Multi Crew Pilot Licence (MCL)
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So the MPL gives you the Privilege to seat on the right seat of an Airliner. But for going on the left seat your training on sim give only a credit of 100 hours if I understand RVR 800.
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The theory is you get on the RHS with an MPL fly for an airline for 1500 hrs get your ATPL via the airline build your RHS hrs and get ready for upgrade to LHS.
MPL is targeted to reduce VFR training and focus on airline style flying ..2 crew ops on a jet IFR based etc.
GA pilots will continue to go the normal route of CPL then ATPL self funded TR etc
MPL is targeted to reduce VFR training and focus on airline style flying ..2 crew ops on a jet IFR based etc.
GA pilots will continue to go the normal route of CPL then ATPL self funded TR etc
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To add my 5 P's worth: a number of airlines recently asked by a British FTO answered that in its "current" form, they would NOT be interested in MPL-trained FOs...
Seems that ICAO's drive to introduce the MPL may face an uphill struggle with a number of operators - at least this side of the pond.
I can't help but think, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Cheers
Seems that ICAO's drive to introduce the MPL may face an uphill struggle with a number of operators - at least this side of the pond.
I can't help but think, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Cheers
"Seems that ICAO's drive to introduce the MPL may face an uphill struggle with a number of operators - at least this side of the pond."
My understanding is that one of the main pushers for the MPL IS from this side of the pond - namely Lufthansa.
My understanding is that one of the main pushers for the MPL IS from this side of the pond - namely Lufthansa.
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Alteon is pushing it hard, LFT is part of development team SQ in Asia is doing work on it...
Its mostly aimed towards Asia & Middle East markets no genral aviation and huge shortage of ab-initio pilots
Its mostly aimed towards Asia & Middle East markets no genral aviation and huge shortage of ab-initio pilots
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Yes,
in SE ASIA, ALTEON, but also CAE are pushing and are preparing heavy investments.
The target is maybe CHINA as flying in China does not appeared a simple affair!!! (PANAM nearby Beijing is experimenting the issue!!)
The American have found a way to stop the influence of the JAR licensing system with the help of Lufhtansa!!!
But the error is that it does not suit most of the South asian Goverments because they want ASAP local on the Left seat and the MPL prepares for the Right seat.
After listening all the sellers of the MPL, I have concluded that it is level FAA plus a varnish named TEM evolution of CRM courses plus a Type Rating: most of the theoretical knowledge has disappeared from the MPL syllabus.
On the costing side, it is not obvious:
MPL + (Package to go on the Left seat )= how much?
(And this capsule will have to be done few years later, do you like to go back to school 4 or 5 years after you enter in the job?)
All Europeans should resist this demolition of the JAR standard.
in SE ASIA, ALTEON, but also CAE are pushing and are preparing heavy investments.
The target is maybe CHINA as flying in China does not appeared a simple affair!!! (PANAM nearby Beijing is experimenting the issue!!)
The American have found a way to stop the influence of the JAR licensing system with the help of Lufhtansa!!!
But the error is that it does not suit most of the South asian Goverments because they want ASAP local on the Left seat and the MPL prepares for the Right seat.
After listening all the sellers of the MPL, I have concluded that it is level FAA plus a varnish named TEM evolution of CRM courses plus a Type Rating: most of the theoretical knowledge has disappeared from the MPL syllabus.
On the costing side, it is not obvious:
MPL + (Package to go on the Left seat )= how much?
(And this capsule will have to be done few years later, do you like to go back to school 4 or 5 years after you enter in the job?)
All Europeans should resist this demolition of the JAR standard.
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Originally Posted by ASIAN FROG
After listening all the sellers of the MPL, I have concluded that it is level FAA plus a varnish named TEM evolution of CRM courses plus a Type Rating: most of the theoretical knowledge has disappeared from the MPL syllabus.
Groundloop - Virtually all of the pressure in Europe for the MPL is coming from LH, mainly because they already have the infrastructure in place to conduct the courses, with plenty of spare capacity for synthetic training. As FougaMagister suggested, enthusiasm in the rest of the European airline industry is, at best, lukewarm and getting cooler as more details are emerging. There are, to the best of my knowledge, two UK-based training providers that are actively pursuing approval for the MPL and both are seeking to conduct the bulk of the training in the third world.
