.
I bit the bullet with my IR and left the safety net of the 9-5 Job to do it.
Good Luck Whatever you choose
Ps would'nt be too bothered getting the 1500 hrs , perhaps money better spent on a Type rating these days.
If i was doing it all again i would get the PPL Groundschool out of the way this winter ( The club at Cardiff run Groundschool Courses, i take it your local ! ) Then go out to the US in the early spring to do the PPL , easily knocked off in 3 Weeks weather permitting.
Come back to the UK do a bit of flying in the summer , then following winter hourbuild in the US to your 100 hrs maybe combine an IMC with it.
Then do your ATPL Groundschool with BGS 6-9 months combined with a full time job ( Roughly how long i took)
The Hard bit will be the CPL/IR all depends how flexible your workplace/occupation is either way your looking at 2-3 yrs to complete it.
I bit the bullet with my IR and left the safety net of the 9-5 Job to do it.
Good Luck Whatever you choose
Ps would'nt be too bothered getting the 1500 hrs , perhaps money better spent on a Type rating these days.
Last edited by Right Touch; 22nd May 2007 at 00:32.
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no brainer.
Buy the property.
I did my CPL/IR when I was 35/36 and am now flying 757's for a living, and I did it with my own money, because I got on the property ladder when i was 25.
I did not give up my previous career until I had the airline job. I did all my training part time with my income still coming in, including the IR training.
If it were me I would buy the property. Get the PPL if you've got the money and enjoy private flying for a few years. Follow your dreams, yes, but not at the expense of the rest of your life!
Buy the property.
I did my CPL/IR when I was 35/36 and am now flying 757's for a living, and I did it with my own money, because I got on the property ladder when i was 25.
I did not give up my previous career until I had the airline job. I did all my training part time with my income still coming in, including the IR training.
If it were me I would buy the property. Get the PPL if you've got the money and enjoy private flying for a few years. Follow your dreams, yes, but not at the expense of the rest of your life!
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Thanks for the comments guys! They all make sense and I guess from Alex's experience in getting the CPL/IR when he was 35 means I won’t be too old.
The apartment is from a friend so it'll be the right price. I already have a ball park figure that I am happy to pay for this 2 x double bedroom (1 with en-suite), bathroom, big living area and complete with a view. Its 4 years old and the prices have been rising very well due to being a catchments area (ChurchVillage) and only being 20 minutes from the city centre where house prices are crazy as Right Touch commented.
Flying Touareg - That is/was the plan. Pay my money for the training that will get me the RHS and over time the house will come and it'll be a nice house at that. It's just a big 'IF' I get that job - otherwise I'll be struggling to get on the property ladder at 30
My back up career is a good one so if all else fails it's not like I am going to be in financial trouble in all honesty. .Net programmers UK average earnings are between 35k and 45k but I think I have another 2 years before I hit £35k-£40k due to needing more experience on the job.
Right Touch I think I'll take advice from you plan there. I may go 100% or 95% mortgage and the money I had for the PPL/Night/MEP/Hour building can go on PPL/Night/IMC for now and I can build my hours from CWL.
The 1,500hrs were from instructing and not hour building by the way (APP Multi at EFT - http://www.flyeft.com/library/ME-APP.pdf)
Thanks for the advise guys.
The apartment is from a friend so it'll be the right price. I already have a ball park figure that I am happy to pay for this 2 x double bedroom (1 with en-suite), bathroom, big living area and complete with a view. Its 4 years old and the prices have been rising very well due to being a catchments area (ChurchVillage) and only being 20 minutes from the city centre where house prices are crazy as Right Touch commented.
Flying Touareg - That is/was the plan. Pay my money for the training that will get me the RHS and over time the house will come and it'll be a nice house at that. It's just a big 'IF' I get that job - otherwise I'll be struggling to get on the property ladder at 30
My back up career is a good one so if all else fails it's not like I am going to be in financial trouble in all honesty. .Net programmers UK average earnings are between 35k and 45k but I think I have another 2 years before I hit £35k-£40k due to needing more experience on the job.
