Is This Fair???
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Is This Fair???
Has anybody heard about the female ATPL student that completed her CPL training apart from the skills test before actually obtaining her written ATPL's.
The question that I have and several students have, is can this be done? - Not according to Lasors and the ground schools talking about this issue.
This was the same person I believe that busted two class D airspaces in one day with a conflict with inbound traffic at Bristol Airport with a TCAS advisory with an approaching aircraft, and the second with Cardiff Airport after failing to identify where she was.
Secondly why should this student have an unfair advantage over students and, is the CAA aware and doing anything about it on both accounts?
The question that I have and several students have, is can this be done? - Not according to Lasors and the ground schools talking about this issue.
This was the same person I believe that busted two class D airspaces in one day with a conflict with inbound traffic at Bristol Airport with a TCAS advisory with an approaching aircraft, and the second with Cardiff Airport after failing to identify where she was.
Secondly why should this student have an unfair advantage over students and, is the CAA aware and doing anything about it on both accounts?
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LASORS actual says that
Before undertaking the [CPL] Skill Test, the applicant
shall have passed the associated theoretical
knowledge examination (exceptions may be
made by the CAA for applicants undergoing a
course of integrated flying training), and
completed all of the related flying training.
These are:
CPL Theoretical Knowledge
Air Law
Aircraft General Knowledge
Flight Performance and Planning
Human Performance and Limitations
Meteorology
Navigation
Operational Procedures
Principles of Flight
Communications (VFR)
Nothing about sequence of theory exams vs training and the trainee will have a PPL So what's the beef and the real point of the question?
Before undertaking the [CPL] Skill Test, the applicant
shall have passed the associated theoretical
knowledge examination (exceptions may be
made by the CAA for applicants undergoing a
course of integrated flying training), and
completed all of the related flying training.
These are:
CPL Theoretical Knowledge
Air Law
Aircraft General Knowledge
Flight Performance and Planning
Human Performance and Limitations
Meteorology
Navigation
Operational Procedures
Principles of Flight
Communications (VFR)
Nothing about sequence of theory exams vs training and the trainee will have a PPL So what's the beef and the real point of the question?
Last edited by egbt; 28th Jun 2005 at 12:13.
"Has anybody heard about the female ATPL student...."
Of what conceivable relevance is it that the person you are making these allegations about happens to be female?
egbt is quite right - you and your 'several students' should perhaps study LASORS rather more carefully!
Of what conceivable relevance is it that the person you are making these allegations about happens to be female?
egbt is quite right - you and your 'several students' should perhaps study LASORS rather more carefully!
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So what is the real reason for this thread? Of course you don't have to have completed your ATPL's before CPL. If you only want a CPL why would you even need to sit ATPL's?
As for the ground schools, quite often students can have passed their IR without completing the ATPL's as they are waiting on re-sit results. The schools don't recommend this situation but it is allowed. There appears to be no foundation to your point at all.
As for the ground schools, quite often students can have passed their IR without completing the ATPL's as they are waiting on re-sit results. The schools don't recommend this situation but it is allowed. There appears to be no foundation to your point at all.
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Having spent five minutes in LASORS, the only reference to CPL requirements with regard to theoretical knowledge is that the exams are passed prior to license issue. This is in agreement with egbt's post above.
Perhaps we are missing the question though; Morphius originally posted a query regarding the unfair advantage of a student over others in their position. As egbt and others have made clear, from the theory exam point of view, the student has not stepped outside the confines of the rulebook.
At the same time, a second question was implied with regard to the suitability of a student as a CPL. If the incident took place as described, then a serious breach of safety has clearly occurred. Busting any airspace is a serious matter, busting Class D is another, busting two Class D's in succession is quite another, and causing a TCAS system to go to alert means that someone, somewhere has done a lot of paperwork and that, in answer to Morphius' original question, the CAA are most definitely involved.
Is there any documented evidence of any of the alleged incidents?
One must assume that the individual concerned, as a PPL holder/CPL student, was well aware of their level of responsibility and their actions as pilot-in-command; if not, yet another question must be raised, does their competence justify holding the privileges of a PPL, and why are they undertaking CPL training - or even being allowed to do so? Heaven forbid that it may have any bearing on the student's gender or other such political catch. Perhaps this is the question that Morphius intended?
Perhaps we are missing the question though; Morphius originally posted a query regarding the unfair advantage of a student over others in their position. As egbt and others have made clear, from the theory exam point of view, the student has not stepped outside the confines of the rulebook.
