How long are your ATPL ground exams valid?
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To my understanding there is a period of 18 months, in which you have to complete all 14 exams. It starts from the period when you took your first exam.
Once completed, you have 36 months from your last period to complete the practical requirements.
Don't think it has changed recently.
Once completed, you have 36 months from your last period to complete the practical requirements.
Don't think it has changed recently.
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Based on your data, Feb07 should be the exam expiry date so get the CPL done before that and you have the same period to get an IR else the exam credits for the IR part lapse, hence to do an IR you would need to study and sit the 7 IR papers again.
So get flying!
So get flying!
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How long are your ATPL ground exams valid?
Hi Folks!
Question:
I had my theory ATP exam succesfully completed on 1 Jan 2003.
How many year do I have to collect the minimum hours to complete my practical exam?
Someone told me that I have 7 years of time....but I would like to check it on an official jaa doc.
Can someone gimme this info?
MANY THANKS
Rubencito
Question:
I had my theory ATP exam succesfully completed on 1 Jan 2003.
How many year do I have to collect the minimum hours to complete my practical exam?
Someone told me that I have 7 years of time....but I would like to check it on an official jaa doc.
Can someone gimme this info?
MANY THANKS
Rubencito
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36 months
JAR–FCL 1.485 Responsibilities of the
applicant
(a) A pass in the theoretical knowledge
examinations given in accordance with JAR–FCL
1.490 will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(A)
or IR(A) during the 36 months from the date of
gaining a Pass in all the required examination
papers.
(b) Provided that an IR(A) is obtained in
accordance with (a) above, a pass in the ATPL(A)
theoretical knowledge examination will remain
valid for a period of 7 years from the last validity
date of the IR(A) entered in the CPL(A) for the
issuance of an ATPL(A).
Under JAA rules you have to complete both IR and CPL practical exams within 36 months otherwise you forfeit the fATPL. The fATPL status can be maintained by renewing the IR on a 7 year cycle
Why all that knowledge is deemed to disappear so quickly has never been explained lthough the regulatory authorities make a large wedge of cash from the MCQ tests that they host
applicant
(a) A pass in the theoretical knowledge
examinations given in accordance with JAR–FCL
1.490 will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(A)
or IR(A) during the 36 months from the date of
gaining a Pass in all the required examination
papers.
(b) Provided that an IR(A) is obtained in
accordance with (a) above, a pass in the ATPL(A)
theoretical knowledge examination will remain
valid for a period of 7 years from the last validity
date of the IR(A) entered in the CPL(A) for the
issuance of an ATPL(A).
Under JAA rules you have to complete both IR and CPL practical exams within 36 months otherwise you forfeit the fATPL. The fATPL status can be maintained by renewing the IR on a 7 year cycle
Why all that knowledge is deemed to disappear so quickly has never been explained lthough the regulatory authorities make a large wedge of cash from the MCQ tests that they host
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Speaking as one who has fallen foul of this by only completing a CPL prior to expiry of my ATPL theory its definitely a situation to avoid !
Bad news is that even if you have a CPL there is currently no upgrade course to refresh you theory to ATPL level, according to the CAA there isn't going to be either! Basically you have to start from scratch again and redo all 14 exams.
I did think I'd spotted a loophole that allowed you to work / fly as an FO with a CPL/ IR but not frozen ATPL, but have been informed in no uncertain terms by the CAA that this is not possible and a Multi crew rating cannot be added without having current and valid ATPL Theory.
They cant however explain the reason for the expiry of the ATPL Theory, why there wont be an upgrade course from CPL to ATPL theory or why you cant fly multicrew even though you hold a CPL/IR and have done ATPL theory in the past yet its expired. (This is on the basis that you redo the IR only exams to give you CPL/Multi IR MCC etc but not with a frozen ATPL)
I smell another money making scam.....
Would be interested to hear from any others that have expired ATPL theory and only a CPL or IR. I know of several others already and feel this is something that's been overlooked and needs more pressure on them to resolve.
Regards
UA
Bad news is that even if you have a CPL there is currently no upgrade course to refresh you theory to ATPL level, according to the CAA there isn't going to be either! Basically you have to start from scratch again and redo all 14 exams.
I did think I'd spotted a loophole that allowed you to work / fly as an FO with a CPL/ IR but not frozen ATPL, but have been informed in no uncertain terms by the CAA that this is not possible and a Multi crew rating cannot be added without having current and valid ATPL Theory.
They cant however explain the reason for the expiry of the ATPL Theory, why there wont be an upgrade course from CPL to ATPL theory or why you cant fly multicrew even though you hold a CPL/IR and have done ATPL theory in the past yet its expired. (This is on the basis that you redo the IR only exams to give you CPL/Multi IR MCC etc but not with a frozen ATPL)
I smell another money making scam.....
Would be interested to hear from any others that have expired ATPL theory and only a CPL or IR. I know of several others already and feel this is something that's been overlooked and needs more pressure on them to resolve.
Regards
UA
Last edited by Unusual Attitude; 9th Mar 2006 at 14:25.
