Do you really Want to Do This...??

[maxy101]

Slim20 Nice post....I respect anybody that can still be enthusiastic about the job after a full career....of course, it also depends on which company you work for, where you are based, dosh at the end of the month. Some people entering the industry now are not going to have the same T & C that some of us currently enjoy. At the end of the day, that is what pays for the life away from work.

[What to do?]

Afternoon all

I work for a large city law firm. I work 09:30 - 21:30. I'm earning £50,000. I'm 25, and if my job gets anymore boring there's a distinct possibility that I'm going to fall into a coma.

Whilst I accept that your job certainly isn't 'Catch me if you can', I think you have perhaps lost touch with reality. The job security might not be as good as it used to be, but you guys get paid pretty well, and thets be honest the hours are pretty good. What do you think happens to us if we don't bill the correct number of hours or there's a partner budget cut?

You might be away from home, but I sometimes work all weekend and might work all night. Eventually I might earn £150,000 - £200,000, but hour for hour captains are earning more. You guys can choose where to work within reason. I'm chained to the city of London (£££).

I'll admit that the training costs are most certainly a ball ache, and combined with job security it is a worry. However the from where I'm sitting at 19:30 with s**t loads of work to complete, the grass not only looks greener, it looks like the Garden of Eden on a very sunny day. Then there's the view, word versus a constantly changing high altitude environment.

I'm not saying you don't have things to whine about, but I do think you need to realise that perhaps things really can be worse. Why did I do it? I made a mistake. I wonder how many pilots get to 25 and think the same? My hunch is not many.

Kind regards

A bored lawyer @ 19:50

[silentwitness]

A bored lawyer who can't tell the time, your post says 8:02

[RowleyUK]

Yet another day goes by, once again i have not flown!

Do i still want to do this? Yes

Will the weather allow me to finish my course? God only knows!



Rowley @ 21:05Z .




ps. hey look at that....the clock actually is fast......110 posts and never noticed!

[carbonfibre]

Flying for a living

I agree with Slim 20

If like me youd give your right arm to fly for a living , you would already know the answer, Hell Yeah ! you want to fly.

I have to say that these pressures are in day to day workings within all industries apart from the weather considerations, commercial pressures are in every position.

Besides a choice of getting my A**e kicked by my MD or the accountant or flying an ILS into an airport a few times a day, good or bad weather , ill take that.

For me too, its not the money, its the flying, because i know i wont get the money i earn now flying.

well good luck to all and enjoy the flying

[maxy101]

I would imagine that lots of pilots wouldn't mind swapping their present seat for a desk and the potential of earning 150-200K a year . A school mate of mine made partner in a "Golden Circle" firm a couple of years ago earning >250k a year whilst I am still waiting for a seat change. Alas, working for Big there is very little chance I will get to earn half that. Now, I know we don't do this job for the money, however, the long days in the office are respected and rewarded by your management/partners, and I doubt you have a fraction of the "******ation" factor that we go through daily passing through the building sites we call airports in the UK. 12 hour days are common in the airlines nowadays. The good old days of a couple of sectors in the morning and being home by lunch are long gone. I have no doubt that you are treated as an asset rather than a highly paid liability. Trust me, If I had my time again, I would swap places tomorrow, and enjoy my flying from the luxury of a First class seat.

[Snigs]

Oh come on, I don't think the comparison is valid

With no disrespect to professional pilots all over the world but any Tom, Dick or Harry can pass the professional pilot exams (you're even given the answers to memorise!!! ) and hence become a professional pilot..... it takes a lot more nous to work yourself up to being a partner in a city firm.

I guess that only a top few percent of pilots could do that.

Besides, even FO for a "Big" will pay way more than the national average, why be greedy!

[maxy101]

Snigs It wasn´t meant as a comparison, merely an observation. Besides, virtually all of my peers have a decent degree and I´m sure the "nous" to climb the corporate ladder if they wanted.The point I am trying to make is that the sort of person that is in the top few percent of the population/IQ/educational system ( however you want to measure or define it) would be better off taking their valuable skills to virtually any business except the airline business. Unless you want to be a non -executive director in Big, that is. It also amazes me that the most highly qualified people in the airline are flying the aeroplanes instead of running the company. I think a lot of people would be shocked at the lack of qualifications and experience of some of our very senior mangers at Big. It would appear that a bit of brown-nosing goes a long way...

