Importance of ATPL theory results?
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No i'm not.
Sorry, when I said interview, I meant aptitude testing.
Before a candidate is called for interview they are aptitude tested, so that should give a clearer picture and help in the decision making.
A "pass average"is not a official statistic from the CAA and very hard to prove, as I said, any joker can put down on their CV they got a "100% pass average".
No, No, No, NOOOOOOOOOO(ala tom mallory)
Sorry, when I said interview, I meant aptitude testing.
Before a candidate is called for interview they are aptitude tested, so that should give a clearer picture and help in the decision making.
A "pass average"is not a official statistic from the CAA and very hard to prove, as I said, any joker can put down on their CV they got a "100% pass average".
Don't listen to Pipergirl folks. I know for a fact that her exam prep technique is to hang around canal towpaths drinking cans of lager and laughing uproariously.
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by G-SPOT
i dont, although from my experience of running a business, you take dont bring in every applicant who has sent you a cv, you bring in the one with the best qualifications.
I think its important for people to realise that not every one can be a pilot, it takes a special kind of person, not the kind who enters into name calling on internet forums "spotty".
i dont, although from my experience of running a business, you take dont bring in every applicant who has sent you a cv, you bring in the one with the best qualifications.
I think its important for people to realise that not every one can be a pilot, it takes a special kind of person, not the kind who enters into name calling on internet forums "spotty".
Selection of candidates for interview is based on many things, and some of them can be a bit esoteric. Not having a licence (or any of the other basic requirements) would obviously exclude you automatically. For those pilots with no relevant experience, educational qualifications may come into play. However, ATPL exam results (other than a 'pass') generally do not. I can't say they never do, because someone will find an example of a company that once asked for them, but I have never heard of a company that does - and I've been in this business for some considerable time, as Pipergirl kindly pointed out. Now I feel old!
As for that 'special kind of person', G-SPOT (that better?), do you think you're one? Really? If you regard 'Spotty' as name-calling, I think you may have to work on your sensitivity issues!
Scroggs
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Not having read much info about theese exams, as I am planning to do them next year after I get a PPL, are they all multi-choice exams as per the PPL's. or are they written??
IMHO you should always aim for 100%, not for anything like one-upmanship, or god complex etc etc, but the simple fact that knowing and UNDERSTANDING all aspects about a subject must be far better than scraping a 75% pass, with a few lucky guesses etc?? Like eveerything else in life, there is always somthing new left to learn about anything......... and thinking you know it all is the fastest way to a fall.
IMHO you should always aim for 100%, not for anything like one-upmanship, or god complex etc etc, but the simple fact that knowing and UNDERSTANDING all aspects about a subject must be far better than scraping a 75% pass, with a few lucky guesses etc?? Like eveerything else in life, there is always somthing new left to learn about anything......... and thinking you know it all is the fastest way to a fall.
Kengineer,
Aiming for 100% is obviously admirable but when you see the sheer volume of material you'll realise that passing all the exams at the first attempt is achievement enough. Furthermore, whilst there is much of value in the content, there is also a massive volume of detail which is simply not required from the modern commercial pilot. Can't remember the last time I used grid navigation or calculated transport wander!
Incidentally, I was an engineer in the RAF until a few months ago. Hopefully, you should find your service training and attitude useful if you pursue a career in commercial aviation.
Aiming for 100% is obviously admirable but when you see the sheer volume of material you'll realise that passing all the exams at the first attempt is achievement enough. Furthermore, whilst there is much of value in the content, there is also a massive volume of detail which is simply not required from the modern commercial pilot. Can't remember the last time I used grid navigation or calculated transport wander!
Incidentally, I was an engineer in the RAF until a few months ago. Hopefully, you should find your service training and attitude useful if you pursue a career in commercial aviation.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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I suspect that most of the people worrying about whether grades are important haven’t actually sat the exams yet. Once they have, they might appreciate just how much luck is involved in some of the results.
