Hour Building (General & UK)
Join Date: Jan 2001
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An Interesting Hour Building Idea !!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6366&q=top+gun
Looks like these guys made good use of their hour building time !!!
Looks like these guys made good use of their hour building time !!!
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando, Florida
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L15 - despite your clear enthusiasm for the game, at the age of 15 and with 3 hours logged towards a PPL, this really is a bit premature.
By the time you have the PPL and are ready to go hour building (for what?) no doubt a number of those schools in the US will have ceased trading - especially if they are not supported by a website or flight school listing.
Of course you want to progress, I see you also want an IMC, Multi engine and night QUALIFICATION (it's not called a rating), but it'll all come - in time.
BTW - what's a Vigilant and/or Tutor?
By the time you have the PPL and are ready to go hour building (for what?) no doubt a number of those schools in the US will have ceased trading - especially if they are not supported by a website or flight school listing.
Of course you want to progress, I see you also want an IMC, Multi engine and night QUALIFICATION (it's not called a rating), but it'll all come - in time.
BTW - what's a Vigilant and/or Tutor?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
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Bournemouth groups/ hour building
Hi all,
Just a quick one to see if anyone knows of any group shares operating from Bournemouth.
I have had a look on the hangar.co.uk and also ukga to no avail. Im sure there must be a few groups operating from such a large popular airfield. If you dont wish to post directly please PM me with any details.
I am preferably looking to join a group, however if anyone knows of any other competitive rates for hour building in a PA 28 or 152, i would be interested to hear.
Many thanks,
expedite
Just a quick one to see if anyone knows of any group shares operating from Bournemouth.
I have had a look on the hangar.co.uk and also ukga to no avail. Im sure there must be a few groups operating from such a large popular airfield. If you dont wish to post directly please PM me with any details.
I am preferably looking to join a group, however if anyone knows of any other competitive rates for hour building in a PA 28 or 152, i would be interested to hear.
Many thanks,
expedite
Jet Blast Rat
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If it is BOIX I can tell you that it is flown a lot. Was always seeing it up and about. Considering what happens to machinery that is idle, this can only be a good thing.
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In a UK context concentrating on the fixed costs, from personal experience a four seat fixed prop and gear single will cost at least £6500/yr in what I would consider static costs. Some poeple I have spoken to think our aircraft was unusually expensive, others think we got off lightly. All in all, I think this is the average:
* For a well serviced long tarmac runway airfield in the SE non-hangered parking and landing card is about £240/mo.
* Insurance is about £1400/yr (incl Crown Ind.)
* Annual £1500
* Fixing other stuff that just breaks £400
* CofA renewal will be a minimum of £3000.
Add 50% for a twin and 20% for a complex single. Add 1% for every additional person over a group of three. Having the experience of a small and large groups I know that the small group cherished the aircraft and treated it like their own personal property. The large group treat it like a fly-hire (not efficiently flown, left uncleaned, hangar rash, fuel testers go walkies, not shutdown properly, etc).
You need to decide how to factor the servicing costs into the hourly rate depending on how many hours the aircraft will fly.
Things you need to rumminate on:
* Do you buy the aircraft and then rent it out on a no capital deposit basis, rather like a flying club.
* Do you sell captial shares in the aircraft? If so how will you reover the cost of an engine going pop?
* Who pays the insurance excess for accident damage? How will you recover the money?
* Who is going to have the time to manage and administer an extremely active and large aircraft group?
* Who will be available for check rides?
* How will you charge people who you don't know for usage?
* How will you deal will the inevitible very difficult characters and frankly awful pilots that will inevitibly cross your path?
On the subject of usage, I think your 7/day/week estimates are impossible. Always halve your optimistic view and then reduce again by 10%. Also think how many 100hr services that involves and how much personal time that will occupy if the engineering shop isn't at the same base.
* For a well serviced long tarmac runway airfield in the SE non-hangered parking and landing card is about £240/mo.
* Insurance is about £1400/yr (incl Crown Ind.)
* Annual £1500
* Fixing other stuff that just breaks £400
* CofA renewal will be a minimum of £3000.
Add 50% for a twin and 20% for a complex single. Add 1% for every additional person over a group of three. Having the experience of a small and large groups I know that the small group cherished the aircraft and treated it like their own personal property. The large group treat it like a fly-hire (not efficiently flown, left uncleaned, hangar rash, fuel testers go walkies, not shutdown properly, etc).
You need to decide how to factor the servicing costs into the hourly rate depending on how many hours the aircraft will fly.
Things you need to rumminate on:
* Do you buy the aircraft and then rent it out on a no capital deposit basis, rather like a flying club.
* Do you sell captial shares in the aircraft? If so how will you reover the cost of an engine going pop?
* Who pays the insurance excess for accident damage? How will you recover the money?
* Who is going to have the time to manage and administer an extremely active and large aircraft group?
* Who will be available for check rides?
* How will you charge people who you don't know for usage?
* How will you deal will the inevitible very difficult characters and frankly awful pilots that will inevitibly cross your path?
On the subject of usage, I think your 7/day/week estimates are impossible. Always halve your optimistic view and then reduce again by 10%. Also think how many 100hr services that involves and how much personal time that will occupy if the engineering shop isn't at the same base.
