This is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL
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I used to teach it to my students and I was taught it by my instructor so the answer is yes. Once you understand it it is not very hard. If you find it hard practice for twenty hours or so whilst building time.
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Great thread guys, you're helping us wannabees making an informed choice about the different routes to the atpl. What do think about this route:
Jaa ppl in florida or cali
hour builing usa
distance learning atpl theory
--> find a job and save as hell
Cpl/ir/me in spain, for example at aerofan
Mcc at Ctc or somewhere cheap
My other choice is getting all the faa ratings and doing the conversion route. I could stay with a friend in the usa in the surrounding of trenton, NJ. I know Atp airline transport proffesionals is not too far from the place I could stay. I have about 10000 euros now available for training and I'm in the final fase of my master in business administration. During the coming months I will make a choice about the route I'm going to take.
Jaa ppl in florida or cali
hour builing usa
distance learning atpl theory
--> find a job and save as hell
Cpl/ir/me in spain, for example at aerofan
Mcc at Ctc or somewhere cheap
My other choice is getting all the faa ratings and doing the conversion route. I could stay with a friend in the usa in the surrounding of trenton, NJ. I know Atp airline transport proffesionals is not too far from the place I could stay. I have about 10000 euros now available for training and I'm in the final fase of my master in business administration. During the coming months I will make a choice about the route I'm going to take.
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I don't work for any school anywhere.
You seem to have ignored my point that a school here can put together a quote like yours for £28k. These are bare bones quotes based on minimum hours.
You say you have a job - but on an N reg so I don't think that counts. Try going to a UK carrier with min hours and only having spent five or ten hours in UK airspace. See how far you go.
If Seaweed thinks he will pass a uk IRT now, without further training then go ahead, ask a school for a 170A to test standard.
This really must be a wind up. I speak to mates a lot who have gone abroad. A lot say they didn't save a bean. And as for all this coming from a brand new poster - hmmm.
You seem to have ignored my point that a school here can put together a quote like yours for £28k. These are bare bones quotes based on minimum hours.
You say you have a job - but on an N reg so I don't think that counts. Try going to a UK carrier with min hours and only having spent five or ten hours in UK airspace. See how far you go.
If Seaweed thinks he will pass a uk IRT now, without further training then go ahead, ask a school for a 170A to test standard.
This really must be a wind up. I speak to mates a lot who have gone abroad. A lot say they didn't save a bean. And as for all this coming from a brand new poster - hmmm.
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1) Always add in opportunity cost of lost earnings in addition to all living costs, otherwise it is not true cost to you at all.
2) Why on earth does anyone think that cheapest and quickest is best for gaining the essentials to gain the licence - only to join a large pool of people in a similar position with similar hours?
2) Why on earth does anyone think that cheapest and quickest is best for gaining the essentials to gain the licence - only to join a large pool of people in a similar position with similar hours?
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No one has answered my question.
What is the cheapest integrated course in the UK?
Does that include exam fees etc?
Does that include accommodation and food?
Oh of course how stupid of me I forgott my job dosen't coun't as it is not a real plane. I assume you did the integrated course in the UK. What are you doing flying related now?
What is the cheapest integrated course in the UK?
Does that include exam fees etc?
Does that include accommodation and food?
Oh of course how stupid of me I forgott my job dosen't coun't as it is not a real plane. I assume you did the integrated course in the UK. What are you doing flying related now?
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You seem to have ignored my point that a school here can put together a quote like yours for £28k. These are bare bones quotes based on minimum hours.
The quote I was given includes test fees, if its test fees that you consider to be the meat on the bones. Is that what youre talking about?
As for the minimums, tell me why you feel an FAA instrument rated pilot would require more than 15 additional hours of training to pass another IR.
Why?
I notice that you are the same guy who resorted to name calling on the last page. Youre obviously a very angry and bitter person. I can only assume that your bitterness is a result of your having been raped by a UK school yourself.
You've spent a lot of money, made a lot of mistakes and are now feeling stupid about not having researched things a little better.
I currently fly PIC in a twin turboprop on an N reg in the UK
but on an N reg so I don't think that counts.
Your entire post is rediculous.
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Don't come the smart arse. Are you saying those costs are for a integrated course in the states? Of course not. Integrated has no relevance here. Compare it with a modular course not integrated.
I haven't been 'raped' as you so eloquently put it. I am exceptionally happy with my training choices. But have seen many people burned by going down these routes that are too good to be true.
