Do you really Want to Do This...??
TightYorksherMan
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Exactly which half are you refering to?
When reading this I think you need to weigh up the facts - what do you hear - reading this thread it would easily put many people off! which could be the point of writing.
Hmmm......make up your own minds!
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It is not our intention to put people off, but it is our intention to make people think carefully about what it is they are trying to get into.
The fact is that just because an airliner is bigger and faster than a PA28 it does not make the flying experience better. Modern airliners are simply an expensive office that happens to be airborne; flying them is a management and monitoring task, not a manual skill. Like all areas of commerciality, the jobs of those involved in airlines are continually pressured by financial realities, and it is these things which detract from what you might imagine to be the 'pleasure' of flying at this level.
As jobs go, this is a good one. But the reality is quite a way from the hopes expressed by many wannabes, and many of you still don't understand that it's not the aeroplane that makes an employer worthwhile; it's the lifestyle the employer offers.
As for you, Jinkster, if you're trying to imply that Pprune Towers, WWW, and Scroggs are not experienced professional pilots, you are quite wrong. WWW's and my histories are available here on Pprune Wannabes if you search; PPrune Towers is one of the original founders of this site. I have no reason to believe that Deathcruzer isn't what he claims to be; the experiences he posts about are very recognisable to me, although my employer is somewhat more agreeable than his!
To all of you; read this topic thoroughly. It will arm you for the realities to come. If it does discourage you, then think carefully whether airline flying is the correct direction for you to follow. If you read this, understand it and still feel that airline flying is for you, good - we've done our job, and you won't be disillusioned when you finally get in your B737 or A320. You'll be able to enjoy the good bits while not being surprised by the tedious trivia - which, it must be said, afflict almost every profession.
Scroggs
The fact is that just because an airliner is bigger and faster than a PA28 it does not make the flying experience better. Modern airliners are simply an expensive office that happens to be airborne; flying them is a management and monitoring task, not a manual skill. Like all areas of commerciality, the jobs of those involved in airlines are continually pressured by financial realities, and it is these things which detract from what you might imagine to be the 'pleasure' of flying at this level.
As jobs go, this is a good one. But the reality is quite a way from the hopes expressed by many wannabes, and many of you still don't understand that it's not the aeroplane that makes an employer worthwhile; it's the lifestyle the employer offers.
As for you, Jinkster, if you're trying to imply that Pprune Towers, WWW, and Scroggs are not experienced professional pilots, you are quite wrong. WWW's and my histories are available here on Pprune Wannabes if you search; PPrune Towers is one of the original founders of this site. I have no reason to believe that Deathcruzer isn't what he claims to be; the experiences he posts about are very recognisable to me, although my employer is somewhat more agreeable than his!
To all of you; read this topic thoroughly. It will arm you for the realities to come. If it does discourage you, then think carefully whether airline flying is the correct direction for you to follow. If you read this, understand it and still feel that airline flying is for you, good - we've done our job, and you won't be disillusioned when you finally get in your B737 or A320. You'll be able to enjoy the good bits while not being surprised by the tedious trivia - which, it must be said, afflict almost every profession.
Scroggs
TightYorksherMan
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Scroggs, I didnt actually refer to anyone by name - I
was just stating the fact it would be easy to make things up.
Obviously there are genuine people around - such as yourself and others mentioned!
I was just writing a cautionary post! No harm taken - hopefully
Jinkster
was just stating the fact it would be easy to make things up.
Obviously there are genuine people around - such as yourself and others mentioned!
I was just writing a cautionary post! No harm taken - hopefully
Jinkster
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Jinx,
Next time you're chatting to your favourite Base Captain ask him or her for a totally honest opinion on the knowledge of wannabees regarding the realities of the job and their comments on the main forums. The ones along the lines of, 'I'll fly for free,' or 'so what if they've chopped your terms and conditions - there's a queue of us waiting to take your jobs so stop your moaning and get on with it.'
Come to think of it, why don't you all ask your wonderful airline contacts why they can't be arsed to come here and spend time with you?
Do you think paragraph one and paragraph two could in some way be connected??
I was a little suprised by the post from Jinks, registered a long time and a huge number of posts yet somehow we almost seem strangers to him. I realised then that a huge proportion of his time is spent on Jetblast. Have you noticed that it is another forum essentially ignored by the pro pilots?? The vast majority of its regulars and 'characters' seem to love being associated with professional aviation but have no actual connection with or genuine knowledge of it at all.
