Ari-Ben Aviator
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Ari Ben Aviator.....
Having just got my CPL/IR and MCC I am looking to build my multi-time. Ari Ben in Ft Pierce, Florida are doing a 100 hours, actual IFR package in a Duchess for approx $6000. Has anyone been there or been down this route??? Any information would be gratefully recieved.... Cheers
Join Date: Apr 2001
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I'm looking at doing that package as well. It justs look too good to be true to me.
If my maths is any good it works out at less than £50 per hour for an IFR twin.
What's the catch?
I would also like to hear from anyone with any experience of this deal.
If my maths is any good it works out at less than £50 per hour for an IFR twin.
What's the catch?
I would also like to hear from anyone with any experience of this deal.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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I have been there.
They like you to fly at the end of the day and into the night.
Beware, you can only log half the time you fly for the purpose of a UK licence.
You need a car.
Accom is quite a distance away.
They told me what I wanted to hear, know what I mean.
But all in all I had a good time and some excellent flying.
They like you to fly at the end of the day and into the night.
Beware, you can only log half the time you fly for the purpose of a UK licence.
You need a car.
Accom is quite a distance away.
They told me what I wanted to hear, know what I mean.
But all in all I had a good time and some excellent flying.
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What's the catch... well make sure the lease is WET, ie U don't have to pay for the fuel in addition to the $50/h. Actually I don't know any US operator who could afford to wet-lease a twin @ $50/h without losing money. What's the state of this twin ? There are lots of "death traps" flying in FL, beware & make sure U see the tech & maintenance logs !
MF
MF
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I'd be awfully leery, gentlemen! This establishment used to be situated in the Dallas, TX area, where the flying also is good and the competition slightly scarcer than FL.
Unless the owners moved simply because they liked Florida strictly for personal reasons, such a distant change-of-venue for a flight school or FBO does not generally bode well. The "package" price is, as well, much too low to be credible for anything not in dire need of an exorcist.
Unless the owners moved simply because they liked Florida strictly for personal reasons, such a distant change-of-venue for a flight school or FBO does not generally bode well. The "package" price is, as well, much too low to be credible for anything not in dire need of an exorcist.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Seagull,
I've never FLOWN from Ari Ben - but I've spent many times working with Mike Cohen (the owner).
The aeroplanes looked great when I inspected them in the hangar - they had six Duchess..all identical...every flight panel was exactly the same (that's what identical means, right?).
Mike was quite open about his deal. Whatever price you are quoted for the package is the price you would be charged.
You would be teamed up with another pilot - you would both have to be trained and tested to fly Duchess and have full instrument rating BEFORE starting this deal.
The two of you would rent the aircraft - pay your $6000 each - and go flying. One of you would be the pilot and fly the plane - the other would look out of the window as a safety pilot (maybe work the radio).
Under FAA rules (some say [I don't know]) you can BOTH log the time as P1.
Your hundred hours of twin time may be 50 hours of flying and 50 hours of looking for traffic and talking on the radio.
If you care, the CAA are well aware of this operation (numerous schools offer it - I'm not attacking Ari Ben here). I had a discussion with the CAA over a beer (or three) in a hotel in Fort Pierce, Florida just two weeks ago - and this scheme was the topic of one of our discussions.....mainly because the new JAA school E.F.T. uses the offices and aircraft of Ari Ben to do its courses.
I'd also note that as winter approaches - nobody can guarantee you actual IFR. This is Florida.
I also quizzed Mike on the rules for taking the aircraft away from base on a long cross country flight - he did not like the idea. He wanted the aircraft to be back at Fort Pierce at the end of every day...partly because he couldn't afford to give you 100% access to the aircraft (as he could fly it all day and make money with it) and partly because it wasn't worth the risk of you suffering a technical problem somewhere a long way away from his mechanics.
The deal seemed genuine - the aircraft looked VERY good - the deal is not acceptable to the UK CAA.
Decide for yourself what you want the hours for. Remember the great saying - "If it sounds too good to be true..."
I've never FLOWN from Ari Ben - but I've spent many times working with Mike Cohen (the owner).
