Yes - Airlines Do Need Pilots !
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Yes - Airlines Do Need Pilots !
Thats the title of an article in the latest issue of a UK flying magazine, under its regular section on proffessional training.
The article appears to promote the concept that the airlines are now starting to become concerned about the fewer numbers of people going through self sponsored training.
A couple of quotes,
"The pond in which these airlines are fishing is very small, and this fact is their greatest worry.Quite simply, the airlines used to believe that there were a huge number of people under training - simply not true"
"To set the scene it should be pointed out that there are fewer pilots graduating with a frozen ATPL in 2004 than for many years........
and there are simply not thousands of graduates sitting out there currently umemployed."
As a student coming to the latter stage of basic training (IR to go), this is, if indeed it is is true, very good news for the likes of me.
I have heard recently that more people are getting jobs but a future shortage of CPL/IRs I find difficult to believe.
Are there jobs to be had for us fresh low houred self sonspored bods?
The article appears to promote the concept that the airlines are now starting to become concerned about the fewer numbers of people going through self sponsored training.
A couple of quotes,
"The pond in which these airlines are fishing is very small, and this fact is their greatest worry.Quite simply, the airlines used to believe that there were a huge number of people under training - simply not true"
"To set the scene it should be pointed out that there are fewer pilots graduating with a frozen ATPL in 2004 than for many years........
and there are simply not thousands of graduates sitting out there currently umemployed."
As a student coming to the latter stage of basic training (IR to go), this is, if indeed it is is true, very good news for the likes of me.
I have heard recently that more people are getting jobs but a future shortage of CPL/IRs I find difficult to believe.
Are there jobs to be had for us fresh low houred self sonspored bods?
airlines are now starting to become concerned about the fewer numbers of people going through self sponsored training
I am one of those as i have always believed i will achieve the dream one day, i love instructing so much now, looking forward to line flying one day.
goodluck
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Doesn't sound right to me. At my Bristol brush up there were 20 people in the class with me on my Mod 2 (all gonnabe airline pilots), and about another 40 on mod 1. This happens every month, so adding all the schools together, there must be at least 100 people finishing their ATPLs each month...
The ease of which people can obtain vast loans to pay their way through training, then it smells a bit like propaganda to me.
The ease of which people can obtain vast loans to pay their way through training, then it smells a bit like propaganda to me.
Can't speak for the accuracy but the latest issue of Flight Training News states that 1286 ATPLs were issued in the last 12 months (127 more than the previous year) and 866 CPLs (up 18). (Figures supplied by CAA)
That still seems like a big pool to me.
That still seems like a big pool to me.
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Wouldn't the 1286 ATPL's have to have 1500 hrs TT of which 500 must be multi-crew, and therefore are probably already employed by an airline? So if this figure has gone up by 127, that can be interpreted as a good sign that the job market is growing.
Also, if the majority of the 866 CPL's need to now go and get IR's before getting to the frozen ATPL stage, I'd say the best indicator of how big the current pool is would be the number of MEIR's issued.
Also, if the majority of the 866 CPL's need to now go and get IR's before getting to the frozen ATPL stage, I'd say the best indicator of how big the current pool is would be the number of MEIR's issued.
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VESTED INTEREST - BEWARE
This is all nonsense - I know loads of people who trained years ago and sad to say have never got off the light aircraft rung..
The problem with those flying magazines is they are funded by
OATS and all the other flying schools to the tune of 10s of thousands a year so they have to keep spinning the same yarn..
The CAA are in on it as well - Thats why the statistics on how many IR rated pilots upgrade to the multi crew IR are unavailable on their web site - it would be revenue limiting
The reality is that since the JAR
1/ More time consuming
2/ More difficult
3/ More expensive
AND CRITICALLY ALL THE EUROPEANS INCLUDING EASTERN EUROPE WHO REGARD 15K A YEAR AS A GOOD SALARY CAN APPLY
FOR UK JOBS...
Try telling it to the people at the BALPA jobs conference...
Oh theres a shortage of pop stars as well dont ya know...
Their are 100s of people at the BALPA jobs seminar every year
many give up...
The winners
1/ CAA - More exam revenue .. nice
2/ General public .. lower labour costs.. £1.00 return to Sydney etc
3/ The flying schools more revenue..
The losers
Pilots who subsidise the industry
The problem with those flying magazines is they are funded by
OATS and all the other flying schools to the tune of 10s of thousands a year so they have to keep spinning the same yarn..