Seaweed you said you could pass a UK IRT now. Well go and do it them come back and say you are right. None of you has a UK IR. Once you have then maybe your comments will have some credibility.
I haven't been 'raped' as you so eloquently put it. I am exceptionally happy with my training choices. But have seen many people burned by going down these routes that are too good to be true.
Seaweed you said you could pass a UK IRT now. Well go and do it them come back and say you are right. None of you has a UK IR. Once you have then maybe your comments will have some credibility.
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Seaweed you said you could pass a UK IRT now. Well go and do it them come back and say you are right.
The test will be the easy part. Financing it is another matter.
Now, i'll ask you again. I'll type it in bold to make sure you see it.
Why would an FAA IR rated pilot have difficulty passing a JAA IR test? Especially after the minimum 15 hours extra training that is required.
None of you has a UK IR. Once you have then maybe your comments will have some credibility.
I fail to see how any of the statements I have made are lacking credibility. Do you think i'm lying about something? Does youre entire arguement hinge on the fact that you dont think the FAA IR is as good as a JAA one?
If not, please explain exactly what it is you are having a hard time with here and I will attempt to explain or clarify as need be.
Last edited by Seaweed Knees; 10th Mar 2005 at 14:37.
Whilst it may well be cheaper, in some cases, to follow the route that Moochooser first advocated, it should be borne in mind that the figures listed are based upon the cheapest quotes of various marketing departments and "my mate told me" estimates, neither of which are particularly reliable. They also assume that the average person will be able to pass everything first time in the minimum possible hours. For these reasons, the figures should be treated with extreme caution. It should also be noted that, as silverknapper pointed out, the original post did not compare like with like - the figure of £56,500 did not relate to a minimum cost modular course in the UK, which can be had for well under £30,000.
Also conveniently ignored is the attitude of JAA airline recruiters to pilots with only 10 hours (or less) experience in JAA airspace. In his original post, Moochooser stated "....you lot who say the name of the school means a lot can't deny that a holder of a frozen ATPL, with those type ratings, would stand a far better chance than a fresh graduate from one of the rip off UK schools". I have to say that most JAA airlines would favour the fresh graduate (who they would, in any case, bond for the appropriate type rating) over the holder of a MPA type rating but little relevant experience.
Before assuming that conversion may be achieved in the minimum time, having taken the cheapest options towards FAA qualifications, it might be worth taking a look at the FAA Practical Test Standards and comparing them with the CAA's Standards Document 1.
As Alex suggested, and contrary to Seaweed Knees' assertion, NDB tracking is not a mandatory part of the FAA instrument rating, the PTS lists the minimum radio navigation equipment as that necessary "for the performance of two of the following nonprecision approaches: VOR, NDB, GPS, LOC, LDA, SDF, or RNAV and one precision approach: ILS, GLS, or MLS." There is, therefore, no requirement for the aircraft to be fitted with an ADF receiver or, indeed, for any tracking using a RMI. On the other hand, single-needle tracking both to and from a beacon, as well as single-needle holding procedures, are usually required in a CAA IR Skill Test.
A comparison of test tolerances reveals the following differences, among others:
Departure/Cruise:
FAA - Maintains the applicable airspeed within +/-10 knots; headings within +/-10°; altitude within +/-100 feet; and tracks a course, radial or bearing within ¾ scale deflection of the CDI.
CAA - Take-off/Vr: +5kts/-0kts, Climb: +/-5kts, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°
Holding:
FAA - Maintains the airspeed within +/-10 knots; altitude within +/-100 feet; headings within +/-10°; and tracks a selected course, radial or bearing within ¾ scale deflection of the CDI.
CAA - Speed: +/-5kts, Altitude: +/-100ft, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°
Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems
FAA - Maintains the airspeed within +/-10 knots, altitude within +/-100 feet, and selected headings within +/-5°. Applies proper correction to maintain a course, allowing no more than three-quarter-scale deflection of the CDI or within +/-10° in case of an RMI.