The aeroplanes looked great when I inspected them in the hangar - they had six Duchess..all identical...every flight panel was exactly the same (that's what identical means, right?).
Mike was quite open about his deal. Whatever price you are quoted for the package is the price you would be charged.
You would be teamed up with another pilot - you would both have to be trained and tested to fly Duchess and have full instrument rating BEFORE starting this deal.
The two of you would rent the aircraft - pay your $6000 each - and go flying. One of you would be the pilot and fly the plane - the other would look out of the window as a safety pilot (maybe work the radio).
Under FAA rules (some say [I don't know]) you can BOTH log the time as P1.
Your hundred hours of twin time may be 50 hours of flying and 50 hours of looking for traffic and talking on the radio.
If you care, the CAA are well aware of this operation (numerous schools offer it - I'm not attacking Ari Ben here). I had a discussion with the CAA over a beer (or three) in a hotel in Fort Pierce, Florida just two weeks ago - and this scheme was the topic of one of our discussions.....mainly because the new JAA school E.F.T. uses the offices and aircraft of Ari Ben to do its courses.
I'd also note that as winter approaches - nobody can guarantee you actual IFR. This is Florida.
I also quizzed Mike on the rules for taking the aircraft away from base on a long cross country flight - he did not like the idea. He wanted the aircraft to be back at Fort Pierce at the end of every day...partly because he couldn't afford to give you 100% access to the aircraft (as he could fly it all day and make money with it) and partly because it wasn't worth the risk of you suffering a technical problem somewhere a long way away from his mechanics.
The deal seemed genuine - the aircraft looked VERY good - the deal is not acceptable to the UK CAA.
Decide for yourself what you want the hours for. Remember the great saying - "If it sounds too good to be true..."
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Seagull
are doing a 100 hours, actual IFR package in a Duchess for approx $6000.
GoneWest
Under FAA rules (some say [I don't know]) you can BOTH log the time as P1.
Your hundred hours of twin time may be 50 hours of flying and 50 hours of looking for traffic and talking on the radio.
Just to clarify some things in this thread, maybe just for my own benefit.
I am assuming in this case that you are teamed up with another pilot who is also multi rated. The phrase 'actual IFR' does not make sense. IFR are the rules you fly under as opposed to VFR. You can be flying IFR and be in IMC or VMC. By actual IFR, do you mean IFR in IMC?
A duchess is a "single pilot machine", no second in command required.
FAA has the concept of Pilot in Command, close to P1 but not identical. When I refer to PIC I am assuming FARs apply.
Now.
If you are in VMC and one pilot is under the hood and sole manipulator of the controls, and it is agreed the other pilot is legally PIC (ie responsible for the safe conduct of the flight) BOTH pilots can log PIC. If the pilot flying is also responsible for the flight, the other safety pilot cannot log PIC, just SIC. This comes from the fact that in VMC (even on an IFR flight plan) you are responsible for separation from VFR traffic in the same airspace. As the guy under the hood cannot possibly separate, then the second pilot becomes required crew, the safety pilot if you will.
Now if you are in IMC ("actual"), only one of the pilots can log PIC. That will be the pilot manipulating the controls. As you are in IMC, ATC becomes responsible for separation (from other IFR traffic) and there is no safety pilot required - even if he handles the radios.
So if you are looking to build hours by both logging PIC, you want to avoid IMC (or actual IFR). Of course, the logbook system is an honour system, but I certainly would not abuse this.
As for $120 per hour for a duchess, this sounds cheap. Are they insured? There are outfits out there who put a CFI in the back seat so there are actually three people logging PIC!
Legal PIC (right seat, safety pilot)
Sole Manipulator of Controls under hood (left seat)
Instructor in the back, saying turn left 120
That puts it up to $180 per hour, which is quite doable and should give the operator a profit.
Naturally this is an 'FAA centric' opinion, from my understanding of CAA logging, it would be quite different. Clear as mud?
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
are doing a 100 hours, actual IFR package in a Duchess for approx $6000.
GoneWest
Under FAA rules (some say [I don't know]) you can BOTH log the time as P1.
Your hundred hours of twin time may be 50 hours of flying and 50 hours of looking for traffic and talking on the radio.