So far as the bulk of wannabees is concerned, the MPL will not be relevant - it will only be financially viable for airline sponsored training and will give the holder very restricted privileges.
So far as the bulk of wannabees is concerned, the MPL will not be relevant - it will only be financially viable for airline sponsored training and will give the holder very restricted privileges.
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Flopsie,
Which ATPL level? The FAA one? A joke...
For your information I have been briefed on the contents by several sellers visiting the SE Asia. CONTENTS as seen per them= mainly OPERATIONAL (the Ground school of the Type Rating)+ the TEM, the theory is very, very limited -something like the FAA ATPL (100 h of theory- same that the JAR PPL) just in order to understand the very basic of the Type Rating.
It is really a Monkey Pilot Licence
Which ATPL level? The FAA one? A joke...
For your information I have been briefed on the contents by several sellers visiting the SE Asia. CONTENTS as seen per them= mainly OPERATIONAL (the Ground school of the Type Rating)+ the TEM, the theory is very, very limited -something like the FAA ATPL (100 h of theory- same that the JAR PPL) just in order to understand the very basic of the Type Rating.
It is really a Monkey Pilot Licence
Last edited by ASIAN FROG; 16th May 2006 at 15:40.
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Originally Posted by ASIAN FROG
Flopsie,
Which ATPL level? The FAA one? A joke...
For your information I have been briefed on the contents by several sellers visiting the SE Asia. CONTENTS as seen per them= mainly OPERATIONAL (the Ground school of the Type Rating)+ the TEM, the theory is very, very limited -something like the FAA ATPL (100 h of theory- same that the JAR PPL) just in order to understand the very basic of the Type Rating.
It is really a Monkey Pilot Licence
Which ATPL level? The FAA one? A joke...
For your information I have been briefed on the contents by several sellers visiting the SE Asia. CONTENTS as seen per them= mainly OPERATIONAL (the Ground school of the Type Rating)+ the TEM, the theory is very, very limited -something like the FAA ATPL (100 h of theory- same that the JAR PPL) just in order to understand the very basic of the Type Rating.
It is really a Monkey Pilot Licence
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Flopsie,
1) MPL is a proposed new international standard the same everywhere
2) The fact that the JAR standard is attractive gives jobs to Europeans easily compared to FAA Licences owners. True in the Middle East, true in SE and Eastern Asia. Plenty of Europeans are currently staffing Airlines and schools. American are loosing grip. Example Hong Kong, Malaysia, Vietnam wants a closed to JAR standard for its cadets....Only very experienced FAA Licences holders are accepted. ...Numerous threads on this topics. Middle East,...the JAR Licence is the reference, local schools and Airlines are taking reference to JAR!
3) JAR Standard has been a real improvement and is gaining momentum. On safety issues it is a plus compared to the ICAO or FAA standard
4) A low level of licence is also the perspective of low salaries at the end
Our planet is a village now, it is a global market. If the Americans are pushing so strongly behind the MPL it is because they are loosing influence with their FAA licence. They have found a new trojan horse...the MPL
1) MPL is a proposed new international standard the same everywhere
2) The fact that the JAR standard is attractive gives jobs to Europeans easily compared to FAA Licences owners. True in the Middle East, true in SE and Eastern Asia. Plenty of Europeans are currently staffing Airlines and schools. American are loosing grip. Example Hong Kong, Malaysia, Vietnam wants a closed to JAR standard for its cadets....Only very experienced FAA Licences holders are accepted. ...Numerous threads on this topics. Middle East,...the JAR Licence is the reference, local schools and Airlines are taking reference to JAR!
3) JAR Standard has been a real improvement and is gaining momentum. On safety issues it is a plus compared to the ICAO or FAA standard
4) A low level of licence is also the perspective of low salaries at the end
Our planet is a village now, it is a global market. If the Americans are pushing so strongly behind the MPL it is because they are loosing influence with their FAA licence. They have found a new trojan horse...the MPL
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Originally Posted by ASIAN FROG
Flopsie,
1) MPL is a proposed new international standard the same everywhere
2) The fact that the JAR standard is attractive gives jobs to Europeans easily compared to FAA Licences owners. True in the Middle East, true in SE and Eastern Asia. Plenty of Europeans are currently staffing Airlines and schools. American are loosing grip. Example Hong Kong, Malaysia, Vietnam wants a closed to JAR standard for its cadets....Only very experienced FAA Licences holders are accepted. ...Numerous threads on this topics. Middle East,...the JAR Licence is the reference, local schools and Airlines are taking reference to JAR!