Join Date: Nov 2005
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As an aside but kind of linked to your post....When I was out in Florida doing my PPL I heard stories of wannabees that had teamed up to buy aircraft and burn hours. Best I heard was of a group of guys that chipped in some cash to buy a beaten up old apache twin and burn 100 hours each in it. Toured across the US if I remember rightly which no doubt would have been a blast with the right group of people. At the end they sold the aircraft for around the same price they paid for it. Breaking even is of course dependant on so many factors and cannot be assured. Always thought this was a good way of going about hour building, however, as with most things in life getting others to put their money where their mouths are is probably one of the biggest hurdles to overcome. Another idea I have been toying with for some time was buying an aircraft stateside and shipping it back to the UK for my CPL/IR training and trying to offset some costs by renting it out to a school and/or other wannabees when its not in use. I am still not yet convinced if all the hassle would be worth it though.
Join Date: May 2005
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Owning an aircraft and leasing it to a club to make money is only possible if you:
a) Own the aircraft entirely,
b) Own the maintenace organisation that does the maintenance,
and for an extra boost
c) Own the club that operates it.
Realistically, what can be achieved is reduction in costs. You have to be very lucky to actually make money out of owning one aeroplane. Be prepared to through piles of money into a black pit. I am not trying to disuade you, merely get accross the point that if you think you can make a profit out of one aircraft tread carefully. You can get lucky and recover some of your costs but you may suddenly find that you need to put your hand in your pocket for a new engine or a prop outside of the scheduled overhaul times.
Obviously finding the right aircraft is a task.
a) Own the aircraft entirely,
b) Own the maintenace organisation that does the maintenance,
and for an extra boost
c) Own the club that operates it.
Realistically, what can be achieved is reduction in costs. You have to be very lucky to actually make money out of owning one aeroplane. Be prepared to through piles of money into a black pit. I am not trying to disuade you, merely get accross the point that if you think you can make a profit out of one aircraft tread carefully. You can get lucky and recover some of your costs but you may suddenly find that you need to put your hand in your pocket for a new engine or a prop outside of the scheduled overhaul times.
Obviously finding the right aircraft is a task.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Your sums look great but if it it was that easy why isn't everyone doing it? And why don't flying school owners drive large expensive cars? I usually reckon the schools don't make loads on renting aircraft.
Ask the schools where you are how many hours the aircraft do per year. I can't recall a school plane in the UK doing much more than 700 hours per year (2 hours per day) . The average shared aircraft struggles to do 200 hours. Perhaps your motivated members would do more.
I did wonder about your insurance costs. $30,000 per year looks a lot. On the other side of the coin would $10,000 cover 3000 hours of flying maintenance. Don't you need at least one new engine in this time.
Talk to people who own planes and find out how much they actually cost per hour to fly.
Good luck though, great idea. Aviation needs people who challenge the norms.
Ask the schools where you are how many hours the aircraft do per year. I can't recall a school plane in the UK doing much more than 700 hours per year (2 hours per day) . The average shared aircraft struggles to do 200 hours. Perhaps your motivated members would do more.
I did wonder about your insurance costs. $30,000 per year looks a lot. On the other side of the coin would $10,000 cover 3000 hours of flying maintenance. Don't you need at least one new engine in this time.
Talk to people who own planes and find out how much they actually cost per hour to fly.
Good luck though, great idea. Aviation needs people who challenge the norms.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dallas USA / UK
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Interesting Idea
Hi,
Have spent some time on a very similar project with some slight differences, none of which i will go into here (if you are interested i have some documentation on the research i did - pm me). The main difference is the fact that we worked it out for 4 participants.
Our idea never actually came to fruition due to the following reasons.
- Knowing a fair few friends who have shares in plane, it is fair to say that people do not necessarily treat a shared plane as well as it should be kept. Posing the question, how do you ensure that the plane is kept in a condition (cleanliness) that everyone is happy with?
- The costs of owning airplanes is huge (giant hole in the sky in which to throw money, etc etc), how can you ensure people will pay the hidden costs that arise from nowhere?
- Most people will be working other jobs whilst time building and therefore the weekends would get really busy for bookings with the week less so. How can you ensure that all participants are getting a fair amount of time?
i'm sure there were more reasons we thought of, but it was a while ago and i can remember then now.
Hope some of this proves useful. It is a great idea in theory, but i'm not convinced about it.
Have spent some time on a very similar project with some slight differences, none of which i will go into here (if you are interested i have some documentation on the research i did - pm me). The main difference is the fact that we worked it out for 4 participants.
Our idea never actually came to fruition due to the following reasons.
- Knowing a fair few friends who have shares in plane, it is fair to say that people do not necessarily treat a shared plane as well as it should be kept. Posing the question, how do you ensure that the plane is kept in a condition (cleanliness) that everyone is happy with?
- The costs of owning airplanes is huge (giant hole in the sky in which to throw money, etc etc), how can you ensure people will pay the hidden costs that arise from nowhere?
- Most people will be working other jobs whilst time building and therefore the weekends would get really busy for bookings with the week less so. How can you ensure that all participants are getting a fair amount of time?
i'm sure there were more reasons we thought of, but it was a while ago and i can remember then now.
Hope some of this proves useful. It is a great idea in theory, but i'm not convinced about it.