Without Scroggs, the Welshman and the additional occassional visitors thumping you with the truth this place would be the same cliquey, up it's own arse, fantasy world wallowing in its own spiral of misconceptions, half truths and wish fulfillment. On the FTO and Lasors side of things we're especially indebted to the concise, factual slaps in the faces from folks like BillieBob and a few others who will never let dodgy marketing or claims go unanswered. They are protecting your money - you have free will and can still go ahead but as I said the other day wannabees don't have the excuse of not knowing any more.
If a thread like this seems a bit of an unpleasant ice water shock you simply aren't getting around the site enough. Is there really anything in it that doesn't relect an average single day of comments on the Rumours and News or Terms and Endearments forums?? Here's one today from a well respected regular:
I'd suggest that if you want warm, fuzzy and fawning while shelling out tens of thousands of pounds go buy a rug at Harrods. We'll continue to tell it how it is.
Flying a jet is great but, as Scroggs brilliantly points out, which one is a hundred times less important than the company, it's attitude towards you, and the quality of life you get. Outstations versus main bases are probably the most important issues in short haul/low cost quality of life - never been mentioned here but absolutely vital. Also, I've don't ever remember any discussion of these forums regarding Sops. Your dream aircraft remains precisely that if your company insists on you having the autopilot permanently on while your mate flying a supposedly much less sexy beast is with a company that really lets you fly.
So, if you do meet airline people who've been flying for several years please ignore the obvious questions and ask them who and where the happiest pro pilots are that they know. That's groups of pilots not one cheerful individual. Knowledge like that is gold dust when you are targeting applications.
Thoughtfully yours.
Rob Lloyd
Next time you're chatting to your favourite Base Captain ask him or her for a totally honest opinion on the knowledge of wannabees regarding the realities of the job and their comments on the main forums. The ones along the lines of, 'I'll fly for free,' or 'so what if they've chopped your terms and conditions - there's a queue of us waiting to take your jobs so stop your moaning and get on with it.'
Come to think of it, why don't you all ask your wonderful airline contacts why they can't be arsed to come here and spend time with you?
Do you think paragraph one and paragraph two could in some way be connected??
I was a little suprised by the post from Jinks, registered a long time and a huge number of posts yet somehow we almost seem strangers to him. I realised then that a huge proportion of his time is spent on Jetblast. Have you noticed that it is another forum essentially ignored by the pro pilots?? The vast majority of its regulars and 'characters' seem to love being associated with professional aviation but have no actual connection with or genuine knowledge of it at all.
Without Scroggs, the Welshman and the additional occassional visitors thumping you with the truth this place would be the same cliquey, up it's own arse, fantasy world wallowing in its own spiral of misconceptions, half truths and wish fulfillment. On the FTO and Lasors side of things we're especially indebted to the concise, factual slaps in the faces from folks like BillieBob and a few others who will never let dodgy marketing or claims go unanswered. They are protecting your money - you have free will and can still go ahead but as I said the other day wannabees don't have the excuse of not knowing any more.
If a thread like this seems a bit of an unpleasant ice water shock you simply aren't getting around the site enough. Is there really anything in it that doesn't relect an average single day of comments on the Rumours and News or Terms and Endearments forums?? Here's one today from a well respected regular:
I wish all those who want to join BA well. It’s not the company it used to be though. The work is getting harder and harder, and a relatively sizeable proportion of your duty time is spent faffing about, not flying aeroplanes.
Against that background we have a management that is determined to destroy the professional status of flight crew, and treat you like fork lift operators. We are in all likelihood about to go through a bloody and acrimonious dispute on the lines of Cathay Pacific – The Empire Strikes Back.
By all means be enthusiastic to join the World’s favourite, but please come in with your eyes open. You’ll need to think about your own circumstances, and whether you can afford to make your own independent pension provision. There is a very real chance that BA pilots will be on a par with Aviva bus drivers by the time they’ve finished with us.
Against that background we have a management that is determined to destroy the professional status of flight crew, and treat you like fork lift operators. We are in all likelihood about to go through a bloody and acrimonious dispute on the lines of Cathay Pacific – The Empire Strikes Back.