In the Comms subjects, there are so few questions that the difference between a very high score and a fail could be just 3 or 4 wrong answers. Yes you could quite easily hit 100%, but throw in a few random nasty questions and you could get 74%.
In Performance how many graph questions will there be? Are they simple calculations from some of the better produced graphs, or are they time-consuming ones from one of the many dodgy graphs in the CAP? How close is the answer spread? Does one obvious answer jump out, or are they all very close together, forcing you to guess a ‘three pointer’?
In General Nav how many plotting / calculation questions will there be, as opposed to simple ‘do I know the answer to this one?’ type questions? Too many calculation questions, and you risk running out of time, like many candidates in my exam.
Does your ‘lucky’ subject come up? In my Radio Nav exam, there were no less than 10 questions on GPS. Great if GPS is your thing (apart from the question with 2 correct answers)
but you’d be in trouble if you’d concentrated your revision on RNAV and the workings of DME.
In Law, learn 600 feedback questions and you’ll pass. Easier said than done, so say you manage to memorise 300 of them. How many of your 300 come up – enough to pass? General knowledge is not going to help you in law (unless you’re an ATCO).
By the way, my favourite from the ‘random question generator’ was in Ops Procedures:
Question 1: “In Minimum Navigation Performance Specification (MNPS) airspace . . . blah blah blah . . .”
Question 2: “What does MNPS stand for?”
Obviously hard work and revision help, as does good feedback – together with coaching from the groundschool, it can help you spot a dodgy question a mile off – but an awful lot of it is down to the random nature of the questions. I was very lucky, I didn’t get any of the ‘horror-story’ exams you sometimes hear about, and I passed them all first time with good grades. However, I’m certain that on a different day, with a slightly different question mix, I’d have been borderline on some subjects, and would have failed others.
Honestly, in the ATPLS, a four leaf clover and lucky rabbit’s foot are as important as a wizzwheel and sharp pencil. Do your best, by all means aim for 100%, but it’s the pass that matters. Pass the exams, tick the box, move on.
In the Comms subjects, there are so few questions that the difference between a very high score and a fail could be just 3 or 4 wrong answers. Yes you could quite easily hit 100%, but throw in a few random nasty questions and you could get 74%.
In Performance how many graph questions will there be? Are they simple calculations from some of the better produced graphs, or are they time-consuming ones from one of the many dodgy graphs in the CAP? How close is the answer spread? Does one obvious answer jump out, or are they all very close together, forcing you to guess a ‘three pointer’?
In General Nav how many plotting / calculation questions will there be, as opposed to simple ‘do I know the answer to this one?’ type questions? Too many calculation questions, and you risk running out of time, like many candidates in my exam.
Does your ‘lucky’ subject come up? In my Radio Nav exam, there were no less than 10 questions on GPS. Great if GPS is your thing (apart from the question with 2 correct answers)
but you’d be in trouble if you’d concentrated your revision on RNAV and the workings of DME.In Law, learn 600 feedback questions and you’ll pass. Easier said than done, so say you manage to memorise 300 of them. How many of your 300 come up – enough to pass? General knowledge is not going to help you in law (unless you’re an ATCO).
By the way, my favourite from the ‘random question generator’ was in Ops Procedures:
Question 1: “In Minimum Navigation Performance Specification (MNPS) airspace . . . blah blah blah . . .”
Question 2: “What does MNPS stand for?”
Obviously hard work and revision help, as does good feedback – together with coaching from the groundschool, it can help you spot a dodgy question a mile off – but an awful lot of it is down to the random nature of the questions. I was very lucky, I didn’t get any of the ‘horror-story’ exams you sometimes hear about, and I passed them all first time with good grades. However, I’m certain that on a different day, with a slightly different question mix, I’d have been borderline on some subjects, and would have failed others.