Right Touch I think I'll take advice from you plan there. I may go 100% or 95% mortgage and the money I had for the PPL/Night/MEP/Hour building can go on PPL/Night/IMC for now and I can build my hours from CWL.
The 1,500hrs were from instructing and not hour building by the way (APP Multi at EFT - http://www.flyeft.com/library/ME-APP.pdf)
Thanks for the advise guys.
If you buy a house now you will be buying just as a house price crash begins.
People predict it all the time so many people don't listen. But right now is a great time to be a renter, not an owner.
Property tips on PPRuNe - time to get out!
WWW
People predict it all the time so many people don't listen. But right now is a great time to be a renter, not an owner.
Property tips on PPRuNe - time to get out!
WWW
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If you buy a house now you will be buying just as a house price crash begins. Right now is a great time to be a renter, not an owner.
. With higher interest rates coming into play soon it seems that if anybody wants to sell they will have to bring down the asking price to sell to the buyers who are limited thanks to the interest rates.I guess a drop could happen so it might be worth waiting for 6/9 months.
Just saw a CAP flying very low over my works and wish I was up there.
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Everything happens in cycles...
House prices just about to crash and if you buy now... your very silly!
Wait about 6months then buy buy buy.... eventually the graph shows that it will rise again!
House prices just about to crash and if you buy now... your very silly!
Wait about 6months then buy buy buy.... eventually the graph shows that it will rise again!
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If there is a house price "crash" in the next 12 months I will eat my pants. Yum
There will be a slowing down but if you can buy now and you have found the right property then do it or you will be waiting and waiting and waiting and still undecided what to do with your money and life.
At 30 start the training part time whilst forking out for the mortgage and then flog it when you have to move to wherever the airline wants you.
Good luck
MFWF
There will be a slowing down but if you can buy now and you have found the right property then do it or you will be waiting and waiting and waiting and still undecided what to do with your money and life.
At 30 start the training part time whilst forking out for the mortgage and then flog it when you have to move to wherever the airline wants you.
Good luck
MFWF
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Alpha Male,
Nobody can predict if a 35 year old will be attractive to an airline 10 years from now. I don't know if AlexL waited 10 years, or even more, but had he found a way to train at your age, he would have earned a great deal of money as a pilot by now. Delays in getting your fATPL have a lost opportunity cost that should be weighed in the balance. On the other hand, many people fund their training either with home equity loans or by cashing out home equity. It's a tough decision and the best route is probably somewhere in the middle, between the lowest cost and most risk averse route (waiting 5-10 years until you've saved all the cash needed) and the highest cost route with largest risk (integrated with a large loan).
I remember seeing a post a while back by someone who spent £69K and took four years to gain his fATPL by Modular training. That is not a typical Modular budget by any means, but even the most expensive Integrated course would have been less than that if started four years ago. More important than what he spent the slower pay as you go way, is the fact that he could have been in an airline job sooner and probably for two thirds the price if he had sorted the money first and trained Modular full time. The difficulty with pay as you go while working is that you can't usually avail yourself of lower prices in the US. Even if sorting the funds first and training full time Modular had required a £20-25K loan, it might still weigh up better by getting one to the job sooner. The same argument might even justify full time ground school in six months over 9-12 months for distance learning. Good luck with your decision.
Nobody can predict if a 35 year old will be attractive to an airline 10 years from now. I don't know if AlexL waited 10 years, or even more, but had he found a way to train at your age, he would have earned a great deal of money as a pilot by now. Delays in getting your fATPL have a lost opportunity cost that should be weighed in the balance. On the other hand, many people fund their training either with home equity loans or by cashing out home equity. It's a tough decision and the best route is probably somewhere in the middle, between the lowest cost and most risk averse route (waiting 5-10 years until you've saved all the cash needed) and the highest cost route with largest risk (integrated with a large loan).