[Maximum]

These threads always get my blood pressure up and I know I shoudn't let them, but the sweeping generalisations with which some of you disregard the views of us actually doing the ****ing job beggars belief!!

Snigs, you say,

With no disrespect to professional pilots all over the world but any Tom, Dick or Harry can pass the professional pilot exams (you're even given the answers to memorise!!! ) and hence become a professional pilot....

what an absolutely gross insult and totally crass misunderstanding of the truth. And it's no use prefacing your jaundiced statement with "with no disrespect" because it's utterly disrespectful!! You are conveniently forgetting that airline pilots come from all backgrounds in flying. You are conveniently forgetting that all you're talking about is the groundschool, and even then you're not presenting a fair picture. You're conveniently forgetting about type ratings. Instrument ratings. Experience. Command ability, etc, etc etc......I'm sorry to make it personal, but you've made me angry, and you're talking through your a**e. So any Tom, Dick or Harry can become a professional pilot, and by inference in your post, secure an airline job and climb up the career ladder to command? With the myriad of pitfalls along the way..... Well of course they can (sarcasm).

Thanks for the gross insult to a profession I am very proud to be a part of. Thanks for dismissing my achievements in decades of professional flying, the blood, sweat and tears that I've put into this seemingly thankless and now by your reckoning pretty worthless occupation. Yea, thanks a whole bunch buddy. 'Cos now you've put me right, ANY TOM, DICK OR HARRY COULD HAVE DONE IT!!!!!

carbonfibre, you say,

Besides a choice of getting my A**e kicked by my MD or the accountant or flying an ILS into an airport a few times a day, good or bad weather , ill take that.

your ignorance/arrogance is breathtaking! Do you really think that's all there is to it?? Or are you too conveniently making a totally unbalanced comparison?? "Just flying an ILS into an airport a few times a day" - what a completely moronic view of airline flying. And I love the way you talk about bad weather as if it's not real and can't actually hurt you. It can be frightening and KILL YOU! And not frightening in an exciting adrenelin rush kind of a way, just plain pant wetting, dry mouth, sphincter puckering, palm sweating, knuckle whitening scary. Scary so that you just want to be on the ground scary. Oh, but hold on, what am I talking about? I forgot - it's just about flying an ILS into an airport a couple of times a day.............

What to do?, you say,

The job security might not be as good as it used to be, but you guys get paid pretty well, and thets be honest the hours are pretty good

and

Eventually I might earn £150,000 - £200,000, but hour for hour captains are earning more

Again, your ignorance of the realities of the job is astounding! Pilots are being worked literally to death in the UK at the moment. Of course there are exceptions, but if you look at the short haul area especially, it is basically fly, eat, fall asleep and start all over again. And having done both myself, I can assure you that twelve hours in the cockpit is a hell of a lot more tiring than twelve hours in the office. You're conveniently ignoring the cramped conditions, the locked door, the sparse and sh**e food. Dehydration. Vibration. Noise. Smells. ATC. Hot/cold, light/dark. FATIGUE. And sharing all this with someone probably of a totally different generation, with a different view on life, whom you might not even like. As for your pay comparison, it's just rubbish. Plain and simple.

If I seem irritable it's because there are so many misconceptions regarding this job amongst the general public at large that I can't believe it when you guys who should be more knowledgeable make exactly the same assumptions.

By the way, if you're ever up for an airline interview, I think you should do a bit more research on what the job's actually like, or you're going to provoke a very similar reaction to mine from the interviewer. And then you'll still be flying that desk......

[PPRuNe Towers]

Thanks Maximum,

Sincerely thanks. Yet again wannabees blow out the pros visiting this forum with their breathtaking arrogance and naivete. We do receive word privately from those with a working licence that with the attitudes displayed here wannabees deserve every rip off going. It appears experienced alpha types loathe inexperienced alpha types because it reminds them what a pain in the arse they used to be. It makes life very difficult for us especially when wannabees, as a group, come over as being self centred and immature.

Outraged???? Answer this - how many relieved, licenced and working wannabees have paid anything back to this site by writing, simply writing more than a paragraph about interviews, testing, line training and flying the line. Who has ever come back and told you what it is really like 3 years or more down the line? I'll give you a clue the percentage begins with a zero, then a decimal point and then several more zeros before we get a number.