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Interesting
An applicant for the first type rating for a MPA shall
provide evidence that the following requirements have
been met:-
a) have completed at least 100 hours as
pilot-in-command of aeroplanes;
b) hold a current and valid multi-engine Instrument
Rating (Aeroplanes). This is only a requirement for
an initial MPA type rating and not subsequent type
ratings;
c) hold a certificate of satisfactory completion of a
multi-crew co-operation (MCC) course (this
requirement is not applicable to those who have
attended a TRTO course which includes MCC).
For full details on the MCC Course and MCC
credits can be found at Section F10.
d) have passed the professional flight crew
examinations at ATPL level.
(PLEASE NOTE THE ABSENCE OF A TIME LIMIT ON THIS)
provide evidence that the following requirements have
been met:-
a) have completed at least 100 hours as
pilot-in-command of aeroplanes;
b) hold a current and valid multi-engine Instrument
Rating (Aeroplanes). This is only a requirement for
an initial MPA type rating and not subsequent type
ratings;
c) hold a certificate of satisfactory completion of a
multi-crew co-operation (MCC) course (this
requirement is not applicable to those who have
attended a TRTO course which includes MCC).
For full details on the MCC Course and MCC
credits can be found at Section F10.
d) have passed the professional flight crew
examinations at ATPL level.
(PLEASE NOTE THE ABSENCE OF A TIME LIMIT ON THIS)
Last edited by RVR800; 9th Mar 2006 at 13:13.
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Its a mess
What that means is that to do the type rating one only needs to have passed the ATPL exams (no time limits)
Of course to do the IR you might want to wait until they have made the IR exams 'more accessible'
They cant stop you if you get the IR MCC; can they?
This loophole exists cos there will be loads of guys with 36 plus month IR issues on the CAAs books with NATIONAL atpl exams passes some of them fly with the airlines!! Why do I say this well the time limit used to be 60 months so there will be some thats for sure.
I smell an FOIA request coming on!
It's all like UA says, a money making scam, why do these exams expire so quickly and why is the training not (as in so many other professions) integrated? - one simple exam like the FAA IR would be a help.
They are looking at this
Why does one have to do CPL NAV and IR NAV its crazy crazy crazy they are all mad - too much time spent by the fire drinking port in flash hotels spending our money methinks.....
If they want to make the IR accessible just allow the folks who fly all over Europe safely with FAA IRs to get a straight JAA licence swop and save them the trouble - theyve already admitted there are no safety concerns with those guys. They wont do that of course - cos of the vested interest issues. The whole thing is vested interest dressed up as safety - no consultation with paying passengers or pilots under training only with the traing providers who say ... no change...
Of course to do the IR you might want to wait until they have made the IR exams 'more accessible'
They cant stop you if you get the IR MCC; can they?
This loophole exists cos there will be loads of guys with 36 plus month IR issues on the CAAs books with NATIONAL atpl exams passes some of them fly with the airlines!! Why do I say this well the time limit used to be 60 months so there will be some thats for sure.
I smell an FOIA request coming on!
It's all like UA says, a money making scam, why do these exams expire so quickly and why is the training not (as in so many other professions) integrated? - one simple exam like the FAA IR would be a help.
They are looking at this
Why does one have to do CPL NAV and IR NAV its crazy crazy crazy they are all mad - too much time spent by the fire drinking port in flash hotels spending our money methinks.....
If they want to make the IR accessible just allow the folks who fly all over Europe safely with FAA IRs to get a straight JAA licence swop and save them the trouble - theyve already admitted there are no safety concerns with those guys. They wont do that of course - cos of the vested interest issues. The whole thing is vested interest dressed up as safety - no consultation with paying passengers or pilots under training only with the traing providers who say ... no change...
Last edited by RVR800; 9th Mar 2006 at 13:20.
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Indeed, that's taken from Lasors 2006 which is what I quoted back to the CAA. They however then informed me that Lasors is a simplified version of the full documents which they then referred me back to which basically state that the theory must be valid (Very different wording from Lasors indeed). I have the full e-mail from the CAA at home on my PC which I'll post for your interest later. It would seem therefore that you cant entirely rely on Lasors !!
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From JAA web site
d) have passed the professional flight crew
examinations at ATPL level.---------------------> MEANS ON JAA WEB SITE
(a) Course. An applicant for an ATPL(A) shall
have received theoretical knowledge instruction on
an approved course at an approved flying training
organisation (FTO) [ ]. An applicant who has not
received the theoretical knowledge instruction
during an integrated course of training shall take the
course set out in Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.285.
(b) Examination. An applicant for an
ATPL(A) shall have demonstrated a level of
knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted
to the holder of an ATPL(A) and in accordance
with the requirements in JAR–FCL 1 (Aeroplane)
Subpart J.
[Amdt. 1, 01.06.00; Amdt. 3, 01.07.03]
They havent explained it that well and I think that is to account for people
who (I know) didnt meet the 36 month rule when it was 60 months
Why incidentally does the JAA ATPL knowledge disappear from pilots brains
faster than the national ATPL knowledge?
