ATPL ground school UK
Guest
Posts: n/a
Have you considered a modular approach in the comfort of your own home at your own speed, for a fraction of the cost.
I mention it as a couple of the people on my crammer course wanted to get the job done quicker than the integrated school’s timetable would allow them to.
Add the excellent support package from these schools, the crammer courses and a smattering of self discipline, one can have it done in a jiffy.
I am more than happy to endorse BGS as indeed are numerous other successful punters, but it's worth keeping your options open.
I mention it as a couple of the people on my crammer course wanted to get the job done quicker than the integrated school’s timetable would allow them to.
Add the excellent support package from these schools, the crammer courses and a smattering of self discipline, one can have it done in a jiffy.
I am more than happy to endorse BGS as indeed are numerous other successful punters, but it's worth keeping your options open.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dorset
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TRISLANDER,
It is good to hear that you are happy with your training. But some of the factors which you have listed as justification for the higher price need further examination.
"Smaller class sizes (Max 15 rather than 20+)"
EPTA has never had a class of 20+. The largest that I can recall was 17. The average class size over the past 2 years has been closer to 12. I have heard that BCFT guarantee not more than 15 in a class. But is this not simply because their rather small classrooms could not accommodate more than 15? If we were ever to have a class of 20 at EPTA, the students furthest from the instructor would still only be in the third row. The fact is that EPTA classrooms are far more spacious than those at BCFT.
"Genuine interest from the instructors in ME rather than my wallet"
If you talk to any of our students you will find that they are delighted with the attitude of all of our instructors. For example, it is not at all unusual for instructors to give up their lunch breaks to go over any problem subjecst on a one to one basis with students. You will also find that they are all absolutely baffled as to why anyone would want to pay almost twice as much to go to BCFT. A further significant point is that EPTA and its ground school instructors will never charge you anything for this extra tuition.
The BCFT instructors may well be interested in the welfare of their students. But can you say the same of the management? Earlier in the year the CAA wanted to have an examination centre at Bournemouth. They were particularly keen to conduct a trial during the September exams, when an unusually large number of students would be participating.
Having spent the best part of three weeks researching possible venues, I suggested five possibilities. The first four were hotels, all of which would make a rather large charge for their services.
In each case there was also a possible problem with parking and regular long term availability.
The fifth was an offer of the free use of an EPTA classroom. This could have accommodated all of the students from the Bournemouth schools, plus an extra 8 or so from other schools. All concerned were happy with this arrangement, until the BCFT management decided that they were not prepared to let their students use the EPTA classroom. They would prefer that their students incur the additional cost and inconvenience of going to Gatwick. Because of this the trial was cancelled and an extra room was used at Silsoe.
"Wasn't whisked off into an office by a sales rep a soon as I entered the premises"
It is certainly true that Liz likes to provide a quite area in which to conduct discussions. Most prospective customers prefer this as it enables them to discuss their worries and problems in private.
"Had a chance to chat alone with the current students to see what they thought of the place"
I always advise prospective customers to do this. The comments made by our many happy students are the best possible advertisements of the school.
"Wasn't given an irrelevant tour of European Aviation's flight simulator hall"
Many prospective customers are interested in seeing the full range of facilities that we have availalable. The European Aviation simulator is the one used for the MCC, so it is relevant to people who may envisage doing the whole programme with EPTA.
"Chatted informally with an instructor and was shown the training manuals"
I and all of the instructors are always delighted to chat with prospective customers. We are also very pleased to let them see our manuals and to discuss their strong and weak points.
"Didn't have a load of building work going on right outside the classrooms"
It is true that building work was being carried out in an ajoining part of the building earlier in the year. This was beyond the control of EPTA. But it lasted only a few weeks and was completed many months ago. Can any school really say that such work will not affect them at some time in the future?
It is good to hear that you are happy with your training. But some of the factors which you have listed as justification for the higher price need further examination.