CAA - Speed: +/-5kts, Altitude: +/-100ft, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°
Non-precision Approach
FAA - Allows, while on the final approach segment, no more than a three-quarter-scale deflection of the CDI or within 10° in case of an RMI, and maintains airspeed within +/-10 knots of that desired. Maintains the MDA, when reached, within +100 feet, -0 feet to the MAP
CAA - Tracking: +/-5°, Speed: +/-5kts, MDA: +50ft/-0ft
It would appear that the answer to Seaweed Knees' question "Why would an FAA IR rated pilot have difficulty passing a JAA IR test? Especially after the minimum 15 hours extra training that is required" is that, as well as a normal requirement for single-needle NDB tracking, which a FAA rated pilot may never have experienced, almost all of the CAA tolerances are half those of the FAA requirements.
Silverknapper is quite correct in asserting that these posts would have a great deal more credibility if written by someone who had successfully completed the conversion in minimum time having gained FAA qualifications at minimum cost. It may be possible but I, for one, have never heard of it happening.
And, before the allegations start flying, I do hold both JAA and FAA instrument ratings but have no connection whatever with any JAA FTO.
Also conveniently ignored is the attitude of JAA airline recruiters to pilots with only 10 hours (or less) experience in JAA airspace. In his original post, Moochooser stated "....you lot who say the name of the school means a lot can't deny that a holder of a frozen ATPL, with those type ratings, would stand a far better chance than a fresh graduate from one of the rip off UK schools". I have to say that most JAA airlines would favour the fresh graduate (who they would, in any case, bond for the appropriate type rating) over the holder of a MPA type rating but little relevant experience.
Before assuming that conversion may be achieved in the minimum time, having taken the cheapest options towards FAA qualifications, it might be worth taking a look at the FAA Practical Test Standards and comparing them with the CAA's Standards Document 1.
As Alex suggested, and contrary to Seaweed Knees' assertion, NDB tracking is not a mandatory part of the FAA instrument rating, the PTS lists the minimum radio navigation equipment as that necessary "for the performance of two of the following nonprecision approaches: VOR, NDB, GPS, LOC, LDA, SDF, or RNAV and one precision approach: ILS, GLS, or MLS." There is, therefore, no requirement for the aircraft to be fitted with an ADF receiver or, indeed, for any tracking using a RMI. On the other hand, single-needle tracking both to and from a beacon, as well as single-needle holding procedures, are usually required in a CAA IR Skill Test.
A comparison of test tolerances reveals the following differences, among others:
Departure/Cruise:
FAA - Maintains the applicable airspeed within +/-10 knots; headings within +/-10°; altitude within +/-100 feet; and tracks a course, radial or bearing within ¾ scale deflection of the CDI.
CAA - Take-off/Vr: +5kts/-0kts, Climb: +/-5kts, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°
Holding:
FAA - Maintains the airspeed within +/-10 knots; altitude within +/-100 feet; headings within +/-10°; and tracks a selected course, radial or bearing within ¾ scale deflection of the CDI.
CAA - Speed: +/-5kts, Altitude: +/-100ft, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°
Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems
FAA - Maintains the airspeed within +/-10 knots, altitude within +/-100 feet, and selected headings within +/-5°. Applies proper correction to maintain a course, allowing no more than three-quarter-scale deflection of the CDI or within +/-10° in case of an RMI.
CAA - Speed: +/-5kts, Altitude: +/-100ft, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°
Non-precision Approach
FAA - Allows, while on the final approach segment, no more than a three-quarter-scale deflection of the CDI or within 10° in case of an RMI, and maintains airspeed within +/-10 knots of that desired. Maintains the MDA, when reached, within +100 feet, -0 feet to the MAP
CAA - Tracking: +/-5°, Speed: +/-5kts, MDA: +50ft/-0ft
It would appear that the answer to Seaweed Knees' question "Why would an FAA IR rated pilot have difficulty passing a JAA IR test? Especially after the minimum 15 hours extra training that is required" is that, as well as a normal requirement for single-needle NDB tracking, which a FAA rated pilot may never have experienced, almost all of the CAA tolerances are half those of the FAA requirements.
Silverknapper is quite correct in asserting that these posts would have a great deal more credibility if written by someone who had successfully completed the conversion in minimum time having gained FAA qualifications at minimum cost. It may be possible but I, for one, have never heard of it happening.
And, before the allegations start flying, I do hold both JAA and FAA instrument ratings but have no connection whatever with any JAA FTO.
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Tolerances and NDB procedures are of course something that a candidate planning to convert in this manner would be able to prepare for.
If your aim is to hold a JAA IR, you are obviously going to follow the CAA's standards throuought your training.
That goes without saying.
If your aim is to hold a JAA IR, you are obviously going to follow the CAA's standards throuought your training.