Honestly, in the ATPLS, a four leaf clover and lucky rabbit’s foot are as important as a wizzwheel and sharp pencil. Do your best, by all means aim for 100%, but it’s the pass that matters. Pass the exams, tick the box, move on.
Jet Blast Rat
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By the way the most successful of my students in his career so far lost all his passes after taking too long and failing one three times (affected by the FTO where I had started to teach him going bust, so not entirely his fault). He then failed the same subject another 3 times, finally getting through on the last attempt, albeit with a good grade (moral - if you need help, go to an instructor before resits!). His struggle to pass exams did him no harm.
To paraphrase a certain well-known airline recruitment manager, you get interviewed by pilots and all pilots hate groundschool!
To paraphrase a certain well-known airline recruitment manager, you get interviewed by pilots and all pilots hate groundschool!
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I agree with most of the previous posters that you should do your utmost to achieve the best results you can - but your career is hardly going to stall if you don't get the results you want.
However I think the results may be more important the some posters acknowledge. It may not impress the Chief Pilot much but it's exactly the sort of thing that might impress his secretary or someone in the Human Resources department. It might just be one of the things that helps your CV get plucked from the sea of applications that the airlines receive.
Remember also that many self sponsored people have managed to get jobs through CTC's Wings ATP scheme. The application for this is not on their website at the moment but I'm almost certain that you have to include your ATPL pass rates on it. CTC's own cadets achieve a 91.2% average mark. So if you may not be viewed as favorably as you might like if you scrape through with a 77% average.
However I think the results may be more important the some posters acknowledge. It may not impress the Chief Pilot much but it's exactly the sort of thing that might impress his secretary or someone in the Human Resources department. It might just be one of the things that helps your CV get plucked from the sea of applications that the airlines receive.
Remember also that many self sponsored people have managed to get jobs through CTC's Wings ATP scheme. The application for this is not on their website at the moment but I'm almost certain that you have to include your ATPL pass rates on it. CTC's own cadets achieve a 91.2% average mark. So if you may not be viewed as favorably as you might like if you scrape through with a 77% average.
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It is perhaps pertinent to note that the people who think that exam marks are of great importance are currently students with little or no relevant experience, and those who counter that the fact of passing is far more important than the marks are currently engaged in professional aviation. Makes you think, perhaps?
Scroggs
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For those under the misapprehension that recruiters actually sit down and wade throught the hundreds of CVs they get each month, when you actually reach your first job, pop along to HR or the CP's office and watch how it's done.
When a vacancy comes up, hand reaches out, removes wad of CVs from top of 6 inch high pile, starts to contact as many as required for interview session. No contact first time, CV binned or returned to pile.
There may be some random screening, but your ATPL theory results are way down the list of what is important. Even those airlines who have a more structured recruitment process, and use outside agencies for screening, or have a large and unwieldy HR department (like BA), rarely ask for your results in their application forms. At one time or another, I think I've probably applied to all UK based recruiters, and I can only recall once ever having to list all my theory passes.
Reach your own conclusions.
When a vacancy comes up, hand reaches out, removes wad of CVs from top of 6 inch high pile, starts to contact as many as required for interview session. No contact first time, CV binned or returned to pile.
There may be some random screening, but your ATPL theory results are way down the list of what is important. Even those airlines who have a more structured recruitment process, and use outside agencies for screening, or have a large and unwieldy HR department (like BA), rarely ask for your results in their application forms. At one time or another, I think I've probably applied to all UK based recruiters, and I can only recall once ever having to list all my theory passes.
Reach your own conclusions.
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Put in enough effort to get yourself a pass. But the problem is, as you don't know what the questions will be (now that would be nice!), how will you know what to leave out in your preparation so that you end up with 75%? Yes a "Pass" is the is the only thing you need to get a licence but score less than a "Pass" then 100% of ANY effort was wasted.