"Smaller class sizes (Max 15 rather than 20+)"
EPTA has never had a class of 20+. The largest that I can recall was 17. The average class size over the past 2 years has been closer to 12. I have heard that BCFT guarantee not more than 15 in a class. But is this not simply because their rather small classrooms could not accommodate more than 15? If we were ever to have a class of 20 at EPTA, the students furthest from the instructor would still only be in the third row. The fact is that EPTA classrooms are far more spacious than those at BCFT.
"Genuine interest from the instructors in ME rather than my wallet"
If you talk to any of our students you will find that they are delighted with the attitude of all of our instructors. For example, it is not at all unusual for instructors to give up their lunch breaks to go over any problem subjecst on a one to one basis with students. You will also find that they are all absolutely baffled as to why anyone would want to pay almost twice as much to go to BCFT. A further significant point is that EPTA and its ground school instructors will never charge you anything for this extra tuition.
The BCFT instructors may well be interested in the welfare of their students. But can you say the same of the management? Earlier in the year the CAA wanted to have an examination centre at Bournemouth. They were particularly keen to conduct a trial during the September exams, when an unusually large number of students would be participating.
Having spent the best part of three weeks researching possible venues, I suggested five possibilities. The first four were hotels, all of which would make a rather large charge for their services.
In each case there was also a possible problem with parking and regular long term availability.
The fifth was an offer of the free use of an EPTA classroom. This could have accommodated all of the students from the Bournemouth schools, plus an extra 8 or so from other schools. All concerned were happy with this arrangement, until the BCFT management decided that they were not prepared to let their students use the EPTA classroom. They would prefer that their students incur the additional cost and inconvenience of going to Gatwick. Because of this the trial was cancelled and an extra room was used at Silsoe.
"Wasn't whisked off into an office by a sales rep a soon as I entered the premises"
It is certainly true that Liz likes to provide a quite area in which to conduct discussions. Most prospective customers prefer this as it enables them to discuss their worries and problems in private.
"Had a chance to chat alone with the current students to see what they thought of the place"
I always advise prospective customers to do this. The comments made by our many happy students are the best possible advertisements of the school.
"Wasn't given an irrelevant tour of European Aviation's flight simulator hall"
Many prospective customers are interested in seeing the full range of facilities that we have availalable. The European Aviation simulator is the one used for the MCC, so it is relevant to people who may envisage doing the whole programme with EPTA.
"Chatted informally with an instructor and was shown the training manuals"
I and all of the instructors are always delighted to chat with prospective customers. We are also very pleased to let them see our manuals and to discuss their strong and weak points.
"Didn't have a load of building work going on right outside the classrooms"
It is true that building work was being carried out in an ajoining part of the building earlier in the year. This was beyond the control of EPTA. But it lasted only a few weeks and was completed many months ago. Can any school really say that such work will not affect them at some time in the future?
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although this is a rumour network, Keith, it is not really acceptable to post inaccurate rumours about your competition.
If you want a chat about our respective management, I am very happy to, but you must know that I used to work for yours. Plenty of people here remember the past - it was almost exactly 3 years ago, wasn't it? How much did students lose by that? Compare that to our management. A good example, the reason we only have small classes is that our management actually listen to us, and operates the schools how the instructors think they can teach, rather than for pure profit. The classrooms are approved by the CAA for 24 or 25 students, giving plenty of room for the 12 students we prefer or the guaranteed maximum of 15. Are your management as supportive? How are the notes by the way?
You may not understand why people pay extra. I would argue that you have just told us - the very fact that you don't understand what extra our students get here is the reason they come here to get it. Come across, I can show you. We can take the competition, even if you do learn from us.
If you want a chat about our respective management, I am very happy to, but you must know that I used to work for yours. Plenty of people here remember the past - it was almost exactly 3 years ago, wasn't it? How much did students lose by that? Compare that to our management. A good example, the reason we only have small classes is that our management actually listen to us, and operates the schools how the instructors think they can teach, rather than for pure profit. The classrooms are approved by the CAA for 24 or 25 students, giving plenty of room for the 12 students we prefer or the guaranteed maximum of 15. Are your management as supportive? How are the notes by the way?