The CAA are in on it as well - Thats why the statistics on how many IR rated pilots upgrade to the multi crew IR are unavailable on their web site - it would be revenue limiting
The reality is that since the JAR
1/ More time consuming
2/ More difficult
3/ More expensive
AND CRITICALLY ALL THE EUROPEANS INCLUDING EASTERN EUROPE WHO REGARD 15K A YEAR AS A GOOD SALARY CAN APPLY
FOR UK JOBS...
Try telling it to the people at the BALPA jobs conference...
Oh theres a shortage of pop stars as well dont ya know...
Their are 100s of people at the BALPA jobs seminar every year
many give up...
The winners
1/ CAA - More exam revenue .. nice
2/ General public .. lower labour costs.. £1.00 return to Sydney etc
3/ The flying schools more revenue..
The losers
Pilots who subsidise the industry
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I read that Flyer column each month. It is begining to read like a stuck record sounds. The problem with journalists is that they need to have words to fill a column and this one chooses to bang on about how good the GAPAN tests are and how short the sector will be of trained pilots. His column wouldn't last long if he said there's no point and it takes much more effort to tackle the serious issues of funding, type ratings, presentation, choosing courses, age, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
One fundemental problem I have with this guy is he promotes the GAPAN test but does not seem to understand it. It does not, as he suggested, show suitability to be an airline pilot. It provides and indication that you may or may not struggle with flight training, especially the IR. It has nothing to do with personality, attitude or compatibility with the job as a whole. You may sail through GAPAN and your trainining but never pass an interview.
In fact, a quick bit of jiggery-pokery with google and "Peter Moxham of the European Association of Airline Pilots Schools." Not exactly somebody who is going to say "Keep your money in the bank" is he?
One fundemental problem I have with this guy is he promotes the GAPAN test but does not seem to understand it. It does not, as he suggested, show suitability to be an airline pilot. It provides and indication that you may or may not struggle with flight training, especially the IR. It has nothing to do with personality, attitude or compatibility with the job as a whole. You may sail through GAPAN and your trainining but never pass an interview.
In fact, a quick bit of jiggery-pokery with google and "Peter Moxham of the European Association of Airline Pilots Schools." Not exactly somebody who is going to say "Keep your money in the bank" is he?
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Great reply from RVR800 and I would like to add to some of what they have said.
I would be very careful to believe everything you hear, because I have found that you are often told what you want to hear. I went to Oxford and worked very hard, had the time of my life and got good results. When I started the course in 2002 at the age of 27, (and handed over £53,604) I was told two things:
1. "You're coming into the industry at the right time. The airlines are set to start recruiting again next year when you qualify." Well, how can you say this about such a volatile industry?
2. "You are the perfect age because airlines like people with some work experience behind them". How come then, when I left at the age of 28, I was advised by the careers guy to hide my age in my CV! The only three people off my course who are flying for airlines are all under the age of 23, recommended by Oxford! I was made to feel very old.
We were told many times that there is a large amount of people looking for work representing the quantity but, as Oxford graduates, we will represent the quality and be best placed to find a job. Hmmm. This is just wrong and an example of them telling us what we wanted to hear.
After sitting at home unemployed for nearly 6 months, spending my days sending out CVs and visiting airfields looking for work, I decided to change my tactics. I looked for any work in the airline industry. I wanted something on my CV to show the experience I would be gaining. I was about to start working as a baggage handler when I got a different job working in Ground Operations for an airline. I have thoroughly enjoyed working in Ops and my knowledge of the industry is 100 times what it was before. I have recently been successful in an assessment to fly for them from the New Year - which is brilliant news and I am very happy! Apart from the flying job I have secured, I have gained an amazing amount of knowledge and awareness about the airline and how it works, with insight into operational decisions and crewing problems.
WRT RVR800's point about foreign pilots, I would say the biggest shock to me when I started working in the industry and for my airline was just how many foreign pilots there are working for UK airlines, mostly from Scandanavia. This is a big obstacle to all those newly qualified UK pilots who send their CVs to EZY and others.
I have also been shocked at how regularly crew shortages occur and how a whole flight has to be subbed-out to another airline because a Captain cannot be found for cover. It seems that airlines work with the fewest number of crew possible sometimes but you can hardly blame them for that. There may be worries from airline pilots about pilot shortages because they are the ones having to take up the strain, but it is the accountants of the airline that have the ultimate say on pilot numbers.
I do honestly believe though, that an upturn is on the way it;s got to be!!
I would be very careful to believe everything you hear, because I have found that you are often told what you want to hear. I went to Oxford and worked very hard, had the time of my life and got good results. When I started the course in 2002 at the age of 27, (and handed over £53,604) I was told two things:
1. "You're coming into the industry at the right time. The airlines are set to start recruiting again next year when you qualify." Well, how can you say this about such a volatile industry?