Maybe its because you can buy the question bank so its easier?
examinations at ATPL level.---------------------> MEANS ON JAA WEB SITE
(a) Course. An applicant for an ATPL(A) shall
have received theoretical knowledge instruction on
an approved course at an approved flying training
organisation (FTO) [ ]. An applicant who has not
received the theoretical knowledge instruction
during an integrated course of training shall take the
course set out in Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.285.
(b) Examination. An applicant for an
ATPL(A) shall have demonstrated a level of
knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted
to the holder of an ATPL(A) and in accordance
with the requirements in JAR–FCL 1 (Aeroplane)
Subpart J.
[Amdt. 1, 01.06.00; Amdt. 3, 01.07.03]
They havent explained it that well and I think that is to account for people
who (I know) didnt meet the 36 month rule when it was 60 months
Why incidentally does the JAA ATPL knowledge disappear from pilots brains
faster than the national ATPL knowledge?
Maybe its because you can buy the question bank so its easier?
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The other interesting thing about all this is that Airline pillots dont even need the single crew IR anyway so they cannot specify (at least explicitly) for the Type rating.
Most let it lapse
Its seems crazy that airline pilot licence exam credits are set against a rating that is not needed by airline pilots
Like I say they are quite mad....
They in essence want you to spend your money quickly..
Most let it lapse
Its seems crazy that airline pilot licence exam credits are set against a rating that is not needed by airline pilots
Like I say they are quite mad....
They in essence want you to spend your money quickly..
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Indeed RVR, utter madness....
If as they claim all this is in the interest of safety then what about the following case (which I suspect is fairly common):-
Pilots A & B
------------
Pilot A does his ATPL theory, CPL & IR but then doesn't fly again for 6 years.
Pilot B does his ATPL theory, CPL & FI, instructs virtually every day and 6 years later has over 1500hours TT.
Who would have the best theoretical knowledge after the 6 years? According the CAA it would be Pilot A even though he's not been near an aircraft for 6 years. Is he the 'Safer' of the 2 pilots ? I think not !!
If both these chaps then decide they want to go fly for an airline, Pilot A has to do a few hours flying to refresh his IR and bingo he's good to go.
Pilot B however now has expired ATPL theory and is deemed to have a lower lever of knowledge than Pilot A who hasn't flown for 6 years, despite Pilot B flying every day.
Pilot B is therefore forced once again to spend 6-9 months of his life re-sitting all 14 ATPL exams before he can do his IR and go fly multicrew.
Make sense ? It does if you live in JAR land........
If as they claim all this is in the interest of safety then what about the following case (which I suspect is fairly common):-
Pilots A & B
------------
Pilot A does his ATPL theory, CPL & IR but then doesn't fly again for 6 years.
Pilot B does his ATPL theory, CPL & FI, instructs virtually every day and 6 years later has over 1500hours TT.
Who would have the best theoretical knowledge after the 6 years? According the CAA it would be Pilot A even though he's not been near an aircraft for 6 years. Is he the 'Safer' of the 2 pilots ? I think not !!
If both these chaps then decide they want to go fly for an airline, Pilot A has to do a few hours flying to refresh his IR and bingo he's good to go.
Pilot B however now has expired ATPL theory and is deemed to have a lower lever of knowledge than Pilot A who hasn't flown for 6 years, despite Pilot B flying every day.
Pilot B is therefore forced once again to spend 6-9 months of his life re-sitting all 14 ATPL exams before he can do his IR and go fly multicrew.
Make sense ? It does if you live in JAR land........
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Yes; the only thing is, that the re-passing of the ATPL exams is unlikey to present as much of a problem as it was last time, but nevertheless a real pain
The difference these days is that most of the question bank is available electronically, and so it would be a simple matter of learning all that stuff again....
Here are some questions to get you in the mood
What does the abbreviation "INS" mean:
A International NOTAM system
B International navigation service
C Inertial navigation system
D Instrument navigation system
What is the correct way of spelling out FRI-VOR in a radio message ?
A Fox Romeo Yankee - VOR
B Fox Romeo India - VOR
C Foxtrot Romeo India - VOR
D Foxtrot Romeo Juliett - VOR
What is the correct way of transmitting the number 118.1 to indicate a frequency ?
A one one eight decimal one
B one eighteen one
C one one eight one
D one one eight point one
Thanks to the JAA for their help in compiling my interesting mini-test on IFR-COMMS
There is another one for VFR its a completely different syllabus - its so different dont
you know
You will be delighted to hear that you are exempt VFR COMMS and so you know the answer to
How shall a pilot ask for a QFE ?
A request Queen Fox Easy
B request Quebec Foxtrot Echo
C request Quebec Fox Echo
D request Quebec Fox Easy
The difference these days is that most of the question bank is available electronically, and so it would be a simple matter of learning all that stuff again....
Here are some questions to get you in the mood
What does the abbreviation "INS" mean:
A International NOTAM system
B International navigation service
C Inertial navigation system
D Instrument navigation system
What is the correct way of spelling out FRI-VOR in a radio message ?