You may not understand why people pay extra. I would argue that you have just told us - the very fact that you don't understand what extra our students get here is the reason they come here to get it. Come across, I can show you. We can take the competition, even if you do learn from us.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: BRISTOL
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NO NOT BRISTOL
You have to be careful here in who you believe, do you really know whose giving you the advice? I can tell you this that I know of at least 10 -15 people who left Bristol and went to other places with better instructors and a more "hands on" approach with the students. If your impressed by expensive clicky CBTs then your going to buy the Bristol package (it won't be a quick easy way to learn) If you have previous experience then you'll get by o.k. The other options are Oxford and GTS in the Bournemouth, GTS being the RAF favourite and rightly so and if I were just starting out they would be mine. Oxford are also good but bristol if you live in London forget it. 3 hrs away and over- rated 25 to a class, a rushed 2 weeks programme and some very unhappy ex students.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wow, that's the first negative feedback about BGS I've ever heard on here - and from someone making their first post as well 
Personally I thought Bristol were great. Yes there was a lot to get through in the 2 weeks, but they never felt rushed. You're right about the higher numbers to a class though.
As for your comment on expensive clicky CBT's, I don't think there is a "quick, easy way to learn". You simply have to put in the effort yourself. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to.
PW
Personally I thought Bristol were great. Yes there was a lot to get through in the 2 weeks, but they never felt rushed. You're right about the higher numbers to a class though.
As for your comment on expensive clicky CBT's, I don't think there is a "quick, easy way to learn". You simply have to put in the effort yourself. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to.
PW
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Psuedo66. Check out GTS in B'mouth as well.
Small but perfectly formed, with class sizes of 5 to 8. And as much extra advice as you want.
They never seem to get much air time on PrUNE but people should remember that they are there in their evaluation of the possible options.
h-r
Small but perfectly formed, with class sizes of 5 to 8. And as much extra advice as you want.
They never seem to get much air time on PrUNE but people should remember that they are there in their evaluation of the possible options.
h-r
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dorset
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SEND CLOWNS
I have waited 24 hours before replying to your post because I have no wish to be drawn into another long and dreary argument with you. But some of your point require comment.
QUOTE
Plenty of people here remember the past - it was almost exactly 3 years ago, wasn't it? How much did students lose by that?
UNQUOTE
The strange thing here is that you appear to have forgotten all about the past.
Was it not you and most of BCFT who actually worked for SFT?
When the first rumours of impending problems started to surface in this forum, was it not you who shouted them down?
Did you not claim that no such problems existed, but might be created if groundless rumours were to spread?
And after the company had folded was it not you who spent several months constantly arguing that no students had lost money, and that the company was basically sound and simply had a small cash flow problem?
Was it not you who suddenly changed your tune and started to attack your old friend and previous employer, only after taking employment with BCFT?
Now here's the difficult one Clowns; Readers who have followed the whole sorry story over the past three years might be wondering whether you were being very foolish then, or are being very treacherous now. HMMMMMMM, now that IS a difficult one!
QUOTE
Compare our management. A good example, the reason we only have small classes is that our management actually listen to us, and operates the schools how the instructors think they can teach, rather than for pure profit.
UNQUOTE
Then why are you unwilling to allow all of our students (EPTA, BCFT and GTS) to use an EPTA classroom as an exam centre? It is offered free of charge and we are content for bookings to be made on a first come first served basis. Compare this with OATS who make a charge to the CAA for their exam room and still get first chance of booking places.
The offer is still open. We will provide a room every second month when our students take exams. BCFT can provide a room on alternate months when few if any EPTA students will be taking exams.
BCFT students should have some very serious discussions with with their school managemnt if they want an exam centre at Bournemouth. It can probably be in place by January if BCFT agree. But will they?
QUOTE
The classrooms are approved by the CAA for 24 or 25 students, UNQUOTE
This just illustrates your lack of knowledge of how the system works. The CAA do not approve classrooms for any specific number of students. There is however an overall limit of 24 students in any ATPL groundschool class, without exceptional approval from the CAA.