I remember seeing a post a while back by someone who spent £69K and took four years to gain his fATPL by Modular training. That is not a typical Modular budget by any means, but even the most expensive Integrated course would have been less than that if started four years ago. More important than what he spent the slower pay as you go way, is the fact that he could have been in an airline job sooner and probably for two thirds the price if he had sorted the money first and trained Modular full time. The difficulty with pay as you go while working is that you can't usually avail yourself of lower prices in the US. Even if sorting the funds first and training full time Modular had required a £20-25K loan, it might still weigh up better by getting one to the job sooner. The same argument might even justify full time ground school in six months over 9-12 months for distance learning. Good luck with your decision.
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How about if the other option ab-initio course(where you have a guaranteed job after training)?
Adios - good comments made there. It's a very tough decision and it's hard to estimate the time of getting a job and the estimated earning potential then (as a pilot) and the potential earnings as a web developer in the near future.
I'd like to become a pilot before I am 30 but I am still looking to develop my career in programming just incase it doesn't work out too well getting the RHS job.
I guess I'd have the money to do all my training in Spring 2008 but no house and not much possesions.
Thanks for the comments guys - I'm sure I am not the 1st person to have to make this decision.
Brain says - Property
Heart says - Pilot Training
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We (a couple) purchased our house last year for a £215,000. 6 months of hard manual labour, and with the help and efforts of family the house has been totally renovated at minimal cost. New value quoted at £300,000+.
House price crash? By more than £10,000? Really? It's the dream of certain economists. Where I live, the Olympics have yet to pass
Get on the property ladder dude! People have been predicting a crash for the last 10 years. In that time I know several people who at age 30 are now owning 2 properties and paying off both mortgages with one rental income. They do help, them renters!
House price crash? By more than £10,000? Really? It's the dream of certain economists. Where I live, the Olympics have yet to pass
Get on the property ladder dude! People have been predicting a crash for the last 10 years. In that time I know several people who at age 30 are now owning 2 properties and paying off both mortgages with one rental income. They do help, them renters!
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AlphaMale
The NetJets scheme is currently open to new applications - http://www.oxfordaviation.net/netjets/nj_info.htm
The NetJets scheme is currently open to new applications - http://www.oxfordaviation.net/netjets/nj_info.htm
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Just some food for though.... my old man flew for BA from striaight out of school unitl he retired 3 years ago. He said he enyoyed the first 15-20 yrs... new aircraft to fly every few years.... new places to visit.... command etc. always progressing and moving onto something new.
However he said the the second 15-20yrs it was just a job, novelty value well and truely gone and he looked forward to retirement. I guess everyone is different but why the rush?? 30yrs old doen't appear to be too late based on most commentary on here.
However he said the the second 15-20yrs it was just a job, novelty value well and truely gone and he looked forward to retirement. I guess everyone is different but why the rush?? 30yrs old doen't appear to be too late based on most commentary on here.
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At 25 you should still be okay and dare I say it have enough time to get your foot on the property ladder. Even with a prospective downturn in the property markets at least you will have acquired something and if nothing else you will have already acquired an asset for life. Why not purchase it now and then rent it out to tennats while you share with your understanding other half (girlfriend/wife/mistress/all 
) or failing that move in with your parents. The mortgage will reduce in a couple of years whilst you concentrate on spending your money on pilot training.
Don't forget that the aviation aspect of this argument is far more riskier and unstable than the property market even during leaner times. Once you're qualified you're going to want a property anyway so why not go ahead and get it now whilst you still have the chance, remember you can sell it at any time too should circumstances dictate.
It's a touch distressing when people are blinded by the prospect of a career at the expense of all other opportunities in life. With clever and realistic planning you can have your cake and eat it too. See if you can also get as many people around you to help you'll be surprised how many options that gives rise to.
Anyway best of luck with whatever you decide.
) or failing that move in with your parents. The mortgage will reduce in a couple of years whilst you concentrate on spending your money on pilot training. Don't forget that the aviation aspect of this argument is far more riskier and unstable than the property market even during leaner times. Once you're qualified you're going to want a property anyway so why not go ahead and get it now whilst you still have the chance, remember you can sell it at any time too should circumstances dictate.