3) JAR Standard has been a real improvement and is gaining momentum. On safety issues it is a plus compared to the ICAO or FAA standard
4) A low level of licence is also the perspective of low salaries at the end
Our planet is a village now, it is a global market. If the Americans are pushing so strongly behind the MPL it is because they are loosing influence with their FAA licence. They have found a new trojan horse...the MPL
1) MPL is a proposed new international standard the same everywhere
2) The fact that the JAR standard is attractive gives jobs to Europeans easily compared to FAA Licences owners. True in the Middle East, true in SE and Eastern Asia. Plenty of Europeans are currently staffing Airlines and schools. American are loosing grip. Example Hong Kong, Malaysia, Vietnam wants a closed to JAR standard for its cadets....Only very experienced FAA Licences holders are accepted. ...Numerous threads on this topics. Middle East,...the JAR Licence is the reference, local schools and Airlines are taking reference to JAR!
3) JAR Standard has been a real improvement and is gaining momentum. On safety issues it is a plus compared to the ICAO or FAA standard
4) A low level of licence is also the perspective of low salaries at the end
Our planet is a village now, it is a global market. If the Americans are pushing so strongly behind the MPL it is because they are loosing influence with their FAA licence. They have found a new trojan horse...the MPL
What the Americans or Asians do with their MPL syllabus is not of much interest to European airlines, since the MPL will be an airline sponsored course and tailored to the airline requirements. Once again, I suggest you read the previous thread on the MPL (the search function does work very well) which covers in depth the European perspective of the MPL.
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Flopsie,
Apparently the presentation of MPL here is not only dedicated to Airlines sponsorised cadets. It is also presented as an alternate for self sponsorised cadets because they will have a type rating in the package. the trend is there, already AIR ASIA recruits malaysian self sponsorised students AT THE CONDITION THEY PAY 75 000 Ringgits (Half the cost of a TR in plus of their CPL/IR paid by themselves).
We can guess that the MPL is going to be proposed also to private students (Big Business like ALTEON or CAE will certainly do....)
I am happy you told me that the JAR ATPL knowledge is included for Europe, but here it is the FAA ATPL. So we will have to distinguish a JAR MPL, an ICAO MPL and a FAA MPL.
What about the merging of licences and the meetings FAA/JAA to make an "IPL"? We should stop to spend the money of European citizens and keep at home Administration officers meeting regularly on this project as at the first opportunity, everybody make again its own standard!!!!
Apparently the presentation of MPL here is not only dedicated to Airlines sponsorised cadets. It is also presented as an alternate for self sponsorised cadets because they will have a type rating in the package. the trend is there, already AIR ASIA recruits malaysian self sponsorised students AT THE CONDITION THEY PAY 75 000 Ringgits (Half the cost of a TR in plus of their CPL/IR paid by themselves).
We can guess that the MPL is going to be proposed also to private students (Big Business like ALTEON or CAE will certainly do....)
I am happy you told me that the JAR ATPL knowledge is included for Europe, but here it is the FAA ATPL. So we will have to distinguish a JAR MPL, an ICAO MPL and a FAA MPL.
What about the merging of licences and the meetings FAA/JAA to make an "IPL"? We should stop to spend the money of European citizens and keep at home Administration officers meeting regularly on this project as at the first opportunity, everybody make again its own standard!!!!
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New MPL license (Multi Pilot License)?
Does anyone have any information on the new MPL (Multi Pilot License) that is rumoured to be in the pipeline. The 2006/2007 'Learn to Fly' magazine (a spin off publication from 'Flyer') mentions the rumour as being a fast track license that bypasses the traditional fATPL route, getting you in the right hand seat of a commercial airliner with just 70 hours flight time.