A Fox Romeo Yankee - VOR
B Fox Romeo India - VOR
C Foxtrot Romeo India - VOR
D Foxtrot Romeo Juliett - VOR
What is the correct way of transmitting the number 118.1 to indicate a frequency ?
A one one eight decimal one
B one eighteen one
C one one eight one
D one one eight point one
Thanks to the JAA for their help in compiling my interesting mini-test on IFR-COMMS
There is another one for VFR its a completely different syllabus - its so different dont
you know
You will be delighted to hear that you are exempt VFR COMMS and so you know the answer to
How shall a pilot ask for a QFE ?
A request Queen Fox Easy
B request Quebec Foxtrot Echo
C request Quebec Fox Echo
D request Quebec Fox Easy
Last edited by RVR800; 9th Mar 2006 at 14:54.
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Those exams were indeed both vastly different and extremely taxing, well must have been since I got 100% for VFR comms and only 98% for IFR comms.
Still look on the bright side, I'm led to believe that having a CPL means I do get the exemption of not having to sit one exam....VFR comms !!!
So basically the only theoretical difference between a PPL holder and a CPL holder is that the CPL holders RT is obviously better....!!!
Makes perfect sense......?!?!?!
Still look on the bright side, I'm led to believe that having a CPL means I do get the exemption of not having to sit one exam....VFR comms !!!
So basically the only theoretical difference between a PPL holder and a CPL holder is that the CPL holders RT is obviously better....!!!
Makes perfect sense......?!?!?!
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Relevant
We will be able to use the following knowledge to more greatly understand the predicament that we face
Stress is a frequent aspect of the pilot's job. Under which of the following circumstances does it occur?
1. Stress occurs whenever the pilot must revise his plan of action and does not immediately have a solution
2. Stress occurs with inexperienced pilots when the situational demands exceed their individual capabilities
3. Stress occurs if a pilot is convinced that he will not be able to find a solution for the problem he/she faces.
A 1 and 2 are correct, 3 is false
B 1, 2 and 3 are correct
C 1, 2, 3 and 4 are correct
D Only 1 is false
Stress is a frequent aspect of the pilot's job. Under which of the following circumstances does it occur?
1. Stress occurs whenever the pilot must revise his plan of action and does not immediately have a solution
2. Stress occurs with inexperienced pilots when the situational demands exceed their individual capabilities
3. Stress occurs if a pilot is convinced that he will not be able to find a solution for the problem he/she faces.
A 1 and 2 are correct, 3 is false
B 1, 2 and 3 are correct
C 1, 2, 3 and 4 are correct
D Only 1 is false
Thread Starter
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Ok, here is the correspondance I had with the CAA regarding being able to fly Multicrew with a CPL/IR MCC but not Forzen ATPL:-
My last e-mail to the CAA:-
"Good afternoon XXXXX and a happy new year to you.
You may remember that I was in correspondence with yourself regarding
expired ATPL exams and the possibility of being able to fly a multi crew
aircraft with a CPL/IR and expired ATPL theory to which you responded it
would not be possible.
After studying the Lasors 2006, discussion with a number of flight schools &
indeed a local airline I have ties with, I cannot however see how this can
be the case?
In Lasors 2006 section F4.1 Multi-Pilot Aeroplane Type rating,
pre-requisites for training as given as:-
a) Have completed at least 100 hours as pilot-in command.
- This is fine as I have in excess of double this time.
B) Hold a valid multi-engine Instrument rating.
- This would be the case as I would have resat the IR Theory only.
C) Hold a certificate of completion of an MCC course
- This would also be the case, there is no requirement for ATPL theory
within the MCC course.
D) Have passed the professional flight crew examinations at ATPL level.
- I have indeed "passed" these, there is no mention of validity periods or
expiry in this.
In the next section "Knowledge of Aeroplane Performance"
Section B states the following:-
"Licence holders who have passed the ATPL JAR-FCL performance examination
are deemed to have demonstrated the appropriate knowledge for multi-engine
turbine aircraft (Perf groups A and C)"
- Once again I have indeed passed these exams and "demonstrated the
appropriate knowledge"
Can you therefore advise why I would not be able to add a Multi-Pilot type
rating to a valid CPL/Multi IR even though my ATPL theory has expired.
The wording within Lasors merely states that I must have "passed" and
"demonstrated" the ATPL theory exams which I have indeed done.
Though I understand that I would not be able to fly as captain on an
aircraft of this type, I should therefore in theory be able to operate as FO
giving me a few years to resit my ATPL theory whilst building hours towards
a command.
Can you therefore please confirm that I have this correct and have not
missed anything."
The CAA's response:-
"Dear XXXXXX
Thank you for your email below.
As I mentioned to you in my previous email, as you did not obtain the IR(A)
in accordance with the JAR-FCL 1.495 Acceptance period (i.e 36 months),you
are no longer deemed to have ATPL(A) theory for the purposes of gaining an
IR(A), Multi-pilot type rating or JAR ATPL(A).
Our LASORS 2006 publication is guidance and is based on the requirements
contained within JAR-FCL, the Air Navigation Order and other publications.