Therefore the brutal point has to be made that even last year's crop of wannabees can't stick you. How do I know this? Because the vast majority can't be arsed writing about it, any of it for you. Take the hint - wind your bloody necks in about the job till you've done it. Shut your mouths about how good the pay is until you are 24 months into life with CAP 371. Button your lips, epecially elswhere on the site, about how little you'd work for.

There is a world of a difference between enthusiastic and embarrassing

The test to the truth of that? Would you dare come out with any of this bollocks to experienced pilots who might put in a word for you? Not the interviewers - just someone who might hand in a CV for you. It is the same guys who we need to help you here and you clear them out on a weekly basis with your attititudes.


Finally, one point the working guys haven't touched on yet is every single working day of your life you will be treated at least once like suspect bombers and be searched by brian dead jobsworths who know, who absolutely know that we don't need to carry a thing to destroy our airliner and all on board.

Rob Lloyd

PS Puzzled or dismayed at the tenor of the posts here from the working pofessional pilots? Ask yourself this: where are the posts from those with 3 years or more of experience telling you it is wonderful and they way they'd hoped it would be? There are those of you who will sweep hangars, drive a van - in fact do anything to fly. There are others who can't think of anything better to do, it sounds good and have never done any sort of licence or work towards a licence. This thread is for them.

This weekend we celebrate the move to a new server and many changes - some to these forums. To reinforce the strength of our belief that many of you would be far better off working in the city or other professions we're making aviation experience, perseverence and application the cornerstone of all future sponsorship from the PPRuNe fund.

PPS - Sorry Reddo - my mistake. Do the jobsworths know you go feral at at times???

[b]PPRuNe speaks fluent aviation - bluntly and doesn't take any money from wannabees.[b/]

[redsnail]

Maximum,
Well said. Not every one who's passed the exams will get a crack at the shiny jets.... In fact, just because you've passed the exams doesn't mean you'll pass the flying component.

Rob,
Regarding the security threat, I did mention it.

When you go to work you are treated as a potential threat every time you sign on. ie scanned, bags x-rayed, security checks that go back even further these days

Look guys, it is a good job. However, it isn't the job that you guys think it is. It used to be, but it certainly isn't now.
Why do so many of you tell us we're wrong?
In Australia, approx 1% of all the people who start a PPL with the view of going commercial will ever fly a jet. 1%!!! Slightly different market in the UK but you'll get some idea of the stats.

[scroggs]

Actually, Reddo, my guess is that the success rate in UK is probably even less than your quoted 1% - but it's diffcult to know how serious people are when they say they want to fly for a living before they've started the process of training, so it's difficult to put a realistic number on the dropouts. Whatever the numbers, it's a very high proportion!

Peeps, there aren't very many Wannabe contributors who've gone from pre-fATPL to an airliner flight deck in the last couple of years; as you know, it's been a difficult time. Reddo and Pilot Pete are two of those few, and they're kind enough to share their experiences with you. There are some others of us far longer on the tooth who feel that it's worth sharing our perceptions of the industry, and how it's changed, with you in the hope that you will learn from what we say. Some of what we say is opinion, and is therefore arguable. Most of what we say is fact, and should be believed - although we may not put it as clearly as you'd like on occasion.

As Maximum and Pprune Towers have told you, this is a bloody hard job much of the time. In many so-called respectable airlines, the working conditions are pretty Victorian - and commercial pressures are continually adding to the pilots' burden while often effectively reducing the rewards. The opportunities for losing your entire career are frequent and intimidating, and the pressures on your domestic life are as destructive as any career I can think of. This job is not a licence to print money or to have an easy life, for the vast majority of airline pilots.

I'm one of the lucky few who enjoy what I do enormously, and I work for an airline with a fairly enlightened view (under BALPA pressure....!) of what working conditions should be - yet I'm sat in China now, unable to sleep (it's 4 am here), writing stuff on Pprune. I've been here 3 days and had maybe 8 hours real rest in that time because the time change, added to the overnight flight here, is pretty devastating. I have to operate home - a 12 hour flight - in 7 hours' time..... And then I've got to drive round the M25! I'll sleep all of Monday and most of Tuesday. I'll have Wednesday to sort the washing, claen the house, see my kids, pay my bills, see friends, arrange a car service, do the garden, fix a leak in the bathroom, go to the gym, do some essential shopping, and a few other jobs (takes breath...), before I drive the M25 to Heathrow to do the whole thing over again. For 5 days away with 8 hours bloody sleep again! And I enjoy this? I must be certifiable....