It suggests the new license will encompas ground school exams the same as the current ATPL, but will bypass PPL, CPL and other ratings and licenses. This would mean you would be qualified to fly a commercial airliner but not a light aircraft.
The artical also suggests that the requirement for the MPL may have come from the airlines themselves. Does this mean there is a genuine lack of fATPL pilots (the wannabe forums suggest not), or do the airlines just want a quicker and cheaper way of getting pilots trained?
As someone who is about to embark on the fATPL route (I need to save some more money first!), this route does seem quite interesting. That said, I belive a MPL pilot would not be permitted to progress to the position of Captain, so it is restricting from a career perspective.
Any further rumours or information on this would be appreciated.
It suggests the new license will encompas ground school exams the same as the current ATPL, but will bypass PPL, CPL and other ratings and licenses. This would mean you would be qualified to fly a commercial airliner but not a light aircraft.
The artical also suggests that the requirement for the MPL may have come from the airlines themselves. Does this mean there is a genuine lack of fATPL pilots (the wannabe forums suggest not), or do the airlines just want a quicker and cheaper way of getting pilots trained?
As someone who is about to embark on the fATPL route (I need to save some more money first!), this route does seem quite interesting. That said, I belive a MPL pilot would not be permitted to progress to the position of Captain, so it is restricting from a career perspective.
Any further rumours or information on this would be appreciated.
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Originally Posted by ASIAN FROG
Flopsie,
So we will have to distinguish a JAR MPL, an ICAO MPL and a FAA MPL.
So we will have to distinguish a JAR MPL, an ICAO MPL and a FAA MPL.
The chief difference I see in the discussions to date, is that JAR MPL appears it will only be available in an Integrated variant, most likely with airline mentoring, tagging or sponsorship of some sort.
JAR ATPL via CPL/MEP/IR/MCC in both self-funded Modular and Integrated variants will most likely continue.
I can therefore see no reason to get up in arms about MPL. It is simply a new choice that will be available. If it turns out that airlines will assist in any way at all with the cost, then some people will choose to train this way, but the rest can continue under currently available training methods.
From an adequacy of training or safety point of view, many people have valid concerns and reasons to get up in arms over MPL. Discussing these points is quite useful and needful, but let's drop the Europe vs. other parts of the world hyperbole as MPL is neither an alien invasion of JAR nor overseas protectionism.
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Overseas Europeans
In SE Asia, the JAR licences are attractive and are reference of quality. But today, I see some american travellers visiting the schools and some investors (investors in general with a limited knowledge of professional aviation), in order to promote a "MPL" which is a source of profit. Sure, it is not directly affecting Europe, but indirectly yes, as the confusion is introduced about quality, modernism. More,numerous young Flight Intructors with a JAR licence are currently finding a job in the region.
On the Ground Studies side, as the local proposal of MPL is based on the FAA licence + the Ground training of the initial type rating, most of the theoretical knowledge is trashed compared to a syllabus style CAP 509 (UK-CAA International).( I do not compare with the JAR!!!)
On the flying side, I am a defender of simulator in the training up to a certain extent, I fight an excess. It is clear that experiences of real flights must be gained, particularly because we are human being and when we are in a simulator, our subconscient knows that the risks are nil which is not the case when the young cadet is flying in navigation in a Monsoon environment , with the fear to be lost and fuel to manage. ( Some other circumstances could have been choosen as example).
Real surpassing of the stress has to be implemented, in order the decision making is not influenced by personnality, real flying is really important. Yes, the simulator is a wonderful tool for Instrument training, yes some dangerous situations can be depicted without any risk, but this is the problem...the risk is nil and will the behavior of the young pilot be the same in an aggressive situation? Everybody knows "the quietness of the old soldiers compared to the new recruits tension".
In summary, an equilibrium is necessary between flying and simulation and you cannot limit your view to Europe only... a lot of Europeans are concerned by what happens overseas. It is important that the European standards are promoted worldwide, it is employment for a lot of people.
Thank You.
On the Ground Studies side, as the local proposal of MPL is based on the FAA licence + the Ground training of the initial type rating, most of the theoretical knowledge is trashed compared to a syllabus style CAP 509 (UK-CAA International).( I do not compare with the JAR!!!)