By all means be enthusiastic to join the World’s favourite, but please come in with your eyes open. You’ll need to think about your own circumstances, and whether you can afford to make your own independent pension provision. There is a very real chance that BA pilots will be on a par with Aviva bus drivers by the time they’ve finished with us.
Flying a jet is great but, as Scroggs brilliantly points out, which one is a hundred times less important than the company, it's attitude towards you, and the quality of life you get. Outstations versus main bases are probably the most important issues in short haul/low cost quality of life - never been mentioned here but absolutely vital. Also, I've don't ever remember any discussion of these forums regarding Sops. Your dream aircraft remains precisely that if your company insists on you having the autopilot permanently on while your mate flying a supposedly much less sexy beast is with a company that really lets you fly.
So, if you do meet airline people who've been flying for several years please ignore the obvious questions and ask them who and where the happiest pro pilots are that they know. That's groups of pilots not one cheerful individual. Knowledge like that is gold dust when you are targeting applications.
Thoughtfully yours.
Rob Lloyd
TightYorksherMan
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Ah ok errm. Sorry got the wrong end of the stick - I am 21 and was just really a little 
off about reading 'is it all worth it' having spent a huge some of money but hey ho! 'cant take a joke shouldn't have joined'
off about reading 'is it all worth it' having spent a huge some of money but hey ho! 'cant take a joke shouldn't have joined'
Last edited by Jinkster; 30th Apr 2004 at 22:20.
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I got a call from a former colleague this morning. She used to fly Sheds at night carting freight every where too. She thought she'd got a really good job flying CRJ's. She and every one has been made redundant at that company Duo.. Her quote "it really is a ****ty industry isn't it?"
I hope I am wrong but unless you have 737/A319 time you have to go onto easyJet's TRSS programme at £23K. You might think, fair enough. However, when you have several thousand hours turboprop and the like or even CRJ/EMB time etc it is just plain rude to be treated as a raw newbie. Even the military guys have to do it. (If you want to work for easyJet. Ryanair are similar. bmi regional are charging for their EMB rating too. How long before the rest of them join with self sponsored ratings?)
I hope I am wrong but unless you have 737/A319 time you have to go onto easyJet's TRSS programme at £23K. You might think, fair enough. However, when you have several thousand hours turboprop and the like or even CRJ/EMB time etc it is just plain rude to be treated as a raw newbie. Even the military guys have to do it. (If you want to work for easyJet. Ryanair are similar. bmi regional are charging for their EMB rating too. How long before the rest of them join with self sponsored ratings?)
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I´m one of those at the World´s Favourite, sitting on the -400, which IMHO is the only place to be in Big. Bearing in mind I´ve ticked the box and "scratched my aviation itch", if I was made redundant or lost my licence tomorrow, I wouldn´t waste my time searching for another flying job, but would get straight back to Uni and do a 1 yr MBA course and join my stinking rich mates doing interesting stuff in the City. The way I see it , only a senior pilot in Big on L/H or a similarly placed guy in Virgin probably has the kind of lifestyle a 15yr + professional in the U.K can expect .
I will say. Just over 3 years in now - the novelty has worn off. You damn well earn your money, and then some.
The unsocial hours, the pressure, the niff naff and paperwork, the rude - my god you wouldn't believe the rudeness - passengers, the boring bits, the crap food/air/seat/radiation/hotel, the incompetence of management (how to ground a fleet in one easy step
).
Total pain in the £rse.
Not commuting in the rush hour, the direct responsibility, the broad picture, the grateful interested passengers, the fun bits, the banter/view/hotel bar, the pleasure of working with professionals.
Fantastic.
Swings and roundabouts.
It strikes me that these days nobody has a good word to say about their profession/working life.
The job of airline pilots has certainly gone way down in the last 20yrs. But then I think everybody says they same in comparable jobs.
I think an awful lot of airline pilots would prefer to be running their own company, doing something in the City for a ton of cash or just check out of stressville and run the best Lobster bar on the beach.
I suspect this may be because to become an airline pilot you generally have to have set, at some time, some pretty lofty goals for yourself. You therefore define yourself as being ambitious, confident of success and hard working.