On top of that, I don't yet know what I'm doing in April, let alone later in the year. I cannot commit to any family or other social occasions - ever. I can't plan do get involved in any sporting events, or help out the local amdram society, or charity, or school. My friends (I still have some) have given up trying to invite me to things, 'cos I never turn up. I even nearly missed my own mother's funeral! In this job, you are opting out of normal society. At 48, I'm not senior enough to get leave during school holidays - and I may never be so while my kids are at school. I'm lucky in that at least I get a social life down route. Ask an EZ or Ryan pilot when he/she gets to socialise, and the answer will be pretty much 'never'.

This job is not easy, and there are very real disadvantages. Take all that into account and ditch the rose-tinted specs before you are too committed to change your minds. If you're not absolutely certain that this is what you want to do, having learned all that we are telling you, then go elsewhere and have a nice life.

Scroggs

[Andy_R]

Scroggs Maximum Pprune Towers

Thank you for your words of wisdom.

I agree there are a lot of wannabees with rose-tinted views on life, but there are many others (who usually do as you advise and shut up about stuff they don't know about) who just absorb and digest the information on these pages and are able to make far more informed choices with the help of your opinions.

So don't give up on us all - many of us do listen and learn, and value the pearls of wisdom available from these pages.

Thanks for the time you guys and girls put into all this.

[Screwballs]

Can I just say that I agree with Cloud69 and thanks to PPRUNE and the professional pilots here who put up with their careers and wannabes like me who have no-end of silly questions.

Screwballs - eyes wide open

[G SXTY]

This is the most useful thread I have seen in a long, long time.

I would like to think there are at least a few commercial pilots with more than a couple of years experience who'd encourage people to join the industry, but on the evidence here, they are extremely thin on the ground.

Food for thought.

[hifive11]

Cloud 69 and Screwballs

I second what both of you have said and it is/has been a very informative thread.

[wint3rmute]

It's sad that for some of you this hasn't been the career you hoped it would be and of course it's a good that the realities should be passed down to "wannabes" who may be similarly naive.

However, i'd like to reassure that many alternative careers have equal if not worse drawbacks. I think a lawyer's already spoken but as a doctor i can tell you that if you feel hard-done-by as a pilot then that's nothing compared to being at the hands of the NHS!

We regularly have to work shifts of 5pm to 10am, for example, for 7 days only to be owed a rest at the end which is denied as we have to start a new job in a new environment on a simliar week of nights. (is this turning into a Monty Python sketch!?) I hope that puts your 6 days of 12hr sectors into perspective slightly. Also, i don't know what i'm doing tomorrow, let alone next week so i can never categorically accept an invitation or make any firm plans.

I can see the worry with biennual simulator checks and the medical but most of us have to apply for new jobs every 6 months. So, you're 2 months into a job and already its time to fill in countless application forms and hopefully swat up for interviews. Also the whole career is a series of pretty tough (e.g. limit to 30% of applicants passing) exams that must be taken if you want to progress at all.

Pay: I'm on the highest london pay band and am payed about 2/3 the amount that pilots i know at a similar stage in their career get.

You think working in a cockpit is bad... you should try an A&E department on the edge of a london council estate. Alcoholics with bottle wounds tend to not be very grateful or respectful.

I haven't even mentioned management (best not get me started) or the general public but... My point is that we all have difficulties in our jobs that we have to deal with and if what you enjoy about the work outweighs this then great... go for it. Just don't be despondant if everything isn't exactly as you imagined it, nothing ever is.

And if you don't like it.. find something else to do, whether it's plumber/teacher/gardener/whatever and free the job for someone who really wants to do it. I'm sure most jobs are easier to break into than the one you feel trapped in at the moment.

I'm not knocking the professionals who have shared their experiences, by default the thread required you to whinge! As i said there maybe those who are going into this career without realising these details and its possible someone reading this thread will be rightfully swayed away from professional aviation. I know a lot of doctors would have been helped if they were aware of the realities sooner. I just thought it should be said that you may be viewing alternative careers with rose-tinted specs.