The document has been produced in a more simplified manner than JAR-FCL but
wherever there is any doubt the authoritative source documents should be
referred to. Therefore:-
JAR-FCL 1.465 states that:- An applicant for a professional licence or an
instrument rating shall demonstrate a level of knowledge appropriate to the
privileges of the licence or rating for which application is made by passing
the theoretical knowledge examinations in accordance with the procedures set
out in JAR-FCL 1.470 through 1.495.
Whilst this was acceptable for the issue of the CPL(A)as you were within the
36 months acceptance period, as the IR(A) was not obtained for licensing
purposes in accordance with this paragraph you are no longer deemed to have
the "level of knowledge" appropriate to the privileges of the rating(s) in
this case the IR(A) and Multi-pilot type rating and the ATPL(A) licence.
For the issue of an IR(A) JAR-FCL 1.195 (b) and Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.205
(6)states that An applicant shall demonstrate a level of knowledge
appropriate to the privileges granted to the holder of an IR(A) and shall
meet the requirements set out in JAR-FC 1 Subpart J.
With regards to the pre-requisite conditions for training for a multi-pilot
aeroplane as per JAR-FCL 1.250 (a)and simplified in LASORS 2006 Section
F4.1:-
1. you state that you have in excess of 100 hours as PIC of aeroplanes,
therefore you meet already this requirement;
2. Hold a valid ME Instrument Rating - this you do not currently hold and
you do not currently have either the ATPL(A) or IR(A) theory required for
endorsement subject to completion of an approved IR(A) Course and Skill
Test. If you do obtain the IR(A) on the basis of taking IR(A) level
examinations these will be valid for the issuance of the IR(A) only. Your
ATPL(A) theory has been lost and to gain a multi-pilot type rating or
ATPL(A) you will be required to pass the JAR-ATPL(A) examinations.
3. Hold a Certificate of completion of an MCC Course-The MCC Course is for
integrated course students or PPL/IR or CPL/IR holders wishing to obtain an
initial type rating on multi-pilot aeroplanes (JAR-FCL 1.261(d)(i) and (ii)
refers). You do not currently hold an IR(A);
4. Have passed the professional flight crew examination at ATPL level.
JAR-FCL 1.250(a) (4) is the reference this was taken from which actually
states:-have met the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.285.
Para (b) of JAR-1.285 states:- An applicant for an ATPL(A) shall have
demonstrated a level of knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted to
the holder of an ATPL(A) and in accordance with the requirements of JAR-FCL
1 Subpart J.
5. Knowledge of Aeroplane Performance - although you have passed this as
part of the JAR-FCL ATPL(A) theory exams as they are deemed to be no longer
valid, you no longer hold the appropriate Performance or ATPL(A) theory to
satisfy the requirement for the addition of a Multi-pilot type rating.
Subpart J relates to the theoretical knowledge requirements for a licence or
rating and as mentioned previously specifies the pass standards and
acceptance period these need to be achieved in and clearly state that only
where the CPL(A) and IR(A) are obtained within the 36 months do they then
remain valid for 7 years.
Also, JAR-FCL 1.010 Basic Authority to act as a flight crew member also
states:- (a) (1) A person shall not act as a flight crew member of a civil
aeroplane registered in a JAA Member State unless that person holds a valid
licence or rating complying with the requirements of JAR-FCL... This will
include complying with the theoretical knowledge requirements above.
ICAO Annex 1 Chapter 2 para 2.1.1.3. states An applicant shall, before being
issued with any pilot licence or rating,meet such requirements in respect of
age, knowledge, experience, flight instruction, skill and medical fitness,
as are specified for that licence or rating.
An applicant for any pilot licence or rating shall demonstrate, in a manner
determined by the Licensing Authority, such requirements for knowledge as
specified for that licence or rating.
The knowledge in this case is determined by passing the examinations in
accordance with the pass standards and acceptance period of Subpart J of
JAR-FCL, again detailed above.
ICAO Annex 1 Personnel Licensing Chapter 2 para 2.1.5.2 relates to the
Requirements for the issue of class and type ratings. In para 2.1.5.3 it
states for a type rating (certificated for operation with 2 pilots) An
applicant shall have demonstrated at the Airline Transport Pilot Licence
Level an extent of knowledge determined by the Licensing Authority..
The ATPL(A) knowledge in accordance with the pass standards and acceptance
period of JAR-FCL will remain valid for 7 years if the CPL(A) and IR(A) were
obtained within the 36 month validity.
Therefore, in response to your enquiry as to why we are unable to issue a
multi-pilot type rating to you as the holder of a CPL(A) without IR(A)
having previously "passed" ATPL theory that has now expired, I hope that the
above explains in full. Examination validity periods and acceptance periods
have always been put in place and in order to retain ATPL theory it has
always been a requirement to gain both the CPL(A) and IR(A) within a
prescribed period, even before JAR-FCL was introduced.
Whenever there is a requirement for theoretical knowledge for a licence or a
rating this is deemed to be examinations passed within the stated validity
and acceptance periods, in this case JAR-FCL 1 Subpart J specifies those
conditions.
Regards"
Clear as mud ???