2. "You are the perfect age because airlines like people with some work experience behind them". How come then, when I left at the age of 28, I was advised by the careers guy to hide my age in my CV! The only three people off my course who are flying for airlines are all under the age of 23, recommended by Oxford! I was made to feel very old.
We were told many times that there is a large amount of people looking for work representing the quantity but, as Oxford graduates, we will represent the quality and be best placed to find a job. Hmmm. This is just wrong and an example of them telling us what we wanted to hear.
After sitting at home unemployed for nearly 6 months, spending my days sending out CVs and visiting airfields looking for work, I decided to change my tactics. I looked for any work in the airline industry. I wanted something on my CV to show the experience I would be gaining. I was about to start working as a baggage handler when I got a different job working in Ground Operations for an airline. I have thoroughly enjoyed working in Ops and my knowledge of the industry is 100 times what it was before. I have recently been successful in an assessment to fly for them from the New Year - which is brilliant news and I am very happy! Apart from the flying job I have secured, I have gained an amazing amount of knowledge and awareness about the airline and how it works, with insight into operational decisions and crewing problems.
WRT RVR800's point about foreign pilots, I would say the biggest shock to me when I started working in the industry and for my airline was just how many foreign pilots there are working for UK airlines, mostly from Scandanavia. This is a big obstacle to all those newly qualified UK pilots who send their CVs to EZY and others.
I have also been shocked at how regularly crew shortages occur and how a whole flight has to be subbed-out to another airline because a Captain cannot be found for cover. It seems that airlines work with the fewest number of crew possible sometimes but you can hardly blame them for that. There may be worries from airline pilots about pilot shortages because they are the ones having to take up the strain, but it is the accountants of the airline that have the ultimate say on pilot numbers.
I do honestly believe though, that an upturn is on the way it;s got to be!!
Its never a great time to start training. No school gives you a particular job getting advantage over another school.
These two truths I hold to be true.
There are some good times to be looking for a job. 1988 and 1999 spring to mind. However nobody predicted that 18 months in advance so its like horse racing and the stock market really. Luck half the time.
Your story about working in other sectors of aviation to gain experience is one I have heard time and time again over the years. Only recently did I bump into an FO in the crewroom who used to be a rostering officer with a Frzn ATPL...
Companies have to by law advertise all job vacancies internally first.
Cheers
WWW
These two truths I hold to be true.
There are some good times to be looking for a job. 1988 and 1999 spring to mind. However nobody predicted that 18 months in advance so its like horse racing and the stock market really. Luck half the time.
Your story about working in other sectors of aviation to gain experience is one I have heard time and time again over the years. Only recently did I bump into an FO in the crewroom who used to be a rostering officer with a Frzn ATPL...
Companies have to by law advertise all job vacancies internally first.
Cheers
WWW
Only half a speed-brake
As a side-note, the eastern european argument does not apply as stated above.
edited for spelling
edited for spelling
Last edited by FlightDetent; 24th Nov 2004 at 12:39.
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Schools
Sorry WWW, I thought BA were getting in students from Jerez and Oxford for interviews?
Not really an endorsement in my mind of either school, more so BA being very lazy and going with what they know rather than, God forbid, going into the masses of other perfectly qualified pilots and conducting interviews that involve asking a few more questions.
Is being the BA recruitment manager the easiest job in the world or what? Its like the HR manager at Shell sitting in his office saying, "I'm only interested in Chemical Engineers from Cambridge who have high grades". Plenty of other people out there who attend other establishments with a better reputation and better marks but they don't get a look in.
Needless to say it looks as if the PR/Marketing machine at both these schools is in full swing, just remember all fellow wannabes, where a good slice of you £55-60k goes . . . . straight into the marketing department to produce glossy brochures, all singing all dancing websites and to lobby the airlines.
I'm starting an internship program in the states in early Jan, costing me £30k all in including a salary and my accomodation, I'd rather use the £25-30k I save to fund my own lobbing campaign and improve my CV with extra qualifications.
Not really an endorsement in my mind of either school, more so BA being very lazy and going with what they know rather than, God forbid, going into the masses of other perfectly qualified pilots and conducting interviews that involve asking a few more questions.
Is being the BA recruitment manager the easiest job in the world or what? Its like the HR manager at Shell sitting in his office saying, "I'm only interested in Chemical Engineers from Cambridge who have high grades". Plenty of other people out there who attend other establishments with a better reputation and better marks but they don't get a look in.