This being the case the - own company/City/Lobster bar - were all actually attainable options if only we'd picked them. Hence Pilots tend to have slightly lower expressed satisfaction levels than other professions (they've been moaning about declining conditions since the Spitfires were retired, dammit!).
Don't be afraid to go for it. The jobs are there over the coming decades. They can never take the view away and at the end of the day - unionisation will always mean that we will earn a livable wage if nothing more.
Cheers
WWW
ps People seeking to invest or operate the Wakiki Beach Lobster Shack Corporation should send details to Weasley Towers,...
The unsocial hours, the pressure, the niff naff and paperwork, the rude - my god you wouldn't believe the rudeness - passengers, the boring bits, the crap food/air/seat/radiation/hotel, the incompetence of management (how to ground a fleet in one easy step
).Total pain in the £rse.
Not commuting in the rush hour, the direct responsibility, the broad picture, the grateful interested passengers, the fun bits, the banter/view/hotel bar, the pleasure of working with professionals.
Fantastic.
Swings and roundabouts.
It strikes me that these days nobody has a good word to say about their profession/working life.
The job of airline pilots has certainly gone way down in the last 20yrs. But then I think everybody says they same in comparable jobs.
I think an awful lot of airline pilots would prefer to be running their own company, doing something in the City for a ton of cash or just check out of stressville and run the best Lobster bar on the beach.
I suspect this may be because to become an airline pilot you generally have to have set, at some time, some pretty lofty goals for yourself. You therefore define yourself as being ambitious, confident of success and hard working.
This being the case the - own company/City/Lobster bar - were all actually attainable options if only we'd picked them. Hence Pilots tend to have slightly lower expressed satisfaction levels than other professions (they've been moaning about declining conditions since the Spitfires were retired, dammit!).
Don't be afraid to go for it. The jobs are there over the coming decades. They can never take the view away and at the end of the day - unionisation will always mean that we will earn a livable wage if nothing more.
Cheers
WWW
ps People seeking to invest or operate the Wakiki Beach Lobster Shack Corporation should send details to Weasley Towers,...
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doing something in the City for a ton of cash or just check out of stressville and run the best Lobster bar on the beach.
Looking at PPJN, from Jet S/O to Captain, chances are you will be earning stacks more than any other job that could realistically expect to get with comparable experience.
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I do really enjoy what I do and I still have enough enthusiasm left over to instruct during the weekends which I normally have off!
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I would not say the company is fantastic... there probably isn't one that is! However most weekends are off since we don't do much flying during Saturday and Sunday.
Expect to work many weekends.
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Got to agree with you there High Wing Drifter. Thats a reason why the unsociable hours aspect of the job actually appeals to me, though equally I know there are disadvantages to the unsociable hours.
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Sticky or not??
One for the mods to think about and pull the old PPRuNe balancing act we pay them so much for
AGAINST: All mods have guidance from on high requesting minimal use of stickies to maintain readability and flow to the forum.
FOR: The need to have the downside available for a constant wave of people arriving here for the first time. A counter if you like to the marketing and enthusiasm that abounds in flight training while the experience of those actually doing the job for real is never aired other that here on PPRuNe. Prime example: the 'pilots' wheeled out to talk at schools and conferences are not really line pilots anymore otherwise they simply wouldn't be there to talk to you. There was something about flying the line that didn't satisfy them and they have sought positions such as in recruitment that actually get them out of an aeroplane for significant periods.
This may come as a terrible shock to some of you but airline pilots don't wake up one morning and find that rather than the 0600 flight on our roster we have to go and talk to wannabees and students. These people don't do 0600's anymore. Their career advancement now lies entirely outside flying a turbo prop or jet and therefore have an entirely different outlook and agenda to the one you assume.
Next. Flight training and airines are entirely different and unconnected industries. In theory if one hurts the other should in pretty short order. This hasn't happened as many of you qualified and patiently waiting have found.
I think that this thread would just have to be perpetually repeated like the "Am I too old," ones cropping up ad nauseam. For the first time in living memory the there has been a severe aviation downturn without the rest of the economy heading south other than in a few specialised areas like IT.
The flow of wannabees never stopped, in fact it's actually been a torrent because of the rest of the economic factors. Lowest interest rates in 50 years so money is cheap, house prices on another planet meaning you or your parents have undreamt of equity to borrow off. A finance sector fighting to win the award for most debt sold to the public - you can fill in the rest of the picture yourself.