It's a touch distressing when people are blinded by the prospect of a career at the expense of all other opportunities in life. With clever and realistic planning you can have your cake and eat it too. See if you can also get as many people around you to help you'll be surprised how many options that gives rise to.
Anyway best of luck with whatever you decide.
Last edited by boogie-nicey; 24th May 2007 at 09:07.
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Guys I'll like to thank you for your comments - they have been a great help!
How did I miss this?!? ... Sounds like a really good opportunity with a great company (from what I have read).
I don't think it's a case of rushing to get the pilot job so I can fly for the next 30+ years but if I can apply at 30 it'll give me a better chance than if I am 45 that's all. I'd also like to be happy with my career before making big decisions like starting a family for example.
I think I will put in an offer for the apartment and if I fail to get in with NetJets then I'll simply do the PPL for now and enjoy my GA flying then release some equity in the flat to fund my professional training in 2/3 years time and rent the apartment while I carry out my CPL/IR/MCC training.
That way if my training doesn't lead me to a pilot job I will already be on the property ladder.
Thanks again guys - no silly posts and great advice from different angles.
Andy.
The NetJets scheme is currently open to new applications - http://www.oxfordaviation.net/netjets/nj_info.htm
I guess everyone is different but why the rush?? 30yrs old doen't appear to be too late based on most commentary on here.
I think I will put in an offer for the apartment and if I fail to get in with NetJets then I'll simply do the PPL for now and enjoy my GA flying then release some equity in the flat to fund my professional training in 2/3 years time and rent the apartment while I carry out my CPL/IR/MCC training.
That way if my training doesn't lead me to a pilot job I will already be on the property ladder.
Thanks again guys - no silly posts and great advice from different angles.
Andy.
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Have you considered CTC?
If successful you'd be in the RHS of an airline in around 18 months.
You could buy a property once you find out where you are based. Moving house costs a lot of money, and if the predictions are correct and the housing market does collapse you could find yourself in negative equity. Negative equity is not a major problem if you are happy to stay put and wait for the houses value to rise again, but if you find yourself based at Gatwick and need to sell up and move that could also cost you lots of money.
I think you have to ask what is more important to you, getting on the property ladder or getting into the RHS of an airline. If you delay getting on the property ladder it could mean that in 10 years time you are not as well off as you could have been, however that needs to be balanced against your earlier promotion to captaincy. If you delay getting into the airline industry it could be that the greens get their way, or there's another massive terrorist attack and you may never make that right hand seat. There's lots of people that say you've got years to fly planes, but who knows what this business is going to be like in 20 years time. Maybe the aircraft will fly themselves and they'll only need a single pilot just in case the automatics go wrong! What if your health takes a dive in a few years time? I’d obviously be very unhappy if I lost my medical, however at least I can say I’ve done this fantastic job and then go back to my old job. I’d be gutted if a waited 2 years to make myself a bit more money and then found that I lost my medical just prior to completing my training.
I say, get into the business as soon as possible, and then work out what career change you want in 15 years time once you're bored of flying.
Just my thoughts. Taking cover now!
SW
If successful you'd be in the RHS of an airline in around 18 months.
You could buy a property once you find out where you are based. Moving house costs a lot of money, and if the predictions are correct and the housing market does collapse you could find yourself in negative equity. Negative equity is not a major problem if you are happy to stay put and wait for the houses value to rise again, but if you find yourself based at Gatwick and need to sell up and move that could also cost you lots of money.
I think you have to ask what is more important to you, getting on the property ladder or getting into the RHS of an airline. If you delay getting on the property ladder it could mean that in 10 years time you are not as well off as you could have been, however that needs to be balanced against your earlier promotion to captaincy. If you delay getting into the airline industry it could be that the greens get their way, or there's another massive terrorist attack and you may never make that right hand seat. There's lots of people that say you've got years to fly planes, but who knows what this business is going to be like in 20 years time. Maybe the aircraft will fly themselves and they'll only need a single pilot just in case the automatics go wrong! What if your health takes a dive in a few years time? I’d obviously be very unhappy if I lost my medical, however at least I can say I’ve done this fantastic job and then go back to my old job. I’d be gutted if a waited 2 years to make myself a bit more money and then found that I lost my medical just prior to completing my training.