On the flying side, I am a defender of simulator in the training up to a certain extent, I fight an excess. It is clear that experiences of real flights must be gained, particularly because we are human being and when we are in a simulator, our subconscient knows that the risks are nil which is not the case when the young cadet is flying in navigation in a Monsoon environment , with the fear to be lost and fuel to manage. ( Some other circumstances could have been choosen as example).
Real surpassing of the stress has to be implemented, in order the decision making is not influenced by personnality, real flying is really important. Yes, the simulator is a wonderful tool for Instrument training, yes some dangerous situations can be depicted without any risk, but this is the problem...the risk is nil and will the behavior of the young pilot be the same in an aggressive situation? Everybody knows "the quietness of the old soldiers compared to the new recruits tension".
In summary, an equilibrium is necessary between flying and simulation and you cannot limit your view to Europe only... a lot of Europeans are concerned by what happens overseas. It is important that the European standards are promoted worldwide, it is employment for a lot of people.
Thank You.
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What do pilots think of the new MPL licence?
Hi everyone.
I'm in my third year at uni studying BA (Hons) Air Transport With Pilot Training at BCUC. The time has come to begin my dissertation. I'm trying to find a good area to foccus my research on, i was gonna look at the new MPL or commercial pilot training in general. What do pilots think of the new MPL course? Good? Bad? A way forward in commerical pilot training? I'm still researching the whole thing at the moment, would appreciate any comments and suggestions on the topic, or any other areas suitable for a level three project.
Cheers.
I'm in my third year at uni studying BA (Hons) Air Transport With Pilot Training at BCUC. The time has come to begin my dissertation. I'm trying to find a good area to foccus my research on, i was gonna look at the new MPL or commercial pilot training in general. What do pilots think of the new MPL course? Good? Bad? A way forward in commerical pilot training? I'm still researching the whole thing at the moment, would appreciate any comments and suggestions on the topic, or any other areas suitable for a level three project.
Cheers.
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Shortcut or Fast Track?
A new ICAO initiative aims at nothing less than a complete overhaul in the way in which commercial air transport pilots are trained and licensed.
By Oliver Sutton, Air Transport World, October 2005, p.51
http://www.atwonline.com/channels/tr...articleID=1428
By Oliver Sutton, Air Transport World, October 2005, p.51
http://www.atwonline.com/channels/tr...articleID=1428
Last edited by scroggs; 29th Sep 2006 at 07:22. Reason: Huge cut'n'paste. People know how to use links...
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MPL Summary so far
Hi All
Perhaps it will be useful to summarise where we seem to be with this issue so far.
The fundamental premise behind the licence is that the traditional FATPL + Type rating route to the right seat of an airliner is not as focussed on that task as it could be because it has to equip the licence holder to fly single crew, public transport, in command. The MPL premise is that if all the training from day one is aimed at producing an effective co-pilot then the training needs to have the 'footprint' necessary for that task - unsurprisingly, it turns out that it should be shorter and cheaper to train up for the MPL (which of course includes the type rating) than to do the FATPL+Type rating. The savings come largely from the use of appropriate simulators versus multi-engined aircraft.
A quick analysis of the MPL syllabus shows that it follows in a different way the learning associated with PPL, Night, Basic Aeros, IMC, CPL+I/R, JOC, MCC, Type Rating. The MPL puts the emphasis during training in a different place - Human-Factors, Multi-Crew Threat & Error Management and confident competence in a multi-crew airline style environment.
The licence is not particularly suited to any one group of pilots on either cultural or regional grounds. However, given that around 4000 new pilots per year will be coming from Asia and the Pacific Rim, it is easy to see that structuring pilot training from beginning to the airline under one umbrella (so continuity of training culture etc) has significant advantages and economy of scale. I don't mean to be critical but one or two of the earlier comments seem to suggest that there is something inferior in the MPL. I can see why different might feel inferior, but I'd prefer simply to see it as just different and in fact better at producing an effective co-pilot as soon as possible.
National regulators have already decided how to identify the convertibility of ICAO v EASA MPL licences to the 'classic licences' so although the mud has still to settle, no-one should feel that they have to make a career limiting choice in enrolling on either a classic course or an MPL course.