We've turned into Australia and New Zealand practically overnight. Massive oversupply of fresh pilots to keep the schools running very nicely thank you. Massive debt incurred but no GA to go to other than instructing and further adding to the desperate cycle - finding more fresh meat. Meanwhile the mantra of shareholder value has produced an airline business ethos where personal advancement is dependent on cutting every possible aspect of pilots terms and conditions. Professional pilots simply cannot believe you considering paying above and beyond what you've already expended on licences to join them.
This thread won't ever stop anyone who can't bear the thought of life without flying. It will however make you consider, at least for a while, what you're letting yourself in for. Go to Rotorheads and have a look at this month's calendar to see someone whose aviating, fixed wing as much as helo, leaves us pro's gasping with envy. It's something folks who are bright and determined must think about.
Many reading this thread will have been instinctively offended by any criticism of the perfection of flight as a career but using this forum alone is something no pilots could recommend. Read elsewhere on this site. With an enlarged EU and even the Ryanair law of omerta getting very shaky there are other ways of gaining significant flying experience and enjoyment. Avoiding the queues at Ikea over the weekend just isn't a good enough reason for going into 50 grand's worth of debt.
AGAINST: All mods have guidance from on high requesting minimal use of stickies to maintain readability and flow to the forum.
FOR: The need to have the downside available for a constant wave of people arriving here for the first time. A counter if you like to the marketing and enthusiasm that abounds in flight training while the experience of those actually doing the job for real is never aired other that here on PPRuNe. Prime example: the 'pilots' wheeled out to talk at schools and conferences are not really line pilots anymore otherwise they simply wouldn't be there to talk to you. There was something about flying the line that didn't satisfy them and they have sought positions such as in recruitment that actually get them out of an aeroplane for significant periods.
This may come as a terrible shock to some of you but airline pilots don't wake up one morning and find that rather than the 0600 flight on our roster we have to go and talk to wannabees and students. These people don't do 0600's anymore. Their career advancement now lies entirely outside flying a turbo prop or jet and therefore have an entirely different outlook and agenda to the one you assume.
Next. Flight training and airines are entirely different and unconnected industries. In theory if one hurts the other should in pretty short order. This hasn't happened as many of you qualified and patiently waiting have found.
I think that this thread would just have to be perpetually repeated like the "Am I too old," ones cropping up ad nauseam. For the first time in living memory the there has been a severe aviation downturn without the rest of the economy heading south other than in a few specialised areas like IT.
The flow of wannabees never stopped, in fact it's actually been a torrent because of the rest of the economic factors. Lowest interest rates in 50 years so money is cheap, house prices on another planet meaning you or your parents have undreamt of equity to borrow off. A finance sector fighting to win the award for most debt sold to the public - you can fill in the rest of the picture yourself.
We've turned into Australia and New Zealand practically overnight. Massive oversupply of fresh pilots to keep the schools running very nicely thank you. Massive debt incurred but no GA to go to other than instructing and further adding to the desperate cycle - finding more fresh meat. Meanwhile the mantra of shareholder value has produced an airline business ethos where personal advancement is dependent on cutting every possible aspect of pilots terms and conditions. Professional pilots simply cannot believe you considering paying above and beyond what you've already expended on licences to join them.
This thread won't ever stop anyone who can't bear the thought of life without flying. It will however make you consider, at least for a while, what you're letting yourself in for. Go to Rotorheads and have a look at this month's calendar to see someone whose aviating, fixed wing as much as helo, leaves us pro's gasping with envy. It's something folks who are bright and determined must think about.
Many reading this thread will have been instinctively offended by any criticism of the perfection of flight as a career but using this forum alone is something no pilots could recommend. Read elsewhere on this site. With an enlarged EU and even the Ryanair law of omerta getting very shaky there are other ways of gaining significant flying experience and enjoyment. Avoiding the queues at Ikea over the weekend just isn't a good enough reason for going into 50 grand's worth of debt.
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I'll just third that. Not having your life structured around weekends has always been a selling point to me... in fact a lot of what many seem to perceive as the negatives are.
No doubt I'll eat my words following years of 6 sector days at 6 day stretches etc.
No doubt I'll eat my words following years of 6 sector days at 6 day stretches etc.