At the same time, a second question was implied with regard to the suitability of a student as a CPL. If the incident took place as described, then a serious breach of safety has clearly occurred. Busting any airspace is a serious matter, busting Class D is another, busting two Class D's in succession is quite another, and causing a TCAS system to go to alert means that someone, somewhere has done a lot of paperwork and that, in answer to Morphius' original question, the CAA are most definitely involved.
Is there any documented evidence of any of the alleged incidents?
One must assume that the individual concerned, as a PPL holder/CPL student, was well aware of their level of responsibility and their actions as pilot-in-command; if not, yet another question must be raised, does their competence justify holding the privileges of a PPL, and why are they undertaking CPL training - or even being allowed to do so? Heaven forbid that it may have any bearing on the student's gender or other such political catch. Perhaps this is the question that Morphius intended?
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Ex-speedite,
I suspect we will never know the real point of the question and that yardman was probably correct in thinking Morphius is a troll, perhaps morphed from another ID? However to continue the thread….
The CCA, FTO etc must have been involved so how could this be an advantage to the pilot concerned - other than getting a very quick lesson in the need for maintaining situational awareness and the possible consequences of not doing so? I for one would not want to go through the interview with the CFI, CAA etc who I am sure will take appropriate action. The loss of confidence could be devastating to a career, an appropriate reminder of our fallibility or it could bounce off an unthinking individual - who knows?
At a more conceptual level why are the issues of fairness and advantage over other students being raised at all? As you rightly point out this is about safety. Whilst getting a pilots job is competitive, gaining a licence is not. It is, or should be, about standardisation and safety, you either reach the standard or you do not. The treatment of one individual is of no relevance to others, except for the obvious safety issues if someone is given a licence who should not be and there is clearly no evidence of that in this case.
If Morphius is genuine, he or she should be thankful it was not them involved. I came close to busting class D once shortly after getting my PPL. That was though a simple transposition of VOR frequencies and CDI’s (watching the wrong one! thanks Farnborough LARS for the heads up and a good job I had asked for the RIS!). It’s not until you have done it or come close that you realise how easy it is to do - especially when under a heavy work load which of course is subjective and related to experience.
Let’s hope one or both of these individuals learn something from this. I suspect that is more likely in the case of the lady pilot!
regards
P.S. happy as a PPL and with no pretensions to an ATPL at my age! so no axes to grind, just want to stay alive and keep what I have!
I suspect we will never know the real point of the question and that yardman was probably correct in thinking Morphius is a troll, perhaps morphed from another ID? However to continue the thread….
The CCA, FTO etc must have been involved so how could this be an advantage to the pilot concerned - other than getting a very quick lesson in the need for maintaining situational awareness and the possible consequences of not doing so? I for one would not want to go through the interview with the CFI, CAA etc who I am sure will take appropriate action. The loss of confidence could be devastating to a career, an appropriate reminder of our fallibility or it could bounce off an unthinking individual - who knows?
At a more conceptual level why are the issues of fairness and advantage over other students being raised at all? As you rightly point out this is about safety. Whilst getting a pilots job is competitive, gaining a licence is not. It is, or should be, about standardisation and safety, you either reach the standard or you do not. The treatment of one individual is of no relevance to others, except for the obvious safety issues if someone is given a licence who should not be and there is clearly no evidence of that in this case.
If Morphius is genuine, he or she should be thankful it was not them involved. I came close to busting class D once shortly after getting my PPL. That was though a simple transposition of VOR frequencies and CDI’s (watching the wrong one! thanks Farnborough LARS for the heads up and a good job I had asked for the RIS!). It’s not until you have done it or come close that you realise how easy it is to do - especially when under a heavy work load which of course is subjective and related to experience.
Let’s hope one or both of these individuals learn something from this. I suspect that is more likely in the case of the lady pilot!
regards
P.S. happy as a PPL and with no pretensions to an ATPL at my age! so no axes to grind, just want to stay alive and keep what I have!
Last edited by egbt; 29th Jun 2005 at 12:46.
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Morphius
Are you making sexist and personal accusations and pretend you're concerned about unfairness? It has always been allowed to train for the CPL before having passed the exams, although it has also always been discouraged by the schools for the student's benefit. If it was any of your business then you could have checked with the school and they would have told you the same thing.
I believe I might know about the incident you mention, except you have important details completely wrong, although I know exactly how chinese whispers added the embellishments. I suggest you remove the allegations, especially as it is possible to identify the woman in question.
ex-speedite
If it is the incident I know about, you too have the facts wrong! If you think a TCAS advisory necessarily leads to paperwork or CAA involvement then you really should have listened more carefully your groundschool. That would be ridiculous!