That goes without saying.
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An exceptionally detailed and informative post Billiebob. Well done on bringing it to the debate!
Once again Seaweed chhoses to ignore the fact that he will be applying for a UK job having flown in the UK for a total of 10 hours.
Once again Seaweed chhoses to ignore the fact that he will be applying for a UK job having flown in the UK for a total of 10 hours.
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If it so hard to pass the UK tests I assume lots of people fail even if they did the training in the UK. Do the UK schools take this into account and include retests and the required retraining in their price? Or would it be likely that the price quoted would be even higher than it is because it is so hard to pass with minimum hours?
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Once again Seaweed chhoses to ignore the fact that he will be applying for a UK job having flown in the UK for a total of 10 hours.
Your posts are pointless, why are you bothering to write anything at all?
As far as getting a job with low "UK" hours goes. I dont see the problem.
Ive come accross many instructors who did almost all of their training bar the Instructor stuff at JAR schools in the US before getting hired in the UK.
What about jump pilots? I doubt the CCI at any DZ here would care about where the flight time was logged. In my opinion, US airspace is far more challenging than British airspace anyway.
There are numerous ways of building up time.
After a full conversion, the minimum UK airspace flight time will come to about 17 hours.
As for me, I have already been offered a job flying here in the UK.
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I think moochooser did a fine job in posting here about what he thinks might be a good alternative to a very expensive integrated course. However, I also got the feeling that the figures he quoted are only the very minimum and a potential candidate planning on choosing this route should be aware of that. On the other hand, I think the prices a FTO like OAT quotes are only the minimum figures too.
The fact that he and Seaweed Knees were attacked so fiercely proofs that he/they opened up a discussion on a very sensitive topic, which made some fear about their business...
Anyway, I just wanted to raise a question in between all this fighting. We've talked quite a bit about FAA flying but what about JAA training in the US? Why are so many people going to train in the US under JAA regulations if it is so bad? They're training in the same airpace, practicing approaches on the same airports? Is it to be considered as erroneous as an FAA training is?
To wrap my post up, I think the hours built, even under FAA regulations, won't hurt anybody. Plus, they are the required hours airlines are asking for so I don't see anything that can be disadvantageous in having PICs flown under FAA regulations.
As I'm a greenhorn myself and still looking for the right way for getting my training I stand to be corrected.
The fact that he and Seaweed Knees were attacked so fiercely proofs that he/they opened up a discussion on a very sensitive topic, which made some fear about their business...
Anyway, I just wanted to raise a question in between all this fighting. We've talked quite a bit about FAA flying but what about JAA training in the US? Why are so many people going to train in the US under JAA regulations if it is so bad? They're training in the same airpace, practicing approaches on the same airports? Is it to be considered as erroneous as an FAA training is?
To wrap my post up, I think the hours built, even under FAA regulations, won't hurt anybody. Plus, they are the required hours airlines are asking for so I don't see anything that can be disadvantageous in having PICs flown under FAA regulations.
As I'm a greenhorn myself and still looking for the right way for getting my training I stand to be corrected.
Last edited by stefair; 11th Mar 2005 at 08:07.
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It is entirely possible to complete a JAA CPL/IR (frozen ATPL) for less cost than is commonly quoted for the major integrated schools. As WWW has posted many times, it can be done entirely in the UK for around GBP 35,000. With selective use of FAA schools and careful budgeting, and bearing in mind the current exchange rates, I am quite prepared to believe that the whole process could be completed for between GBP 25,000 and 30,000. It is theoretically possible to construct a route for far less, as moochooser has tried to demonstrate, but it would be a very unwise wannabe who bet his future on those figures! I would suggest that, even going via moochoosers route, you budget at least $50,000. This would allow for errors, exchange rate variations, and any slip-ups on the JAA conversion. If you have some left at the end, lucky you!
As for the chances of getting a UK-based job, there is no intrinsic reason why a wannabe who has taken this route would be unsuitable for employment by a CAA/JAA airline. Of the hundreds of pilots I work with at Virgin, several completed all, or the majority, of their training in the USA - admittedly some years ago. In many parts of the world the FAA ATPL is the preferred qualification. Most intelligent employers would not mark down an individual for going this route, so long as all the required conversion tests were completed to a high standard. Some employers do show a preference for particular schools, which can be an obstacle, but as far as I can tell, no employer limits his intake entirely to the output of one single training establishment.
