Yes - Airlines Do Need Pilots !
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The biggest problem is probably that people in general think, that just because they have made it through the ATPL-course, they are qualified to a commercial multicrew environment. Pre training aptitude tests and crew cooporation excercises should be MANDATORY before any CPL training in order to make people not wasting their money on something they are not suited to become. Just like any other education, the pilot training business should ensure a certain level of academic and social intelligentia. Why do people have the opinion that a CPL/IR is every mans right?
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Yes airlines are looking for pilots at the moment because this is the time of year they take people on.
End of the summer season, get people in for interviews, assessments, give them a job offer, work out their 3 months notice, then start with new airline ready for the next summer season.
Of these pilots being taken on, how many are without airline experience? At the moment there are jobs for pilots with the right experience, the right number of hours and the right type rating.
Winter time is recruitment time for the airlines.
End of the summer season, get people in for interviews, assessments, give them a job offer, work out their 3 months notice, then start with new airline ready for the next summer season.
Of these pilots being taken on, how many are without airline experience? At the moment there are jobs for pilots with the right experience, the right number of hours and the right type rating.
Winter time is recruitment time for the airlines.
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Griffin, whilst slightly off topic, I feel I must answer your post.
I understand the point you are making, but the world of flight training doesn't seem to work like that.
No there are no formal pre selection courses for most flight schools, so what should one do. Wait till there are ?
Its not an ideal system by any means that allows a person who may never have what it takes to operate multi crew,
but for most of usself sponsered bods its the only system .
I dont feel that a CPL/IR is every mans right as you put it , but I do have self confidence in my ability and I am working
damm hard at getting the right result.
If one doesn't try then isn't that worse than failing ?
I understand the point you are making, but the world of flight training doesn't seem to work like that.
No there are no formal pre selection courses for most flight schools, so what should one do. Wait till there are ?
Its not an ideal system by any means that allows a person who may never have what it takes to operate multi crew,
but for most of usself sponsered bods its the only system .
I dont feel that a CPL/IR is every mans right as you put it , but I do have self confidence in my ability and I am working
damm hard at getting the right result.
If one doesn't try then isn't that worse than failing ?
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GRIFFIN2000,
If someone has made it all the way through the fATPL then they do deserve a job. They deserve a reward for their hard work and determination. Sadly, whether they'll get one is another matter but then hey that's economics and recruitment requirements - same in any industry!
Are you seriously suggesting that failure at some computer game should rule someone out of training to be a pilot? I wonder if you'd failed you might have a different view? Do you not think that after 250 hrs of training inc CPL/IR they've probably learnt a thing or two about flying?
I don't think anyone does... They'd just like to learn how to fly aircraft!
Cheers,
Biscuit
If someone has made it all the way through the fATPL then they do deserve a job. They deserve a reward for their hard work and determination. Sadly, whether they'll get one is another matter but then hey that's economics and recruitment requirements - same in any industry!
Are you seriously suggesting that failure at some computer game should rule someone out of training to be a pilot? I wonder if you'd failed you might have a different view? Do you not think that after 250 hrs of training inc CPL/IR they've probably learnt a thing or two about flying?
Why do people have the opinion that a CPL/IR is every mans right?
Cheers,
Biscuit
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Thanks for the reactions on a topic that I believe hasn`t been discussed in a way it deserves.
The thing I want to high light is that there are many guys around that has a cpl/ir that they accuired at "Fastbuck flight training, Wonderland, Florida". Many of these should probably have saved themselves a lot of money, pride and time if they hadn`t started their training. With this I mean that you can be very good at theory and somewhat good at flying and pass the cpl/ir tests but this does NOT mean that you are suited for a job in an Airline/Commuter (Crew cooperation).
So when the general impression is that "there are a lot of unemployed guys out there", how many of them are really qualified and suitable? A lot of them will never get a job because their personality/cooperation skills will be measured below required when on tests/interviews for the airlines. Why not test this before they start their basic training???!!!!
Have met a lot of strange people whom I reluctantly would sit beside during 13 hours to BKK or when the **** hits the fan.
Why shouldn`t flight training be at the same level as any other education?
I do not by any means wish to start a debate here about EUR vs USA as I am not in favour of any.
I was self sponsored myself and now work for an FTO.
