Could a Share Save Me money?

[Flyboy1980]

Hi All,

I am a low time PPL holder and wannabe, and no doubt like many others I have been searching for the cheapest way to get qualified and get on the job market. I have done my research and now accept the fact that I will be broke at the end of all this. In my quest to save some pennies I had a passing thought which I would appreciate your views on.

I am curious as to weather anyone had ever heard of a share scheme by which you train as a part owner of an aircraft. For example....

*10 trainees buy 10 equal shares in an aircraft (either single or multi)
*Hire an instructor to train them
*Pay an hourly rate for, fuel, maintenance etc
*Then sell the aircraft at the end, and receive some refund on your initial investment

Obviously there will be other ratings which may need to be persued elsewhere (MCC, JOT etc) but I am curious as to whether anyone has ever heard of this being done? And if it can save money? Maybe flying schools could sell you a share instead of charging huge amounts to hire their aircraft and instructors?

You can probably tell that this is merely a passing thought in my mind, so please feel free to shout me down if it is ridiculous. But any comments would be appreciated. Who knows perhaps I have started a chain reaction that will change the way we view flight training methods, or maybe, i'm being silly again!!

Many Thanks :-)

[benhurr]

Good plan - BUT

Any training must be conducted with a JAA approved FTO - the instructor you have must therefore work for said approved school.
The aircraft must be maintained to the standards set for a FTO. Apart from that, you have a foolproof plan.

[Flyboy1980]

Thought so,

Guessed there would be restrictions, and probably quite rightly so. I guess I will just have to sell the kids, stump up the cash and go for it!

Thanks for your comments, if any one else has a miraculous idea for low cost training, let me know.

Cheers

[buzzc152]

After you have you PPL, a share can still save you a bundle. I bought a 1/12 share in a C150 to get me up the 150 hr mark. I flew 100 fun filled hours for about £45/hr (that's the average incl maintainance, subs etc). It has it's pit fulls (like having to shell out if something needs fixing....and it invariably does). But I still saved a bundle compared to renting or even going to the states.

As, it happens I'm now looking to sell my share (shameless plug). PM me if you want more info.

[birdlady]

FlyBoy

Its a great way to save money however as mentioned above there are limitations. I know a few who've gone down this route and its worked out brillantly. Saved them loads of cash. Most schools will be happy to let you use one of their instructors as they get paid and if its the same there as it is here there's a charge for every entry made on the autho sheet (sign out sheet if its not called that on the other side of the ocean). However, I would really want to trust the other shareholders for obvious reasons. Make sure for every hour flown a certain amount is put aside for maintenance. I know this may seem strange but Ive heard some horror stories of their not being enough spondulux in the kitty for repairs. This can all be avoided if a BINDING contract is signed by all parties.

If this is not your cup of tea/ G and T go somewhere other than the Uk for PPL and hour building maybe even multi IR, then return to Uk for CPL/Multi IR. Two blindingly obvious reasons for this 1) MUCH CHEAPER 2) BETTER WEATHER so will finish faster. The states or S.Africa being two places. Sa is where Ive done all my training and have to say its excellent, cheap and weather is good most of the time.

Ciao for now and good luck

[Genghis the Engineer]

I suspect that the logistics of buying a share to learn in will eventually prove unworkable (except for microlight schools, where in many this is the norm, and therefore they are set up for it). But, by all means prove me wrong - I won't be offended!

For building up experience later however, I think there's much to be said for it. Whilst not for that purpose, I spent £2k on a PA28 share a few years ago, and since have flown it about 30-35 hrs pa - for which I pay £60/hr (actually £50/hr + £30/month). Rental on a similar aircraft locally is around £120/hr (I don't live in a cheap flying area).

So, over one year / 35 hrs, you could reasonably argue that I broke even - but subsequently, my hourly flying cost is roughly halved compared to renting. Plus, I can should I wish put the share up for sale, and probably get my £2k back.

And you probably get to fly a better aeroplane, as well as gaining the experience of managing an aircraft as an owner - that is worth a lot. But, it does make a point - joint ownership means joint risk, joint cleaning duties, joint helping-with-maintenance-to-keep-the-costs down. You are basically trading time and risk for the money saved, it's not a one-way street.