None of this would be fun without addressing the piloting skills implicit in both licences. My feel for this is that they are neither better nor worse, just different. And each can become the other if they so desire. In case that doesn't sound controversial enough; my experience of FATPL cadets is that they come to the airline with very low team/crm/situational skills that time in the multi-crew environment puts right. My expectation is that MPL cadets will come with good team/crm/sa skills and take some time to get used to flying in real clouds, real turbulence and real disorientation - they will always however have the Senior Member present. In the case where Sir has gone for his physiological relief and FATPL or MPL are alone and (hopefully not all at once!) the aircraft depressurises, the fire bell rings, the TCAS RA, the engine failure at high gross weight with small margins etc.....will either fare better? Answers on a postcard. I expect it will probably be the person with the best self-discipline (is current in recall drills/SOPs and has thought about what to do when bad stuff happens other than during the conversion course).
So, as someone who has been involved in planning to deliver MPL training within the foreseeable future, I am optimistic that it will be a way of producing good quality airline pilots at a cost both the individual and the airline will be willing to pay. Perhaps this debate will have teeth when the first group of MPL trainees have a year in the right seat under their belts and then again when that first group go on their command courses.
Isn't great that after all these years we continue to try stuff that pushes boundaries and comfort zones...
TT
Perhaps it will be useful to summarise where we seem to be with this issue so far.
The fundamental premise behind the licence is that the traditional FATPL + Type rating route to the right seat of an airliner is not as focussed on that task as it could be because it has to equip the licence holder to fly single crew, public transport, in command. The MPL premise is that if all the training from day one is aimed at producing an effective co-pilot then the training needs to have the 'footprint' necessary for that task - unsurprisingly, it turns out that it should be shorter and cheaper to train up for the MPL (which of course includes the type rating) than to do the FATPL+Type rating. The savings come largely from the use of appropriate simulators versus multi-engined aircraft.
A quick analysis of the MPL syllabus shows that it follows in a different way the learning associated with PPL, Night, Basic Aeros, IMC, CPL+I/R, JOC, MCC, Type Rating. The MPL puts the emphasis during training in a different place - Human-Factors, Multi-Crew Threat & Error Management and confident competence in a multi-crew airline style environment.
The licence is not particularly suited to any one group of pilots on either cultural or regional grounds. However, given that around 4000 new pilots per year will be coming from Asia and the Pacific Rim, it is easy to see that structuring pilot training from beginning to the airline under one umbrella (so continuity of training culture etc) has significant advantages and economy of scale. I don't mean to be critical but one or two of the earlier comments seem to suggest that there is something inferior in the MPL. I can see why different might feel inferior, but I'd prefer simply to see it as just different and in fact better at producing an effective co-pilot as soon as possible.
National regulators have already decided how to identify the convertibility of ICAO v EASA MPL licences to the 'classic licences' so although the mud has still to settle, no-one should feel that they have to make a career limiting choice in enrolling on either a classic course or an MPL course.
None of this would be fun without addressing the piloting skills implicit in both licences. My feel for this is that they are neither better nor worse, just different. And each can become the other if they so desire. In case that doesn't sound controversial enough; my experience of FATPL cadets is that they come to the airline with very low team/crm/situational skills that time in the multi-crew environment puts right. My expectation is that MPL cadets will come with good team/crm/sa skills and take some time to get used to flying in real clouds, real turbulence and real disorientation - they will always however have the Senior Member present. In the case where Sir has gone for his physiological relief and FATPL or MPL are alone and (hopefully not all at once!) the aircraft depressurises, the fire bell rings, the TCAS RA, the engine failure at high gross weight with small margins etc.....will either fare better? Answers on a postcard. I expect it will probably be the person with the best self-discipline (is current in recall drills/SOPs and has thought about what to do when bad stuff happens other than during the conversion course).
So, as someone who has been involved in planning to deliver MPL training within the foreseeable future, I am optimistic that it will be a way of producing good quality airline pilots at a cost both the individual and the airline will be willing to pay. Perhaps this debate will have teeth when the first group of MPL trainees have a year in the right seat under their belts and then again when that first group go on their command courses.
Isn't great that after all these years we continue to try stuff that pushes boundaries and comfort zones...
TT