This is a worthwhile conversation; it is not improved by bad-tempered name-calling. Tackle the arguments, not the man.
Scroggs
As for the chances of getting a UK-based job, there is no intrinsic reason why a wannabe who has taken this route would be unsuitable for employment by a CAA/JAA airline. Of the hundreds of pilots I work with at Virgin, several completed all, or the majority, of their training in the USA - admittedly some years ago. In many parts of the world the FAA ATPL is the preferred qualification. Most intelligent employers would not mark down an individual for going this route, so long as all the required conversion tests were completed to a high standard. Some employers do show a preference for particular schools, which can be an obstacle, but as far as I can tell, no employer limits his intake entirely to the output of one single training establishment.
This is a worthwhile conversation; it is not improved by bad-tempered name-calling. Tackle the arguments, not the man.
Scroggs
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Interesting discussion.
What I've always wondered about is, why, if UK carriers are so insistant that their self-funded applicants have trained in the UK; in the majority of cases when these carriers have an integrated sponsored cadat scheme, invariably all the training is carried out outside the UK, in Florida, Spain, New Zealand, Arizona etc etc
What I've always wondered about is, why, if UK carriers are so insistant that their self-funded applicants have trained in the UK; in the majority of cases when these carriers have an integrated sponsored cadat scheme, invariably all the training is carried out outside the UK, in Florida, Spain, New Zealand, Arizona etc etc
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Scroggs has hit the nail on the head.
Moo has sparked such a reaction because he has come here stating that a person can achieve a JAA CPL/IR for £16000. This is rubbish. Moo hasn't brought any great revelation to the forum, people have been doing this for years. And were you to ask any of them if it cost them under £16000 I bet not one would say yes. Also if it was that easy why are schools here still in business? It is irresponsible to get peoples hopes up, or indeed to send them training having only budgeted for £16k. Indeed it is ludicrous. He then throws accusations around about people who disagree with him having ulterior motives. I would suggest that he may be the one with an ulterior motive. I am always suspicious of people posting aggressively when they have only been on prune a week or two. Perhaps business in the US is slow?
I would humbly disagree with Scroggs on the point of getting that first job. I have attended several interviews in the last 4 months, and the one thing which was always picked up on when going over my log book was that I had trained for my CPL/IR in the UK, indeed one said outright they only take people who have. This may be the opinion of one or two dinosaurs, but at the end of the day it is they who are doing the recruiting. Luckily I did get a job, at the airfield I did my hour building from. And I apportion this in no small part to being able to talk enthusiastically about the area. It is a tough job market at the moment, and anything which makes you more marketable has to be worth it. And the attitude is still very prevalent - 'train where you want to work'. However I agree entirely that once that first job is gained it doesn't matter a damn from that point on.
Carb, to venture an answer to your question, I would guess it is because the company can guarantee the quality of training, and indeed decide the syllabus which it's students will follow to an extent.
Fingers sore now - go easy on me!
Moo has sparked such a reaction because he has come here stating that a person can achieve a JAA CPL/IR for £16000. This is rubbish. Moo hasn't brought any great revelation to the forum, people have been doing this for years. And were you to ask any of them if it cost them under £16000 I bet not one would say yes. Also if it was that easy why are schools here still in business? It is irresponsible to get peoples hopes up, or indeed to send them training having only budgeted for £16k. Indeed it is ludicrous. He then throws accusations around about people who disagree with him having ulterior motives. I would suggest that he may be the one with an ulterior motive. I am always suspicious of people posting aggressively when they have only been on prune a week or two. Perhaps business in the US is slow?
I would humbly disagree with Scroggs on the point of getting that first job. I have attended several interviews in the last 4 months, and the one thing which was always picked up on when going over my log book was that I had trained for my CPL/IR in the UK, indeed one said outright they only take people who have. This may be the opinion of one or two dinosaurs, but at the end of the day it is they who are doing the recruiting. Luckily I did get a job, at the airfield I did my hour building from. And I apportion this in no small part to being able to talk enthusiastically about the area. It is a tough job market at the moment, and anything which makes you more marketable has to be worth it. And the attitude is still very prevalent - 'train where you want to work'. However I agree entirely that once that first job is gained it doesn't matter a damn from that point on.
Carb, to venture an answer to your question, I would guess it is because the company can guarantee the quality of training, and indeed decide the syllabus which it's students will follow to an extent.
Fingers sore now - go easy on me!