I say, get into the business as soon as possible, and then work out what career change you want in 15 years time once you're bored of flying.
Just my thoughts. Taking cover now!
SW
Educated Hillbilly
What you forget is Alphamale, is between 2001 and 2007 house prices have effectively doubled, hence any one whom purchased property before 2001 would easily be able to remortgage to fund flight training. However even if property prices don't fall, the rate of price increase has now slowed, hence prices will at least stabilise, so it would be wise to say that you are now unlikey to see a significant rise in your property value in the next five years that would give you the equity to remortgage in order to fund flight training.
I was in a similar situation to yourself a few years back and opted for the flight training, for me that was a mistake as I missed out on the housing boom, however as said the boom has already happened, you will not see your property rise significantly in value. Also with low inflation rates, inflation will no longer errode your mortgage.
Also if you are "mortgaging" yourself to the limit for a 130,000 mortgage then I would say the gamble of investing in a career that could (not necessarily) improve your earning potential would have to be worth it. Rememeber with a repayments mortgage in the early years of a mortgage you will find most of your repayment is covering interest rather than paying off the capital, hence in five years you may not gain that much equity. Also you will find that the average rent for a one or two bedroom flat will rarely cover the mortgage on a place if buying at todays prices.
I was in a similar situation to yourself a few years back and opted for the flight training, for me that was a mistake as I missed out on the housing boom, however as said the boom has already happened, you will not see your property rise significantly in value. Also with low inflation rates, inflation will no longer errode your mortgage.
Also if you are "mortgaging" yourself to the limit for a 130,000 mortgage then I would say the gamble of investing in a career that could (not necessarily) improve your earning potential would have to be worth it. Rememeber with a repayments mortgage in the early years of a mortgage you will find most of your repayment is covering interest rather than paying off the capital, hence in five years you may not gain that much equity. Also you will find that the average rent for a one or two bedroom flat will rarely cover the mortgage on a place if buying at todays prices.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 24th May 2007 at 08:26.
Buying a house now might well put you into so much negative equity by next years that your dreams of flying training can never come true.
Given the life choices of either buying a first house OR spending a chunk on flying training then I would go with the latter.
I'm so confident of a house price correction that I've sold to move into rented. There are so many properties To Let that rents are lower on my street than they were 6 years ago.
40% of all fixed rate mortgages will come out of their fixed rate by October. Most were two year fixes made at rates around 4.5%. My Mum works for a well known bank. The combination of loans, credit cards and massive monthly mortgage commitments takes her right back to 1989... With mortgages of 5 times income and lie-to-buy self certs it won't take 10%
Interest Rates this time. 6% will be plenty.
This will have a significant impact on Wannabes. By this time next year you may well find the numbers enrolling for flying training at all levels will be down sharply. I estimate at least half of all flying training is funded by Mortgage Equity Release.
WWW
Given the life choices of either buying a first house OR spending a chunk on flying training then I would go with the latter.
I'm so confident of a house price correction that I've sold to move into rented. There are so many properties To Let that rents are lower on my street than they were 6 years ago.
40% of all fixed rate mortgages will come out of their fixed rate by October. Most were two year fixes made at rates around 4.5%. My Mum works for a well known bank. The combination of loans, credit cards and massive monthly mortgage commitments takes her right back to 1989... With mortgages of 5 times income and lie-to-buy self certs it won't take 10%
Interest Rates this time. 6% will be plenty.
This will have a significant impact on Wannabes. By this time next year you may well find the numbers enrolling for flying training at all levels will be down sharply. I estimate at least half of all flying training is funded by Mortgage Equity Release.
WWW