Basically the way the CAA sees it, even though I've "demonstrated" knowledge as is required, cause its not actually valid its like it never happened and was never demonstrated at all! How mad is that !!!
I'm seriously tempted to take legal advice on this actually as the CAA seem to interpret the wording to suit their own needs and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny at all !
Anyone else got any views on the legality of this ?
My last e-mail to the CAA:-
"Good afternoon XXXXX and a happy new year to you.
You may remember that I was in correspondence with yourself regarding
expired ATPL exams and the possibility of being able to fly a multi crew
aircraft with a CPL/IR and expired ATPL theory to which you responded it
would not be possible.
After studying the Lasors 2006, discussion with a number of flight schools &
indeed a local airline I have ties with, I cannot however see how this can
be the case?
In Lasors 2006 section F4.1 Multi-Pilot Aeroplane Type rating,
pre-requisites for training as given as:-
a) Have completed at least 100 hours as pilot-in command.
- This is fine as I have in excess of double this time.
B) Hold a valid multi-engine Instrument rating.
- This would be the case as I would have resat the IR Theory only.
C) Hold a certificate of completion of an MCC course
- This would also be the case, there is no requirement for ATPL theory
within the MCC course.
D) Have passed the professional flight crew examinations at ATPL level.
- I have indeed "passed" these, there is no mention of validity periods or
expiry in this.
In the next section "Knowledge of Aeroplane Performance"
Section B states the following:-
"Licence holders who have passed the ATPL JAR-FCL performance examination
are deemed to have demonstrated the appropriate knowledge for multi-engine
turbine aircraft (Perf groups A and C)"
- Once again I have indeed passed these exams and "demonstrated the
appropriate knowledge"
Can you therefore advise why I would not be able to add a Multi-Pilot type
rating to a valid CPL/Multi IR even though my ATPL theory has expired.
The wording within Lasors merely states that I must have "passed" and
"demonstrated" the ATPL theory exams which I have indeed done.
Though I understand that I would not be able to fly as captain on an
aircraft of this type, I should therefore in theory be able to operate as FO
giving me a few years to resit my ATPL theory whilst building hours towards
a command.
Can you therefore please confirm that I have this correct and have not
missed anything."
The CAA's response:-
"Dear XXXXXX
Thank you for your email below.
As I mentioned to you in my previous email, as you did not obtain the IR(A)
in accordance with the JAR-FCL 1.495 Acceptance period (i.e 36 months),you
are no longer deemed to have ATPL(A) theory for the purposes of gaining an
IR(A), Multi-pilot type rating or JAR ATPL(A).
Our LASORS 2006 publication is guidance and is based on the requirements
contained within JAR-FCL, the Air Navigation Order and other publications.
The document has been produced in a more simplified manner than JAR-FCL but
wherever there is any doubt the authoritative source documents should be
referred to. Therefore:-
JAR-FCL 1.465 states that:- An applicant for a professional licence or an
instrument rating shall demonstrate a level of knowledge appropriate to the
privileges of the licence or rating for which application is made by passing
the theoretical knowledge examinations in accordance with the procedures set
out in JAR-FCL 1.470 through 1.495.
Whilst this was acceptable for the issue of the CPL(A)as you were within the
36 months acceptance period, as the IR(A) was not obtained for licensing
purposes in accordance with this paragraph you are no longer deemed to have
the "level of knowledge" appropriate to the privileges of the rating(s) in
this case the IR(A) and Multi-pilot type rating and the ATPL(A) licence.
For the issue of an IR(A) JAR-FCL 1.195 (b) and Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.205
(6)states that An applicant shall demonstrate a level of knowledge
appropriate to the privileges granted to the holder of an IR(A) and shall
meet the requirements set out in JAR-FC 1 Subpart J.
With regards to the pre-requisite conditions for training for a multi-pilot
aeroplane as per JAR-FCL 1.250 (a)and simplified in LASORS 2006 Section
F4.1:-
1. you state that you have in excess of 100 hours as PIC of aeroplanes,
therefore you meet already this requirement;
2. Hold a valid ME Instrument Rating - this you do not currently hold and
you do not currently have either the ATPL(A) or IR(A) theory required for
endorsement subject to completion of an approved IR(A) Course and Skill
Test. If you do obtain the IR(A) on the basis of taking IR(A) level
examinations these will be valid for the issuance of the IR(A) only. Your
ATPL(A) theory has been lost and to gain a multi-pilot type rating or
ATPL(A) you will be required to pass the JAR-ATPL(A) examinations.
3. Hold a Certificate of completion of an MCC Course-The MCC Course is for
integrated course students or PPL/IR or CPL/IR holders wishing to obtain an
initial type rating on multi-pilot aeroplanes (JAR-FCL 1.261(d)(i) and (ii)
refers). You do not currently hold an IR(A);
4. Have passed the professional flight crew examination at ATPL level.
JAR-FCL 1.250(a) (4) is the reference this was taken from which actually
states:-have met the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.285.