The thing I want to high light is that there are many guys around that has a cpl/ir that they accuired at "Fastbuck flight training, Wonderland, Florida". Many of these should probably have saved themselves a lot of money, pride and time if they hadn`t started their training. With this I mean that you can be very good at theory and somewhat good at flying and pass the cpl/ir tests but this does NOT mean that you are suited for a job in an Airline/Commuter (Crew cooperation).
So when the general impression is that "there are a lot of unemployed guys out there", how many of them are really qualified and suitable? A lot of them will never get a job because their personality/cooperation skills will be measured below required when on tests/interviews for the airlines. Why not test this before they start their basic training???!!!!
Have met a lot of strange people whom I reluctantly would sit beside during 13 hours to BKK or when the **** hits the fan.
Why shouldn`t flight training be at the same level as any other education?
I do not by any means wish to start a debate here about EUR vs USA as I am not in favour of any.
I was self sponsored myself and now work for an FTO.
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I think Griffin has a valid point. I am currently post PPL, aged 34 and seriously thinking about persuing the fATPL goal and subsequent employment.
I have read alot of info in the recent months, much from this illustrious organ
. However, having spend the last 12 years in a professional (non aviation) career and knowing the recruitment policy of the company (major multi-national) which I work for, I know that Griffins point of the qualifications not guaranteeing a job are spot on. How many people have got law degrees and yet never get lawyers jobs, how many accountants, engineers, doctors never get jobs - a lot. Just because you've got the skills to complete the course (and in our case, the dosh to pay for it) does not under any circumstances mean that you are 'employable' whatever criterea the prospective employers may decide to apply to that definition.
As for me, well I would rather do this thing with all the risk that it entails, than look back aged 60 and say, "what if?".
Besides I enjoy flying , the flight training may be expensive, but its still stick time in an aircraft, which I would be paying for anyway even if I just stayed PPL and flew for fun (OK it would be somwhat cheaper!)
I have read alot of info in the recent months, much from this illustrious organ
. However, having spend the last 12 years in a professional (non aviation) career and knowing the recruitment policy of the company (major multi-national) which I work for, I know that Griffins point of the qualifications not guaranteeing a job are spot on. How many people have got law degrees and yet never get lawyers jobs, how many accountants, engineers, doctors never get jobs - a lot. Just because you've got the skills to complete the course (and in our case, the dosh to pay for it) does not under any circumstances mean that you are 'employable' whatever criterea the prospective employers may decide to apply to that definition.As for me, well I would rather do this thing with all the risk that it entails, than look back aged 60 and say, "what if?".
Besides I enjoy flying , the flight training may be expensive, but its still stick time in an aircraft, which I would be paying for anyway even if I just stayed PPL and flew for fun (OK it would be somwhat cheaper!)
Last edited by AlexL; 25th Nov 2004 at 13:10.
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If someone has made it all the way through the fATPL then they do deserve a job
GRIFFIN has got it a bit upside down also: he seems to be suggesting that you should be psycho-profiled before you're allowed to spend your own money on a speculative qualification. Rubbish! If I want to go and do a medical degree at 48 years old, and I have the money to do so, no-one can stop me. If I want to pay to drive a Formula 1 car, no-one can stop me. But if I applied to be a Doctor or an F1 driver, I would have to run through the assessment process of the appropriate recruiters - and I probably wouldn't get very far.
It is not the job of employers (or anyone else) to tell you what qualifications you should be allowed to take. That's completely up to you. But if you want to work for me, I will require from you very high minimum standards of paper qualifications, experience, and evidence of suitability for the task at hand. Where the job offered is for people new to the profession, I will require you to go through various assessment procedures that will allow me to judge whether you are likely to make a good pilot in my airline - which may have a very different ethos from the airline over the road.
That is not the job of the examination authorities; it is the airlines' job.
Scroggs
Well I have an ATPL. Not a fATPL, a real ATPL. Would I want to fly in a post-9/11 airliner? Yes - absolutely. But only as a passenger..
90 minutes spent locked into a 'broom cupboard with a view' in the company of a stranger 4 times per day? Forget it!
90 minutes spent locked into a 'broom cupboard with a view' in the company of a stranger 4 times per day? Forget it!