Needless to say it looks as if the PR/Marketing machine at both these schools is in full swing, just remember all fellow wannabes, where a good slice of you £55-60k goes . . . . straight into the marketing department to produce glossy brochures, all singing all dancing websites and to lobby the airlines.
I'm starting an internship program in the states in early Jan, costing me £30k all in including a salary and my accomodation, I'd rather use the £25-30k I save to fund my own lobbing campaign and improve my CV with extra qualifications.
Yes BA are going to look at recently graduated Integrated students from all the schools who offer that. There is of course no guarantee that any will pass selection. We are talking a few dozen places spread about three very large schools encompassing a good few courses from each school.
Maybe its fair to say that going Integrated therefore at the moment affords you a slightly better chance of going straigt into BA. About a one in one hundred chance.
If you think you'll be ace of the base and that BA will happen to be looking the month you graduate and that you'll pass their selection then go right ahead. Me, I'd probably go Modular and spend the £20k difference on an instructors rating, a 737 type rating, or on joining a small aviation outfit and offering to help pay for the type rating there once they'd seen you up close for 6 months.
Its a bit like playing roulette - do you want to put all your chips on number 7 or all your chips on black?
Me I'd put them all on black.
Cheers
WWW
Maybe its fair to say that going Integrated therefore at the moment affords you a slightly better chance of going straigt into BA. About a one in one hundred chance.
If you think you'll be ace of the base and that BA will happen to be looking the month you graduate and that you'll pass their selection then go right ahead. Me, I'd probably go Modular and spend the £20k difference on an instructors rating, a 737 type rating, or on joining a small aviation outfit and offering to help pay for the type rating there once they'd seen you up close for 6 months.
Its a bit like playing roulette - do you want to put all your chips on number 7 or all your chips on black?
Me I'd put them all on black.
Cheers
WWW
And for the long term prognosis, at the international flight safety convention in Shanghai last week, the deputy director of aviation for the People's Republic of China mentioned thet the PRC has 800 western built jets on it's register now, but in 6 years time there will be 1800. This will lead to a shortfall of about 8000 pilots. Local training will not meet this shortfall. Some Asian operators (Hainan Airlines for example) are already recruiting westerners on good packages. This recruitment will only expand and the packages will get better.
This backs up a recent comment in Flight magazine that the main limit to the expansion of Asian carriers will be a pilot shortage. One low cost carrier has been forced to run a cadet scheme.
Even if the European markets do not pick up, there will be a big draw of pilots to Asia. With a bit of luck we will soon see an end to the self funded type ratings that MOL and others have devalued our profession with.
This backs up a recent comment in Flight magazine that the main limit to the expansion of Asian carriers will be a pilot shortage. One low cost carrier has been forced to run a cadet scheme.
Even if the European markets do not pick up, there will be a big draw of pilots to Asia. With a bit of luck we will soon see an end to the self funded type ratings that MOL and others have devalued our profession with.
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Regis,
I'm not suprised. However, it must be difficult to find an 'expert' on Flight Training who is not actually in the training business!
The magazines need to be able to draw on a selection of line training captains for these sort of articles. Those in the business who have an opinion on what they want with no particular interest other than getting good staff inducted.
I'm not suprised. However, it must be difficult to find an 'expert' on Flight Training who is not actually in the training business!
The magazines need to be able to draw on a selection of line training captains for these sort of articles. Those in the business who have an opinion on what they want with no particular interest other than getting good staff inducted.
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Makes me wonder, with China now coming out of itself, the demand for world oil will skyrocket, as will prices. More cars, more aeroplanes and the Americans wasting huge sums of oil as it already does, is it not only a matter of decades before all the worlds oil is depleated?
Interesting thought. The massive start up and expansion of civil aviation in the Middle East and Far East in the late 70's to mid 90's did draw quite a lot of British and American pilots into the expat scene. I had rather thought the process was stagnant or in decline.
The prospect of the same happening with the emergene of India and China is mouth watering.
Though one wonders will those countries adopt more of an in-country training progamme - rather than rely so heavily on expats? Just from a guess culturally I would think they more likley to put into place robust cadet schemes.
Fingers crossed though. It wouldn't take much more than about 1,000 experienced pilots to go expat for there to be a slight shortage in the UK.
That's be nice for us all.
WWW
The prospect of the same happening with the emergene of India and China is mouth watering.
Though one wonders will those countries adopt more of an in-country training progamme - rather than rely so heavily on expats? Just from a guess culturally I would think they more likley to put into place robust cadet schemes.
Fingers crossed though. It wouldn't take much more than about 1,000 experienced pilots to go expat for there to be a slight shortage in the UK.
That's be nice for us all.
WWW