But I suppose they might impose a specific limit if they found that a given room was unusually small. If they imposed any specific limit on the BCFT classrooms then this is very unusual. They certainly imposed no such limit on the very large rooms available at EPTA.
I have waited 24 hours before replying to your post because I have no wish to be drawn into another long and dreary argument with you. But some of your point require comment.
QUOTE
Plenty of people here remember the past - it was almost exactly 3 years ago, wasn't it? How much did students lose by that?
UNQUOTE
The strange thing here is that you appear to have forgotten all about the past.
Was it not you and most of BCFT who actually worked for SFT?
When the first rumours of impending problems started to surface in this forum, was it not you who shouted them down?
Did you not claim that no such problems existed, but might be created if groundless rumours were to spread?
And after the company had folded was it not you who spent several months constantly arguing that no students had lost money, and that the company was basically sound and simply had a small cash flow problem?
Was it not you who suddenly changed your tune and started to attack your old friend and previous employer, only after taking employment with BCFT?
Now here's the difficult one Clowns; Readers who have followed the whole sorry story over the past three years might be wondering whether you were being very foolish then, or are being very treacherous now. HMMMMMMM, now that IS a difficult one!
QUOTE
Compare our management. A good example, the reason we only have small classes is that our management actually listen to us, and operates the schools how the instructors think they can teach, rather than for pure profit.
UNQUOTE
Then why are you unwilling to allow all of our students (EPTA, BCFT and GTS) to use an EPTA classroom as an exam centre? It is offered free of charge and we are content for bookings to be made on a first come first served basis. Compare this with OATS who make a charge to the CAA for their exam room and still get first chance of booking places.
The offer is still open. We will provide a room every second month when our students take exams. BCFT can provide a room on alternate months when few if any EPTA students will be taking exams.
BCFT students should have some very serious discussions with with their school managemnt if they want an exam centre at Bournemouth. It can probably be in place by January if BCFT agree. But will they?
QUOTE
The classrooms are approved by the CAA for 24 or 25 students, UNQUOTE
This just illustrates your lack of knowledge of how the system works. The CAA do not approve classrooms for any specific number of students. There is however an overall limit of 24 students in any ATPL groundschool class, without exceptional approval from the CAA.
But I suppose they might impose a specific limit if they found that a given room was unusually small. If they imposed any specific limit on the BCFT classrooms then this is very unusual. They certainly imposed no such limit on the very large rooms available at EPTA.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,804
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear, Keith.
The idea of having a new exam centre has been floating around for some time. GTS suggested, not surprisingly, that the new venue be in Bournemouth and others, amongst them me, suggested that it be elsewhere.
The CAA put out a specification for a trial which was that the new centre should should seat 70, have catering and car park facilities to match and be available free of charge. Not surprisingly, the last point is a stumbling block, particularly as the CAA rake in over half a million pounds a year in exam fees and at the moment pay Oxford, Silsoe and Glasgow for the use of their facilities. Your attempt to put forward your spare classroom was doomed to failure from the outset because it failed to meet the basic specification, you can hardly blame the other Bournemouth schools for not willingly supporting such an idiot idea . Why not use Clowns spare classroom instead, or GTS's?
For my money, they need an exam centre somewhere near Manchester, not another one in the south.
The idea of having a new exam centre has been floating around for some time. GTS suggested, not surprisingly, that the new venue be in Bournemouth and others, amongst them me, suggested that it be elsewhere.
The CAA put out a specification for a trial which was that the new centre should should seat 70, have catering and car park facilities to match and be available free of charge. Not surprisingly, the last point is a stumbling block, particularly as the CAA rake in over half a million pounds a year in exam fees and at the moment pay Oxford, Silsoe and Glasgow for the use of their facilities. Your attempt to put forward your spare classroom was doomed to failure from the outset because it failed to meet the basic specification, you can hardly blame the other Bournemouth schools for not willingly supporting such an idiot idea . Why not use Clowns spare classroom instead, or GTS's?