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Most of the airline assesments are complete tosh anyway. I sat the aptitude tests for a well known charter airlines cadet scheme two years ago. I have the letter then sent after - "our tests have shown you lack the technical and mental aptitude to succeed at flight training".
I passed all written exams first time (average just under 90%) and first time IR pass.
I regard my license as a bit more then some trophy. They are what I won as kid for playing cricket and stuff. But getting the CPL/IR was always going to be the easy part. Getting the job is the tough part.
I passed all written exams first time (average just under 90%) and first time IR pass.
I regard my license as a bit more then some trophy. They are what I won as kid for playing cricket and stuff. But getting the CPL/IR was always going to be the easy part. Getting the job is the tough part.
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To timzsta.
The charter airline probably thought that you were not going to be able to follow the progression in their program as put in their syllabus. That is why FTO:s, that have pre training tests, screen out applicants to ensure that you will succeed without extra training etc, which put a lot of strain and extra work on the organisation. Why shall an FTO put a lot of effort to get you through when they can find people who wont? Just compare this to the airforce. Same way of thinking there. Of course there will be a few mistakes but after almost 6 years in the training business I know that the aptitude tests work VERY well and that in 99% of the cases the results from these tests match perfect to the performance of the student...
The charter airline probably thought that you were not going to be able to follow the progression in their program as put in their syllabus. That is why FTO:s, that have pre training tests, screen out applicants to ensure that you will succeed without extra training etc, which put a lot of strain and extra work on the organisation. Why shall an FTO put a lot of effort to get you through when they can find people who wont? Just compare this to the airforce. Same way of thinking there. Of course there will be a few mistakes but after almost 6 years in the training business I know that the aptitude tests work VERY well and that in 99% of the cases the results from these tests match perfect to the performance of the student...
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You could always try getting a pilot job in China (with CZ)!:
China grapples with pilot shortage
Leithen Francis, Singapore (07Dec04, 05:08 GMT, 450 words)
Rapid growth in China’s airline sector has created a shortage of trained commercial pilots, a problem Chinese authorities are now trying to grapple with.
China will need to recruit 12,000 pilots from now to 2010 but its two certified pilot training schools are only capable of training a total of 850-900 pilots per year, according to figures from Civil Aviation Administration of China’s (CAAC) flight standards department.
“If we operate 1,200 transportation category aircraft by the year 2010 [from] about 700 transportation aircraft by the end of 2004, we will probably need to recruit at least 12,000 commercial pilots from now to the year 2010,” the CAAC department says in an emailed response to a query from ATI.
It says currently the CAAC Flying College in Sichuan province can train 600-700 pilots a year while the China Southern Airlines Flying School in Perth, Australia is capable of training 150-200 per annum.
“Besides these two schools, the airlines in China recruit their pilots by sending cadets for flight license training in foreign countries such as Australia and the USA.
“Number of cadets is quite different each year from 100-200 each year,” it adds.
Some Chinese airlines have also resorted to recruiting pilots from overseas to overcome the problem of pilot shortage, while others have delayed taking delivery of some aircraft.
Shanghai Airlines, for example, has delayed taking its last two Boeing 757-200s on order from Boeing simply because it lacks the pilots to operate the aircraft.
Air China, which has some Airbus A320 family aircraft on order, is currently looking to recruit an unspecified number of A320 pilots from overseas. The CAAC flight standards department says there already are about 30 foreign pilots currently working in China for local carriers such as Shenzhen Airlines.
It says although China currently only has two CAAC certified commercial pilot training schools at least two other schools are planned.
Beijing Pan Am Aviation Academy last month unveiled plans to acquire 60 trainers from Diamond. The CAAC flight standards department says the school, located at Shi Jia Zhuang Airport in Hebei province, should be certified and start flight training operations in the first half of next year.
It also says “Flying Dragon flying school in Harbin …will apply for commercial pilot training”.
While the CAAC flight standards department is working to increase the country’s pilot training capability, the CAAC air safety office recently issued a directive of its own that addresses the problem of pilot shortage.
Its directive states that Chinese airlines wishing to order or lease aircraft after 1 December 2004 must do an evaluation and complete a report to show that the carrier has the pilots and maintenance capability to support the additional aircraft.
Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
China grapples with pilot shortage
Leithen Francis, Singapore (07Dec04, 05:08 GMT, 450 words)
Rapid growth in China’s airline sector has created a shortage of trained commercial pilots, a problem Chinese authorities are now trying to grapple with.