G

[silverknapper]

Do you mean for only hour building. I suspect you may mean for CPL/IR training.
For hour building it can be a good idea. You must be organised though. The only problem is if anything goes on the aircraft you may be hit with a big bill. Some schools have frequent flyer schemes where you pay monthly and then an hourly rate. Have seen some at around £60 for 152.
If you are getting into a share I would recommend one with at least 10 members. Costs are then minimised, and most large groups I see never have an availability problem. Also if you have trouble selling the share later, you don't have too much cash tied up.
I'm beginning to think BL is on commission from the SA tourist board!!
She raises a good point. You can go to the states or SA and get 152s for around £35 an hour. Buzz is trying to flog a share, don't listen to him!!

If however it is for training in I think you will be getting in it up to your neck. You would need a multi if it's for an IR, or at least a complex single. Lets assume a multi.
Initial outlay would be at least £50-60k. And that won't be for anything decent. 16 gph burn - rubbish for hour building in. Horendous maintenance costs - two engines now! Avionics need to be decent - and mode S comes into force soon to add to your worries. Then there are any unforseen problems. As an example Tayflite bent their Arrow back In aug/Sept. It's still not back (although this may have changed recently?)
Then you need to find similiar people brave enough to take the same on.
Also many schools are so busy they wouldn't entertain the thought of instructing in an a/c not in their fleet. Why would they if they make more on their own. If they did they would charge a lot for the instruction to cover the lost revenue from the a/c.

This is all my opinion. I hope it helps.

All the best

SK

[birdlady]

Hi Sk

let it stand for the record I dont work for the SA tourist board.

[Flyboy1980]

Thank you for your comments guys, I have looked into the options some more since my original post and can see that the training I will be able to undergo on a reasonably cheap part owned aircraft is going to be limited, and probably not a viable option. However for hour building I am still considering it. I passed my PPL back in October last year and have no where near the required amount of P1 time to go modular yet, so a share could work well for me, although I will certainly tread very carefully.

Birdlady, just as a matter of interest where abouts did you train in SA? So far I am fairly decided on training at Bournemouth with either BCFT or EPTA, but I have not really looked at SA so would love to know your thoughts on the location. SilverK, £35 an hour, in SA or US, wow if that is true then that may also be a good option.

Thanks for your help people, it is much appreciated.

Kind Regards
FlyBoy

[birdlady]

Hi Flyboy

SA..... hmmmm where do I start. I did my JAA PPL at FTC here in Johannesburg and got screwed but got a JAA PPL in the end after much heartache. Then went to Superior Pilot Services at Grand Central (Midrand - between Jhb and Pretoria). Excellent instructors. Unfortunately, SPS was using FTC's aeroplanes so when they went bust (again) they lost all their training aircraft so their using different schools aeroplanes at the mo. I can tell you who to avoid near Jhb (send me a pm as I'll get in trouble again ) SPS is a very good school.
There are many places here who have got excellent reputations. Algoa, Progress, 43rd Air School. I would do a search on here and you can see for yourself. SA is the place to go for PPl and hour building. You may even consider doing an SA CPL and work here for a couple of years either as an instructor or as a bush pilot. This would allow you to build up a few hours before applying to a European airline once you've converted to JAA. The only down side is that its quite tricky getting a work permit here but can be done if your determined enough also some places will orgainise the work permit for you or just not bother with the permit. Im Irish, did my PPl here, went back to Ireland to live, I lasted two months. I missed SA so much I came back. Its a beautiful country (admitedly has a few problems ie. BAD CRIME) and am in the process of applying for permanent residency.
Okie dokie will stop droning on about how wonderful this place is and look at it from a practicle point of view. Flying is relatively inexpensive here ie R650 per hr solo (not sure what that's to the pound rough estimate divide by 12). I think Sk is pretty much spot on with 35 pounds an hour. Weather is great so less no flying days. Always a bonus. You may get the odd thunderstorm and beleive me up here on the highveld they really are something. You may want to go to the coast to avoid these. You get some nasty cross winds aswell but will prepare you for flying in bad weather (I mean lets face it the Uk's weather is bad 95% of the time).The states maybe cheaper for flying but once you factor in living costs, visas etc SA is cheaper. I've never flown in the Uk but Ive heard from lots of different sources that the SA training is very similar to Uk training more so than american. There are some excellent places to visit with stunning scenery. Have I sold you yet????? Well this certainly will - less than a pound for a draft beer

Ill stop blabbering now and again if you want to know where to avoid PM me or any other info for that matter.

Ciao for now
BL