For my money, they need an exam centre somewhere near Manchester, not another one in the south.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dorset
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ALEX,
The CAA were quite happy with a capacity of 45. They also indicated that they would use EPTA provided the other schools in the area agreed. GTS agreed but BCFT did not.
I can understand that you would prefer any new centre to be closer to Bristol. I even suggested one at Dorchester which is about midway between the two.
The fact is that we came within a whisker of having a centre at Bournemouth. The ONLY thing that stopped it was the BCFT refusal.
The CAA were quite happy with a capacity of 45. They also indicated that they would use EPTA provided the other schools in the area agreed. GTS agreed but BCFT did not.
I can understand that you would prefer any new centre to be closer to Bristol. I even suggested one at Dorchester which is about midway between the two.
The fact is that we came within a whisker of having a centre at Bournemouth. The ONLY thing that stopped it was the BCFT refusal.
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keith,
Do NOT misrepresent me and what I am saying. NONE of the SFT management came to work for BCFT. You are talking about ground instructors. SFT had as good a reputation in that area as PPSC by the end of 2001.
Much of the rest of what you say is simply lies about what I said, or talking about what I said having been lied to or mislead. Remember who mislead us if you want to continue this discussion, Keith.
Apart from the above, I don't want to comment as I don't wish to get into an unseemly argument with you.
Do NOT misrepresent me and what I am saying. NONE of the SFT management came to work for BCFT. You are talking about ground instructors. SFT had as good a reputation in that area as PPSC by the end of 2001.
Much of the rest of what you say is simply lies about what I said, or talking about what I said having been lied to or mislead. Remember who mislead us if you want to continue this discussion, Keith.
Apart from the above, I don't want to comment as I don't wish to get into an unseemly argument with you.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bournemouth UK
Age: 49
Posts: 862
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pseudonym66 it sounds like you only have 2nd hand information about BGS. Since you didn't go there how can you comment? I would not criticise any other school since I do not know their strengths and weaknesses. As I have no basis for comparison for all I know BGS may be the worst school around, but their results and student feedback suggests they're probably the best. From my point of view, the instructors were superb, the course was interesting and I passed all 14 exams first time. If EPTA, GTS or BCFT are better than they must be extremely good schools but as I said who am I to compare, I’ve not studied with the others.
I also find it strange that you call the Bristol CD Rom expensive and clicky. The BGS course is amongst the cheapest around and the CD is merely a copy of the manual with the addition of animations which certainly helped me grasp some of the many difficult areas of the ATPL LO’s. It's also very useful for someone who takes the train to London on daily basis to be able to work from a laptop rather than carrying paper versions back and forth. The electronic progress tests are another excellent feature of the BGS CD as it gives you instantaneous feedback on your progression and it allow BGS to monitor your progress.
I think people on PPrune would prefer to have feedback from ex-students rather than 2nd hand information from someone who never went there.
I also find it strange that you call the Bristol CD Rom expensive and clicky. The BGS course is amongst the cheapest around and the CD is merely a copy of the manual with the addition of animations which certainly helped me grasp some of the many difficult areas of the ATPL LO’s. It's also very useful for someone who takes the train to London on daily basis to be able to work from a laptop rather than carrying paper versions back and forth. The electronic progress tests are another excellent feature of the BGS CD as it gives you instantaneous feedback on your progression and it allow BGS to monitor your progress.
I think people on PPrune would prefer to have feedback from ex-students rather than 2nd hand information from someone who never went there.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd love to have some feedback from any students who went to either EPTA or BCFT, but there doesn't seem to be that many???
I'm not considering BGS or GTS because they are both distant learning and I want full-time residential.
I'm not considering BGS or GTS because they are both distant learning and I want full-time residential.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Grief..................This thread has really turned into an interschool slagging match.
Come on boys: It is unseemly and unprofessional. All prospective students to the Flying Profession are expected to have a higher level of intelligence than the average driver. They know where to go to get the information regarding different schools, and using thier supposed higher intellect they make a choice.
But to see such highly regarded people bickering in public isn't on.