China will need to recruit 12,000 pilots from now to 2010 but its two certified pilot training schools are only capable of training a total of 850-900 pilots per year, according to figures from Civil Aviation Administration of China’s (CAAC) flight standards department.
“If we operate 1,200 transportation category aircraft by the year 2010 [from] about 700 transportation aircraft by the end of 2004, we will probably need to recruit at least 12,000 commercial pilots from now to the year 2010,” the CAAC department says in an emailed response to a query from ATI.
It says currently the CAAC Flying College in Sichuan province can train 600-700 pilots a year while the China Southern Airlines Flying School in Perth, Australia is capable of training 150-200 per annum.
“Besides these two schools, the airlines in China recruit their pilots by sending cadets for flight license training in foreign countries such as Australia and the USA.
“Number of cadets is quite different each year from 100-200 each year,” it adds.
Some Chinese airlines have also resorted to recruiting pilots from overseas to overcome the problem of pilot shortage, while others have delayed taking delivery of some aircraft.
Shanghai Airlines, for example, has delayed taking its last two Boeing 757-200s on order from Boeing simply because it lacks the pilots to operate the aircraft.
Air China, which has some Airbus A320 family aircraft on order, is currently looking to recruit an unspecified number of A320 pilots from overseas. The CAAC flight standards department says there already are about 30 foreign pilots currently working in China for local carriers such as Shenzhen Airlines.
It says although China currently only has two CAAC certified commercial pilot training schools at least two other schools are planned.
Beijing Pan Am Aviation Academy last month unveiled plans to acquire 60 trainers from Diamond. The CAAC flight standards department says the school, located at Shi Jia Zhuang Airport in Hebei province, should be certified and start flight training operations in the first half of next year.
It also says “Flying Dragon flying school in Harbin …will apply for commercial pilot training”.
While the CAAC flight standards department is working to increase the country’s pilot training capability, the CAAC air safety office recently issued a directive of its own that addresses the problem of pilot shortage.
Its directive states that Chinese airlines wishing to order or lease aircraft after 1 December 2004 must do an evaluation and complete a report to show that the carrier has the pilots and maintenance capability to support the additional aircraft.
Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
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isnt 99% a lil too much? since when did a test start determining the absolute ability of a pilot...its helps in assesing but it certainly isnt the absolute judgement of a pilots skills :P
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Pre-course assessment
A qualification of any sort does not give you the 'right' to a job.
A fATPL is the minimum qualification needed to do this job
In a market where supply exceeds demand there will be many
disappointed people - its just the market
Medicine is a rare example of a profession where one needs to satisfy stringent pre entry criteria that is not typical of a self selected student doing fATPL training....Its unusual in that its paid for by the NHS in the large part, and leads to a guaranteed well paid job for life.... Its a long training with more than just a few months of exams like the JAA FCL stuff! More like 10 years rather than 10 months!
Theres a shortage of doctors and dentists there is NO shortage of pilots. Partly cos its quick and relatively easy to train a pilot...
One thing that is lacking in all this is a forward view of risk for people contemplating spending 60-100 K
They will be forced because of the freedom of Information Act next year to address this and give us more information...
The FAA do this but they have a poilicy of promoting the flying training sector without abolishing it....unlike th eCAA that keep their student progression data secret ... and thats cos of vested interest!
A fATPL is the minimum qualification needed to do this job
In a market where supply exceeds demand there will be many
disappointed people - its just the market
Medicine is a rare example of a profession where one needs to satisfy stringent pre entry criteria that is not typical of a self selected student doing fATPL training....Its unusual in that its paid for by the NHS in the large part, and leads to a guaranteed well paid job for life.... Its a long training with more than just a few months of exams like the JAA FCL stuff! More like 10 years rather than 10 months!
Theres a shortage of doctors and dentists there is NO shortage of pilots. Partly cos its quick and relatively easy to train a pilot...
One thing that is lacking in all this is a forward view of risk for people contemplating spending 60-100 K
They will be forced because of the freedom of Information Act next year to address this and give us more information...
The FAA do this but they have a poilicy of promoting the flying training sector without abolishing it....unlike th eCAA that keep their student progression data secret ... and thats cos of vested interest!