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A tool like the excellent Bristol ATP online database will give you an idea of your ability to pass the exam. Note that on the Bristol database all questions are worth equally when marked. Also, take a look at the JAA specimen papers to which you can find with answers on the public Bristol forum. The first questions are normally just 1 markers while the last questions are more likely to be more than that.
I think that I know before entering the exam room if I quite likely will pass or very likely will pass an individual exam. Those I thought that I was quite likely to pass I got scores in the low 80's while those I was very likely to pass I got more than 90 percent.
It is not the end of the world if you get 74%. You only have to add another percent of knowledge till the next time you take the exam.
I think that I know before entering the exam room if I quite likely will pass or very likely will pass an individual exam. Those I thought that I was quite likely to pass I got scores in the low 80's while those I was very likely to pass I got more than 90 percent.
It is not the end of the world if you get 74%. You only have to add another percent of knowledge till the next time you take the exam.
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I took that OPs exam - I studied for about 10 - 12 hours a day (incl. Ground School) I focused a lot on OPs and walked out knowing I had passed. However, seeing questions like that made me feel positively cheated.
Yes there is a case suggesting that it's a waste of effort, this is an example of that. But ask yourself this:
Walking out of an exam that you know you need to pass, how will you feel knowing that you aimed for 100% and might possibly get there or there abouts (and at very least passed)?; compared to that wonderful "I need booze to get me through this" emptiness that you get when you realise that studying for just a pass might not have been enough and the next 10 days are going to be spent awake at 3am nursing the bruise left after hours of kicking yourself?
What is the point of selling/remortgaging your house, begging, borrowing (stealing?!) a huge (HUGE!) amount of money to do something half heartedly.
Yes there is a case suggesting that it's a waste of effort, this is an example of that. But ask yourself this:
Walking out of an exam that you know you need to pass, how will you feel knowing that you aimed for 100% and might possibly get there or there abouts (and at very least passed)?; compared to that wonderful "I need booze to get me through this" emptiness that you get when you realise that studying for just a pass might not have been enough and the next 10 days are going to be spent awake at 3am nursing the bruise left after hours of kicking yourself?
What is the point of selling/remortgaging your house, begging, borrowing (stealing?!) a huge (HUGE!) amount of money to do something half heartedly.
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Here, here to everyone on the side of the "yes you need good marks" debate. We all hate ground school. What a tedious journey that one is.
But if one's general attitude to life is: "I'll just scrape by with the bare minimum", then who in the hell would want to employ someone like that anyway.
If anyone has that attitude and wants to be a professional anything, let alone pilot, then I would suggest that they're aiming too high.
As for the argument that all it takes is money to succeed... then look at those who drop out who had the opportunity. One could argue that it only takes money to become a racing driver. But you still have to be the best to win, and to have a winners attitude.
Attaining a job that fulfils many peoples' dreams is a privilege. That's why many people log onto pprune just out of interest and because it is something they would love to be able to do. Pilots are amongst the luckiest individuals on the planet. It may not seem like that to pilots at times. But to those who look up at contrails and dream, they are.
So does anyone who believes that a mere pass is good enough deserve to win a job in an airline? It doesn't matter if you only have a 76% pass, but it is crucial that a determination to be the best you can is a predominant part of a pilots personality. A wing and a prayer attitude aint good enough when 200,000kgs of pax, fuel and composite follows you around at 35000ft.
That said, if you are on an integrated course, your results will help you when the schools recommend their graduates to the guys they supply. Yes, recruitment people prefer an easy life and will jump on a recommendation. Graduates with the best grades and first time IR passes get the best offers. But like all things in life, the more distant exams, are the less important they seem. Experience rules.
That's my twopenneth. Over and out.
But if one's general attitude to life is: "I'll just scrape by with the bare minimum", then who in the hell would want to employ someone like that anyway.
If anyone has that attitude and wants to be a professional anything, let alone pilot, then I would suggest that they're aiming too high.