Just to clarify some things in this thread, maybe just for my own benefit.
I am assuming in this case that you are teamed up with another pilot who is also multi rated. The phrase 'actual IFR' does not make sense. IFR are the rules you fly under as opposed to VFR. You can be flying IFR and be in IMC or VMC. By actual IFR, do you mean IFR in IMC?
A duchess is a "single pilot machine", no second in command required.
FAA has the concept of Pilot in Command, close to P1 but not identical. When I refer to PIC I am assuming FARs apply.
Now.
If you are in VMC and one pilot is under the hood and sole manipulator of the controls, and it is agreed the other pilot is legally PIC (ie responsible for the safe conduct of the flight) BOTH pilots can log PIC. If the pilot flying is also responsible for the flight, the other safety pilot cannot log PIC, just SIC. This comes from the fact that in VMC (even on an IFR flight plan) you are responsible for separation from VFR traffic in the same airspace. As the guy under the hood cannot possibly separate, then the second pilot becomes required crew, the safety pilot if you will.
Now if you are in IMC ("actual"), only one of the pilots can log PIC. That will be the pilot manipulating the controls. As you are in IMC, ATC becomes responsible for separation (from other IFR traffic) and there is no safety pilot required - even if he handles the radios.
So if you are looking to build hours by both logging PIC, you want to avoid IMC (or actual IFR). Of course, the logbook system is an honour system, but I certainly would not abuse this.
As for $120 per hour for a duchess, this sounds cheap. Are they insured? There are outfits out there who put a CFI in the back seat so there are actually three people logging PIC!
Legal PIC (right seat, safety pilot)
Sole Manipulator of Controls under hood (left seat)
Instructor in the back, saying turn left 120
That puts it up to $180 per hour, which is quite doable and should give the operator a profit.
Naturally this is an 'FAA centric' opinion, from my understanding of CAA logging, it would be quite different. Clear as mud?
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
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Sim_Slag:
Now that you've explained things that way, then yes, I agree the deal as advertised does appear reasonable.
For those of us living under FARs, it actually looks like an excellent deal, provided one has $6000 to part with all at one go. However.... You guys from abroad who are trying to comply with a different set of rules back home would end up getting shorted far more time than it's worth.
Now that you've explained things that way, then yes, I agree the deal as advertised does appear reasonable.
For those of us living under FARs, it actually looks like an excellent deal, provided one has $6000 to part with all at one go. However.... You guys from abroad who are trying to comply with a different set of rules back home would end up getting shorted far more time than it's worth.
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Now I gotta admit my info is entirely hearsay and a bit crusty. But I heard some major bad things about Ari Ben on another message board for flight schools. I'm not talking just things like slackness of training. I actually hear they took the money of some of the students and just didn't deliver. I don't know how on Earth anyone could get away with that, but someone who posted was in the midst of sueing the school. I also heard some pretty wacked out story about an instructor putting a gun to a students' head....think it was some money affair.
There were plenty of people willing to speak openly against Ari Ben Aviator, but I can't vouch for any one of them so obviously take this with a pinch of salt. Still, all I can say is....if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
There were plenty of people willing to speak openly against Ari Ben Aviator, but I can't vouch for any one of them so obviously take this with a pinch of salt. Still, all I can say is....if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
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I have used Air Desert Pacific in La Verne, California. They will rent you a Seneca for a 100 Hour Block at $110.99 wet per hour. Not only is this cheaper than the above mentioned deal, you can take the aircraft away for as long as you like as long as you put at least 4 hours per day on the hobbs. Aircraft are OK and its a fantastic location.
The Bumblebee
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You can do time building in a twin and both of you log the time under the FAA system as long as one of you is under the hood. Under the FAA system, both of you can log the time, one logs the time under simulated instruments and the other pilot logs it as safety pilot.
As far as I know two pilots cannot log the flight time at the same time under CAA/JAA syste unless the plane is certified for Multi Crew.
I hope this helps. Although it is completely legal in one country, it could back fire in the other, so be cautious.
As far as I know two pilots cannot log the flight time at the same time under CAA/JAA syste unless the plane is certified for Multi Crew.
I hope this helps. Although it is completely legal in one country, it could back fire in the other, so be cautious.