ALEX:
I'm most surprised at you. You and your school have a high enough regard without getting embroiled in such petty squabbling!
Come on boys: It is unseemly and unprofessional. All prospective students to the Flying Profession are expected to have a higher level of intelligence than the average driver. They know where to go to get the information regarding different schools, and using thier supposed higher intellect they make a choice.
But to see such highly regarded people bickering in public isn't on.
ALEX:
I'm most surprised at you. You and your school have a high enough regard without getting embroiled in such petty squabbling!
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While I have no wish to see schools (or anyone else) arguing on here, I have no problem with the background to the process of organising a new exam venue being discussed. I'll bet that very few wannabes have any idea of the negotiation required to get the various schools to agree on anything at all! This topic, I'm sure, is beginning to give you a clue...
However, I'm unhappy at Clown's use of the term 'liar' in this discussion. I'm aware that there are still strong feelings about the demise of SFT and PPSC, but I think that a little circumspection in the terminology used wouldn't go amiss! Calm down (said in broad scouse accent!).
Scroggs
However, I'm unhappy at Clown's use of the term 'liar' in this discussion. I'm aware that there are still strong feelings about the demise of SFT and PPSC, but I think that a little circumspection in the terminology used wouldn't go amiss! Calm down (said in broad scouse accent!).
Scroggs
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
*** Feedback from a past student ****
I did my full time groundschool at BCFT, and I was pretty happy with 95% of it. My only reservations were in the Met manuals, and some of the engines manuals, which could have been much more explicit in their explanations.
They have good feedback (or at least, when I sat the exams I found the feedback perfectly adequate).
The learning atmosphere there is second to none that I have experienced- good, relaxed atmosphere, approachable instructors and an 'open door' policy everywhere.
I got 1st time passes in all 14, and that's partly due to the quality of the school, but due also to the fact that I put in a f*** of a lot of study outside of class. I reckoned on doing about 2-2.5h (sometimes 3.5) on weekday nights, and 5-6h on a weekend day (with the other weekend day off- usually Saturday, recovering from the hangover that was a result of Friday night's excesses. And believe me, it's possible to go to excess in a big way in Bournemouth!).
Different schools are different things to different people. My gripes with the Met & Engines manuals weren't shared by any of my colleagues. By the same token, some people found the CBT that was used in instruments very useful: I always find CBT useless, boring and frustrating- but that's just me.
I've recommended BCFT to people in the past, and these people I don't think have made any regrets when they've taken the decision to do their ATPL groundschool there.
I did my full time groundschool at BCFT, and I was pretty happy with 95% of it. My only reservations were in the Met manuals, and some of the engines manuals, which could have been much more explicit in their explanations.
They have good feedback (or at least, when I sat the exams I found the feedback perfectly adequate).
The learning atmosphere there is second to none that I have experienced- good, relaxed atmosphere, approachable instructors and an 'open door' policy everywhere.
I got 1st time passes in all 14, and that's partly due to the quality of the school, but due also to the fact that I put in a f*** of a lot of study outside of class. I reckoned on doing about 2-2.5h (sometimes 3.5) on weekday nights, and 5-6h on a weekend day (with the other weekend day off- usually Saturday, recovering from the hangover that was a result of Friday night's excesses. And believe me, it's possible to go to excess in a big way in Bournemouth!).
Different schools are different things to different people. My gripes with the Met & Engines manuals weren't shared by any of my colleagues. By the same token, some people found the CBT that was used in instruments very useful: I always find CBT useless, boring and frustrating- but that's just me.
I've recommended BCFT to people in the past, and these people I don't think have made any regrets when they've taken the decision to do their ATPL groundschool there.
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exam Centres
It would make a lot more sense to locate an exam centre in N England. At the moment the closest to "The North" is Silsoe, which can be a 3 hour drive.
If the CAA is serious about the exams being a national institution then they need to put in place a strategy to break the Southern stranglehold, both on centres and on training.
It discriminates against the North because our travel and accom. costs are higher for the whole course.