Para (b) of JAR-1.285 states:- An applicant for an ATPL(A) shall have
demonstrated a level of knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted to
the holder of an ATPL(A) and in accordance with the requirements of JAR-FCL
1 Subpart J.
5. Knowledge of Aeroplane Performance - although you have passed this as
part of the JAR-FCL ATPL(A) theory exams as they are deemed to be no longer
valid, you no longer hold the appropriate Performance or ATPL(A) theory to
satisfy the requirement for the addition of a Multi-pilot type rating.
Subpart J relates to the theoretical knowledge requirements for a licence or
rating and as mentioned previously specifies the pass standards and
acceptance period these need to be achieved in and clearly state that only
where the CPL(A) and IR(A) are obtained within the 36 months do they then
remain valid for 7 years.
Also, JAR-FCL 1.010 Basic Authority to act as a flight crew member also
states:- (a) (1) A person shall not act as a flight crew member of a civil
aeroplane registered in a JAA Member State unless that person holds a valid
licence or rating complying with the requirements of JAR-FCL... This will
include complying with the theoretical knowledge requirements above.
ICAO Annex 1 Chapter 2 para 2.1.1.3. states An applicant shall, before being
issued with any pilot licence or rating,meet such requirements in respect of
age, knowledge, experience, flight instruction, skill and medical fitness,
as are specified for that licence or rating.
An applicant for any pilot licence or rating shall demonstrate, in a manner
determined by the Licensing Authority, such requirements for knowledge as
specified for that licence or rating.
The knowledge in this case is determined by passing the examinations in
accordance with the pass standards and acceptance period of Subpart J of
JAR-FCL, again detailed above.
ICAO Annex 1 Personnel Licensing Chapter 2 para 2.1.5.2 relates to the
Requirements for the issue of class and type ratings. In para 2.1.5.3 it
states for a type rating (certificated for operation with 2 pilots) An
applicant shall have demonstrated at the Airline Transport Pilot Licence
Level an extent of knowledge determined by the Licensing Authority..
The ATPL(A) knowledge in accordance with the pass standards and acceptance
period of JAR-FCL will remain valid for 7 years if the CPL(A) and IR(A) were
obtained within the 36 month validity.
Therefore, in response to your enquiry as to why we are unable to issue a
multi-pilot type rating to you as the holder of a CPL(A) without IR(A)
having previously "passed" ATPL theory that has now expired, I hope that the
above explains in full. Examination validity periods and acceptance periods
have always been put in place and in order to retain ATPL theory it has
always been a requirement to gain both the CPL(A) and IR(A) within a
prescribed period, even before JAR-FCL was introduced.
Whenever there is a requirement for theoretical knowledge for a licence or a
rating this is deemed to be examinations passed within the stated validity
and acceptance periods, in this case JAR-FCL 1 Subpart J specifies those
conditions.
Regards"
Clear as mud ???
Basically the way the CAA sees it, even though I've "demonstrated" knowledge as is required, cause its not actually valid its like it never happened and was never demonstrated at all! How mad is that !!!
I'm seriously tempted to take legal advice on this actually as the CAA seem to interpret the wording to suit their own needs and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny at all !
Anyone else got any views on the legality of this ?
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Its a right old mess
It used to be 60 months and was reduced under JAA to 36 months
There are people in the system who do NOT meet the 36 month criteria
I have met them
That is why LASORS says .................
"have passed the professional flight crew
examinations at ATPL level."
rather than what is said in JAR FCL-1...................
"Examination. An applicant for an
ATPL(A) shall have demonstrated a level of
knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted
to the holder of an ATPL(A) and in accordance
with the requirements in JAR–FCL 1 (Aeroplane)
Subpart J. [Amdt. 1, 01.06.00; Amdt. 3, 01.07.03]"
... because there are people with fATPL who do NOT meet the criteria described (with national exam passes) who have and will do multi crew ratings
You have to feel sorry for the CAA its proved very difficult to accommodate
the introduction of more draconian exam rules as JAR FCL-1 became law.
Although they presumably were at the meetings when all this nonsense was discussed. Could have been at the bar? The Helicopter stuff is in a right old mess - still interim draft etc - they got bored with that......
The thing I cant get my head round is why they fixate so much on the IR for airline pilot licence issue when....
1/ This 'single crew' IR is not needed for airliners and lapses for most
2/ The MPL doesnt even need it (September 2006 start)
In JAR-land they have used the IR flight test as an Airline Pilot (test of metal) check ride and in so doing have made it none accessible to PPL holders as the JAA now admit.....
In the UK less than 0.10 % of PPLs do it annually- a disaster - they are now planning to relax the exams to make it more accessible - In France etc its worse - no IMC rating there... there is a real problem here
Essentially the rating in JAA is exclusive whereas in FAA land its inclusive
hence the reason why many business men fly N in Europe - They havent got the time to complete the rigorous professional exams and prefer a straightforward integrated exam done at a test centre at a time of their own choosing
The agenda for all this is driven by the providers - its known in the teaching and learning world as "Provider driven training"
The irony is that if they sorted it out the industry would boom like in the USA .. but we are dealing here with people who make their living from regulation and from overpriced MCQ tests.