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Ari-Ben Aviator
Hello
I´m considering enrolling AriBen Aviator in Florida this summer, since they offer cheap FAA training and a job a an instructor afterwards. Does enyone have anything to say about this school?
http://www.aribenaviator.com/
regards
Jannik
I´m considering enrolling AriBen Aviator in Florida this summer, since they offer cheap FAA training and a job a an instructor afterwards. Does enyone have anything to say about this school?
http://www.aribenaviator.com/
regards
Jannik
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Jannik,
Don't know anything about that school, however the link below to Pan am flight academy should be useful. I had a look around their school and facilities last year and they are very impressive. If you are considdering doing all of you licences at the same time and then instructing the this place is reccomended.
http://www.panamacademy.com/
However if you're just after a bit of cheap flying or just doing you're PPL the try the old favourate at Britannia, in Winterhaven, Fl. Always an adventure there!!
http://www.britanniaflightcentre.com/
Hope this is of help.
BD
Don't know anything about that school, however the link below to Pan am flight academy should be useful. I had a look around their school and facilities last year and they are very impressive. If you are considdering doing all of you licences at the same time and then instructing the this place is reccomended.
http://www.panamacademy.com/
However if you're just after a bit of cheap flying or just doing you're PPL the try the old favourate at Britannia, in Winterhaven, Fl. Always an adventure there!!
http://www.britanniaflightcentre.com/
Hope this is of help.
BD
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Jannik - I'd look at the following message boards before deciding on Pan Am
flightinfo.com
jetcareers.com
ilsapproach.com
ufly.com
I had a few friends that went to Pan Am and believe me they had more than their decent share of trouble. I would recommend against it.
flightinfo.com
jetcareers.com
ilsapproach.com
ufly.com
I had a few friends that went to Pan Am and believe me they had more than their decent share of trouble. I would recommend against it.
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I've had experience with Airi Ben Aviator and it was all great. Good FAA instructors, great equipment and very organized program. The chief Pilot is French and extremely good. Overall a very good option to the expensive Flight Safety/Pan Am programs. They are very well thought of throughout the FL area and the FSDA at Orlando says only good things about them.
The Bumblebee
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Jannik,
I do not know much about Ari Ben Aviator. However, we've had many instructor come and work for us from North American Institute of Aviation. In the past three years we have hired many instructors and all of them were very good instructors. I spoke to all of them and every single instructor was happy with the school too. If you like you can check out their website at www.naiasc.com
If you are willing to wait I suggest going to Naples Air Center. They are also part 141 school and I heard that they are waiting for their J-1 Visa approval.
Good luck with your flying
Cheers,
Jatin
I do not know much about Ari Ben Aviator. However, we've had many instructor come and work for us from North American Institute of Aviation. In the past three years we have hired many instructors and all of them were very good instructors. I spoke to all of them and every single instructor was happy with the school too. If you like you can check out their website at www.naiasc.com
If you are willing to wait I suggest going to Naples Air Center. They are also part 141 school and I heard that they are waiting for their J-1 Visa approval.
Good luck with your flying
Cheers,
Jatin
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Hey Jannik,
i agree with Big Dick on panamacademy i've been there training although not in a FAA program, but with the KLM flight academy JAA program. They may have done a little bit more for us, but the facilities are very good over there so the FAA programs should be good as well. The planes are nice, most of them less then 3 years old!
Just the fact that Fort Pierce is not the place to be, if you want to have some fun could be a disadvantage but that may help you actually study
i agree with Big Dick on panamacademy i've been there training although not in a FAA program, but with the KLM flight academy JAA program. They may have done a little bit more for us, but the facilities are very good over there so the FAA programs should be good as well. The planes are nice, most of them less then 3 years old!
Just the fact that Fort Pierce is not the place to be, if you want to have some fun could be a disadvantage but that may help you actually study
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Did the multi engine add on to my commercial and instrument rating there about 3 years ago and had no problems. Accounting was all straight forward and uncomplicated. Didn't have as many aircraft on line as they'd said but it didn't turn out to be problem. Some of the aircraft looked a bit tired but I don't think I ever lost a flight.