As for the argument that all it takes is money to succeed... then look at those who drop out who had the opportunity. One could argue that it only takes money to become a racing driver. But you still have to be the best to win, and to have a winners attitude.
Attaining a job that fulfils many peoples' dreams is a privilege. That's why many people log onto pprune just out of interest and because it is something they would love to be able to do. Pilots are amongst the luckiest individuals on the planet. It may not seem like that to pilots at times. But to those who look up at contrails and dream, they are.
So does anyone who believes that a mere pass is good enough deserve to win a job in an airline? It doesn't matter if you only have a 76% pass, but it is crucial that a determination to be the best you can is a predominant part of a pilots personality. A wing and a prayer attitude aint good enough when 200,000kgs of pax, fuel and composite follows you around at 35000ft.
That said, if you are on an integrated course, your results will help you when the schools recommend their graduates to the guys they supply. Yes, recruitment people prefer an easy life and will jump on a recommendation. Graduates with the best grades and first time IR passes get the best offers. But like all things in life, the more distant exams, are the less important they seem. Experience rules.
That's my twopenneth. Over and out.
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Hi all
I am in the middle of the ATPL's with first set of exams in October.
I started off with wonderful ideals, thinking that I would not stop until I UNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING, and would not sit the exams until I KNEW EVERYTHING! That little dream faded a few weeks ago, I worked harder at this than anything I have ever done, but I have come to accept, regretfully that on my own and even with as much help online as I can get, I will not fully understand the inner workings of certain instruments, will never fully get all the law and ops procedure, certainly do not give a **** about how long an operator must keep the training records of his gnd staff, etc.etc. Now, all I want to do is pass. There is simply far too much to retain to be fully adept at all 14 subjects, and I know that when all is said and done, these exams will NOT make me the pilot I want and hope to be. It's sad, but true. If the JAA concentrated more on ATPL's becoming simply more than a barrier and made it a more practical exam, reducing the work load to something more manageable then a more realistic exam could be taken. At this stage, I would love my scores in the 90s but a pass will do. I have another 7 to do after this and would really like my life back as soon as possible.!
I am in the middle of the ATPL's with first set of exams in October.
I started off with wonderful ideals, thinking that I would not stop until I UNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING, and would not sit the exams until I KNEW EVERYTHING! That little dream faded a few weeks ago, I worked harder at this than anything I have ever done, but I have come to accept, regretfully that on my own and even with as much help online as I can get, I will not fully understand the inner workings of certain instruments, will never fully get all the law and ops procedure, certainly do not give a **** about how long an operator must keep the training records of his gnd staff, etc.etc. Now, all I want to do is pass. There is simply far too much to retain to be fully adept at all 14 subjects, and I know that when all is said and done, these exams will NOT make me the pilot I want and hope to be. It's sad, but true. If the JAA concentrated more on ATPL's becoming simply more than a barrier and made it a more practical exam, reducing the work load to something more manageable then a more realistic exam could be taken. At this stage, I would love my scores in the 90s but a pass will do. I have another 7 to do after this and would really like my life back as soon as possible.!
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Powedermonkey,
It can feel a bit like that. My advice is don't develop subjective notions of what you think you know/don't know, just do the progress tests and if you get 75%+ then move on. Just make sure you have enough time to run through everything again before the brush-up course.
Fear not, the brush-up course will knock you into shape
Am I the only one in the world who thinks amongst the dross of the ATPLS, is plenty of essential knowledge?
It can feel a bit like that. My advice is don't develop subjective notions of what you think you know/don't know, just do the progress tests and if you get 75%+ then move on. Just make sure you have enough time to run through everything again before the brush-up course.
Fear not, the brush-up course will knock you into shape
I know that when all is said and done, these exams will NOT make me the pilot
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Here! Here! Completely agree with scroggs, Ive been in the airline buisiness for 15+years never has a prospective employer asked for exam scores, only Licence, Medical and about you as a person! THAT SHOULD BE THE END OF THIS POST!!