Happy new year to all at the CAA
There are people in the system who do NOT meet the 36 month criteria
I have met them
That is why LASORS says .................
"have passed the professional flight crew
examinations at ATPL level."
rather than what is said in JAR FCL-1...................
"Examination. An applicant for an
ATPL(A) shall have demonstrated a level of
knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted
to the holder of an ATPL(A) and in accordance
with the requirements in JAR–FCL 1 (Aeroplane)
Subpart J. [Amdt. 1, 01.06.00; Amdt. 3, 01.07.03]"
... because there are people with fATPL who do NOT meet the criteria described (with national exam passes) who have and will do multi crew ratings
You have to feel sorry for the CAA its proved very difficult to accommodate
the introduction of more draconian exam rules as JAR FCL-1 became law.
Although they presumably were at the meetings when all this nonsense was discussed. Could have been at the bar? The Helicopter stuff is in a right old mess - still interim draft etc - they got bored with that......
The thing I cant get my head round is why they fixate so much on the IR for airline pilot licence issue when....
1/ This 'single crew' IR is not needed for airliners and lapses for most
2/ The MPL doesnt even need it (September 2006 start)
In JAR-land they have used the IR flight test as an Airline Pilot (test of metal) check ride and in so doing have made it none accessible to PPL holders as the JAA now admit.....
In the UK less than 0.10 % of PPLs do it annually- a disaster - they are now planning to relax the exams to make it more accessible - In France etc its worse - no IMC rating there... there is a real problem here
Essentially the rating in JAA is exclusive whereas in FAA land its inclusive
hence the reason why many business men fly N in Europe - They havent got the time to complete the rigorous professional exams and prefer a straightforward integrated exam done at a test centre at a time of their own choosing
The agenda for all this is driven by the providers - its known in the teaching and learning world as "Provider driven training"
The irony is that if they sorted it out the industry would boom like in the USA .. but we are dealing here with people who make their living from regulation and from overpriced MCQ tests.
Happy new year to all at the CAA
Last edited by RVR800; 10th Mar 2006 at 13:29.
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The JAA Quest
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WOW! Its all logical and makes sense!! Hats off to the JAA.
Can we get this lot to look at the ATPL syllabus next please ?
I particularly like Section 4.4 "Identical Modules need to offer identical credits for those completing them"
Would be nice it they applied that the CPL holders wishing to upgrade to ATPL theory level.....
I'll add it to my Christmas wish list.....
Can we get this lot to look at the ATPL syllabus next please ?
I particularly like Section 4.4 "Identical Modules need to offer identical credits for those completing them"
Would be nice it they applied that the CPL holders wishing to upgrade to ATPL theory level.....
I'll add it to my Christmas wish list.....
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I had my theory ATP exam succesfully completed on 1 Jan 2003.
So they expired on 1 Jan 2006.
Surely anyone who invests the time and money needed to pass these exams would make the effort to learn the process of obtaining the licence to which they relate. If not, then you have seriously missjudged professional aviation as a career.
The JAA exams may not be very logical or event relevant, they were formulated by a European committe of mostly ex airline pilots. Each country in Europe had their own ideas of how it should be done so we have the classic Camel designed by a committee. If you want to qualify, you learn the rules and follow them, flying is an exacting game that requires people to organise and manage themselves and events effectively and efficiently. Qualifying is something of a hurdle, and quite deliberately has a time limit. If you can get through it you may finish up in the left hand seat of a Jet one day; if you bitch and moan and can't make the first hurdle because you can't or don't read the rules then there is not much hope as most employers simply won't want to employ you.
So they expired on 1 Jan 2006.
Surely anyone who invests the time and money needed to pass these exams would make the effort to learn the process of obtaining the licence to which they relate. If not, then you have seriously missjudged professional aviation as a career.
The JAA exams may not be very logical or event relevant, they were formulated by a European committe of mostly ex airline pilots. Each country in Europe had their own ideas of how it should be done so we have the classic Camel designed by a committee. If you want to qualify, you learn the rules and follow them, flying is an exacting game that requires people to organise and manage themselves and events effectively and efficiently. Qualifying is something of a hurdle, and quite deliberately has a time limit. If you can get through it you may finish up in the left hand seat of a Jet one day; if you bitch and moan and can't make the first hurdle because you can't or don't read the rules then there is not much hope as most employers simply won't want to employ you.
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Yes we signed up to the rules of the game, so are responsible.. that is true
....although its probably also true to say that the system is inflexible, inconsistent and old-fashioned....
rather like S&Ls Camel!
Old Fahioned?
The MPL is an exception; a recent attempt to modernise - integrated, horses-for-courses training for airline pilots... unrelated to the single crew IR that is deemed so essential with the fATPL at the moment....
....although its probably also true to say that the system is inflexible, inconsistent and old-fashioned....
rather like S&Ls Camel!
Old Fahioned?
The MPL is an exception; a recent attempt to modernise - integrated, horses-for-courses training for airline pilots... unrelated to the single crew IR that is deemed so essential with the fATPL at the moment....
Last edited by RVR800; 13th Mar 2006 at 09:10.