Remember to build this into your business plans and loan applications ...
h-r
If the CAA is serious about the exams being a national institution then they need to put in place a strategy to break the Southern stranglehold, both on centres and on training.
It discriminates against the North because our travel and accom. costs are higher for the whole course.
Remember to build this into your business plans and loan applications ...
h-r
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dorset
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no fundamental reason why there should be only one additional exam centre. Provided suggestions are made to be attractive enough, the CAA have no reason to refuse.
I suspect that they have three basic concerns:
a. To minimise venue rental costs.
b. To minimise additional staff costs.
c. To protect the security of the system.
The specification issued to the Bournemouth schools did not include any requirement that the venue be provided free of charge. Because I am particulary keen to see a centre established at Bournemouth I suggested that EPTA provide a room for free, and my boss agreed.
The CAA looked at my list of possible venues and discusssed availability with some of them. The main stumbling block was not the price, but the fact that none were available for September when the CAA wanted to conduct their trial. The only remaining venue was the EPTA classroom which was accepted by GTS, but rejected by BCFT.
If schools are sufficiently keen to have an exam centre in their area they need to consider the option of paying the additional staff costs. In the case of Bournemouth, with three schools on a single airfield, these costs are unliklely to be excessive.
All colleges and universities carry out examinations on a regular basis. In many cases the invigilators are not full time staff, but simply invigilate exams on a part time basis. It is entirely possible that these people will be available at very little cost to supervise the CAA exams.
While there appears to be a logical argument for any new venue to be in the north, this idea requires further examination. The majority of students undertaking full time courses come from areas far removed from their schools. They therefore take up lodgings in the proximity of their school. This obviously adds to the overall cost of their training, but as their course progresses they at least become accustomed to their surroundings. These students then face further cost when taking up additional temporary accommodation close to the exam centres.
But for many, the greatest single problem is not the cost, but the the stress caused by the need to move to temporary lodgings. At a time when they are attempting to focus all of their energies on preparing for the exams they are forced to move into unfamiliar surroundings. This problem can best be overcome by having an examination centre within easy daily travel distance of each of the schools. In the case of Bournemouth with three schools in one location the case for an exam centre is particularly strong.
Students undertaking distance learning have the advantage that most of their study is done at home. They are however required to relocate temporarilly in order to carry out the residental element of their course. If such students were able to use an examination centre close to their school, the need for additional travel costs and stress would be minimsed.
The existing centres provide a reasonable solution for some of the schools. Gatwick for the LGU, Silsoe for the Cranfield/Coventry area, and Glasgow for Glasgow. One additional centre at Bournemouth could serve the three schools in the area, while a further centre in or around Bristol could serve BGS and Kemble.
The question of the capacity requirements of any new centre also needs to be examined. September was a particularly busy month for ATPL exams with a little over 150 students taking part. Even allowing for a surge capacity of 200, there is no conceivable reason why any new centre should require a capacity greater than 40 or 50. The figure of 70 previously suggested in this thread is far too high and is probably unachievable.
I suspect that they have three basic concerns:
a. To minimise venue rental costs.
b. To minimise additional staff costs.
c. To protect the security of the system.
The specification issued to the Bournemouth schools did not include any requirement that the venue be provided free of charge. Because I am particulary keen to see a centre established at Bournemouth I suggested that EPTA provide a room for free, and my boss agreed.
The CAA looked at my list of possible venues and discusssed availability with some of them. The main stumbling block was not the price, but the fact that none were available for September when the CAA wanted to conduct their trial. The only remaining venue was the EPTA classroom which was accepted by GTS, but rejected by BCFT.
If schools are sufficiently keen to have an exam centre in their area they need to consider the option of paying the additional staff costs. In the case of Bournemouth, with three schools on a single airfield, these costs are unliklely to be excessive.
All colleges and universities carry out examinations on a regular basis. In many cases the invigilators are not full time staff, but simply invigilate exams on a part time basis. It is entirely possible that these people will be available at very little cost to supervise the CAA exams.