Again, you seem to have forgotten your groundschool. There is no controlled airspace you can "bust" VFR below class D! It is the lowest possible bust, as flight in class E is legal without clearance under VFR. Therefore any bust is at least class D.
Class D busts are not that uncommon, nor are they usually dangerous. Most lead to no further action if safety was not compromised and if the pilot's response on realising the bust is reasonable. I understand in the case I am assuming you are talking about her actions at that point were exemplary (information comes from the ATC involved). CAA were informed, but they decided no further action was required as in the vast majority of MORs.
Personally I would rather see her as a CPL holder than someone who will make judgements beyond his experience from ill-informed gossip and publish them on an international forum! Especially if they have forgotten what they learnt at groundschool.
Are you making sexist and personal accusations and pretend you're concerned about unfairness? It has always been allowed to train for the CPL before having passed the exams, although it has also always been discouraged by the schools for the student's benefit. If it was any of your business then you could have checked with the school and they would have told you the same thing.
I believe I might know about the incident you mention, except you have important details completely wrong, although I know exactly how chinese whispers added the embellishments. I suggest you remove the allegations, especially as it is possible to identify the woman in question.
ex-speedite
If it is the incident I know about, you too have the facts wrong! If you think a TCAS advisory necessarily leads to paperwork or CAA involvement then you really should have listened more carefully your groundschool. That would be ridiculous!
Busting any airspace is a serious matter, busting Class D is another
Class D busts are not that uncommon, nor are they usually dangerous. Most lead to no further action if safety was not compromised and if the pilot's response on realising the bust is reasonable. I understand in the case I am assuming you are talking about her actions at that point were exemplary (information comes from the ATC involved). CAA were informed, but they decided no further action was required as in the vast majority of MORs.
Personally I would rather see her as a CPL holder than someone who will make judgements beyond his experience from ill-informed gossip and publish them on an international forum! Especially if they have forgotten what they learnt at groundschool.
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Tuned In,
TCAS RA (Resolution Advisory) requires ATC to be informed as soon as possible and a written report sent to the CAA within a time period by the commander. Rather than lambasting, it maybe more appropriate to think out what kind of advisory was being referred to!
I think it is a gross assumption to assume a Class D bust isn't dangerous (surely the most common too?). Gatwick is 'only' Class D after all. An airspace infringement is exactly what it says on the summons
If you think a TCAS advisory necessarily leads to paperwork or CAA involvement then you really should have listened more carefully your groundschool. That would be ridiculous!
I think it is a gross assumption to assume a Class D bust isn't dangerous (surely the most common too?). Gatwick is 'only' Class D after all. An airspace infringement is exactly what it says on the summons
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HWD
You are the first to mention a resolution advisory! Do you know what happened in the case in question? If it is the case I am thinking of I seem to remember it was a TA, not an RA, although that is one detail I cannot recall with certainty.
Where did anyone assume a class D bust is not dangerous? I said they are not usually dangerous - rather than lambasting perhaps read more carefully! I have seen and heard a few, even to my shame had one, none of which were anything more than an annoyance and extra work load for ATC (or just a sharp reminder over the radio in my case). At Gatwick they are likely to be even less dangerous, due to the closer ATC monitoring, although far more of a nuissance.
Agree that any airspace infringement is something to be taken seriously, but there are degrees, and there are different responses that can change the seriousness.
You are the first to mention a resolution advisory! Do you know what happened in the case in question? If it is the case I am thinking of I seem to remember it was a TA, not an RA, although that is one detail I cannot recall with certainty.
Where did anyone assume a class D bust is not dangerous? I said they are not usually dangerous - rather than lambasting perhaps read more carefully! I have seen and heard a few, even to my shame had one, none of which were anything more than an annoyance and extra work load for ATC (or just a sharp reminder over the radio in my case). At Gatwick they are likely to be even less dangerous, due to the closer ATC monitoring, although far more of a nuissance.
Agree that any airspace infringement is something to be taken seriously, but there are degrees, and there are different responses that can change the seriousness.
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So Morphius, what is the relevance of an airspace bust to whether a student is permited to start a CPL course before having her ground exam results? Sounds like someone has heard some stories and seen something he thinks is against rules he misinterpreted, is jealous about another issue and wishes to cause trouble.
I see you haven't returned to comment on people's replies. While I am not surprised, I think it is your responsibility to explain yourself, having spread rumours that may not be true on an open forum.
I see you haven't returned to comment on people's replies. While I am not surprised, I think it is your responsibility to explain yourself, having spread rumours that may not be true on an open forum.