While there appears to be a logical argument for any new venue to be in the north, this idea requires further examination. The majority of students undertaking full time courses come from areas far removed from their schools. They therefore take up lodgings in the proximity of their school. This obviously adds to the overall cost of their training, but as their course progresses they at least become accustomed to their surroundings. These students then face further cost when taking up additional temporary accommodation close to the exam centres.
But for many, the greatest single problem is not the cost, but the the stress caused by the need to move to temporary lodgings. At a time when they are attempting to focus all of their energies on preparing for the exams they are forced to move into unfamiliar surroundings. This problem can best be overcome by having an examination centre within easy daily travel distance of each of the schools. In the case of Bournemouth with three schools in one location the case for an exam centre is particularly strong.
Students undertaking distance learning have the advantage that most of their study is done at home. They are however required to relocate temporarilly in order to carry out the residental element of their course. If such students were able to use an examination centre close to their school, the need for additional travel costs and stress would be minimsed.
The existing centres provide a reasonable solution for some of the schools. Gatwick for the LGU, Silsoe for the Cranfield/Coventry area, and Glasgow for Glasgow. One additional centre at Bournemouth could serve the three schools in the area, while a further centre in or around Bristol could serve BGS and Kemble.
The question of the capacity requirements of any new centre also needs to be examined. September was a particularly busy month for ATPL exams with a little over 150 students taking part. Even allowing for a surge capacity of 200, there is no conceivable reason why any new centre should require a capacity greater than 40 or 50. The figure of 70 previously suggested in this thread is far too high and is probably unachievable.
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scroggs
Apologies, I wanted to keep the post short and to the point, but I see I really should point out the exact comment I was refering to. I did not say no-one lost money to SFT's demise as Keith stated. Having lost around £2,500 myself that is hardly likely. He seems to have made that up to make me sound inconsistent, rather an unfair tactic on his part.
Keith
I understand there was at least one other possible venue that did fit the criteria your classrooms did not and was very cheap. I don't know why the decision was made in the end, but you cannot blame it on BCFT. Talk to the CAA who take vast amounts from our students but don't always help them out. If anything, ask your marketing people why BCFT is so wary of EPTA. I'm not going to get into a debate about that here.
The location of exam centres has never been a major issue with students I have known, either when I was a student or since. There was an exam centre down here, but it has not been used in my time, always a minor gripe but not the issue you seem to make out of it. Our courses are set to give a few days of revision time at the end. Most students go home for this anyway, so travel is incidental. Living costs for 2 or 3 nights are not a huge part of £40 or £50,000 of training.
P.S. Yes 24 is the maximum in the class, although more are allowed with extra staff present. However the CAA approves the facilities to be used, and checks that the classroom size is adequate, agreeing (not sure how formally) how many students can be accomodated. Our main classrooms can hold 24.
Apologies, I wanted to keep the post short and to the point, but I see I really should point out the exact comment I was refering to. I did not say no-one lost money to SFT's demise as Keith stated. Having lost around £2,500 myself that is hardly likely. He seems to have made that up to make me sound inconsistent, rather an unfair tactic on his part.
Keith
I understand there was at least one other possible venue that did fit the criteria your classrooms did not and was very cheap. I don't know why the decision was made in the end, but you cannot blame it on BCFT. Talk to the CAA who take vast amounts from our students but don't always help them out. If anything, ask your marketing people why BCFT is so wary of EPTA. I'm not going to get into a debate about that here.
The location of exam centres has never been a major issue with students I have known, either when I was a student or since. There was an exam centre down here, but it has not been used in my time, always a minor gripe but not the issue you seem to make out of it. Our courses are set to give a few days of revision time at the end. Most students go home for this anyway, so travel is incidental. Living costs for 2 or 3 nights are not a huge part of £40 or £50,000 of training.
P.S. Yes 24 is the maximum in the class, although more are allowed with extra staff present. However the CAA approves the facilities to be used, and checks that the classroom size is adequate, agreeing (not sure how formally) how many students can be accomodated. Our main classrooms can hold 24.