As someone not directly connected with aviation i realise that some of my views may be not that well informed. However, i think can offer an objective stance.

[Maximum]

.........oh dear, it's truly amazing isn't it.

Just when you think the penny has dropped.

wint3rmute, you've started the whole cycle off again.

Look, this isn't about comparing who's got the worst job and the most awful working conditions. Frankly, I couldn't give a dam.

But you've made the points, and I just can't let them go unanswered. So here we go again.

It's sad that for some of you this hasn't been the career you hoped it would be

patronising I'm afraid. How do you know what we hoped for? All we're trying to do is point out fact from fiction.

if you feel hard-done-by as a pilot then that's nothing compared to being at the hands of the NHS!

well how would you know? Are you a professional pilot? The comparison is pointless.

I hope that puts your 6 days of 12hr sectors into perspective slightly

patronising and ill informed again I'm afraid. Like so many, you're conveniently ignoring the unique nature of our work environment. You also fail to take into account the extra hours of work we accumulate pre and post flight and the time we spend away from home. I also suspect that you can choose to move to better working conditions as your experience and skill grows. An airline pilot doesn't have the opportunity to progress up a career ladder that can potentially bring the big rewards that medicine can.

Pay: I'm on the highest london pay band and am payed about 2/3 the amount that pilots i know at a similar stage in their career get

another silly comparison. I'm sure you're on a darn sight more than a flying instructor. Or are you paying the NHS to let you work?

You think working in a cockpit is bad... you should try an A&E department on the edge of a london council estate. Alcoholics with bottle wounds tend to not be very grateful or respectful

yet another ridiculous comparison. Do you know what working in a cockpit is like then? And I might remind you of 9/11 and the present security threats, as well as all the normal ones we face every time we get airborne.

Just don't be despondant if everything isn't exactly as you imagined it, nothing ever is

thanks for that piercing insight into the human condition.

And then this really takes the biscuit

And if you don't like it.. find something else to do, whether it's plumber/teacher/gardener/whatever and free the job for someone who really wants to do it

you do realise we are experienced career professionals who've "served our time" as it were don't you? Don't you? And you're seriously suggesting that we don't "really want to do it". Has it occured to you that the rules have changed, the job has changed and that we're simply trying to stop the erosion of our terms and conditions even further? And what about mortgages, family commitments etc etc etc - where do those fit in to your glorious suggestion?

I just thought it should be said that you may be viewing alternative careers with rose-tinted specs

you make the assumption that we haven't experienced alternative careers.

Look, I'm sure you're a thoroughly nice chap and all that, and it's gratifying that you took the trouble to post at all. But, you must realise this is a very emotive subject for those of us who actually know what the job is like. Unless you've sat in that flight deck as a professional pilot you just can't understand. The image and reality are poles apart.

That's why I reserve the right to jump down anyone's throat if I think they're helping to perpetuate these myths.

[PPRuNe Towers]

wint3rmute

Good thoughtful stuff but if you're new here just some background:

I don't know why but born and bred airline pilots have proved incapable of running a successful website. Danny, me, Scroggs all had long careers before going anywhere near Airliners. Amongst other things Danny was an Israeli soldier, while I did 13 years at the pointy end of life in Toxteth. Scroggs has 20 years of military flying under his belt. We don't spout as aviation dilletantes bored or trapped with our chosen path. We fought, kicked and clawed our way onto the flightdeck at ages where we shouldn't have had a chance.

We did it approaching or actually in our forties with families and mortgages. We suceeded, we prospered and this site is our way of putting something back.

There's nothing in it for us to tell wannabees the realities of the job. We get nothing out of it. It costs us money of our own to run the site. Other than us every single person a wannabee has contact with is either trying to sell them something or justify their own expensive decisions.

You are most unusual in knowing any working airline pilots - the majority of wannabees have no contact at all with anyone in the business. We're here to be brutally honest friends - the only ones who will tell, what is to some, the unpleasant truth. It needs to be told because it is not in the financial interest of any club, training organisation or even trade union to tell the truth.

Those who live, breath and sleep aviation will find their way to the flight deck. We are just making sure that our readers know that there are much more pleasant ways of flying and earning a good living.

Tens of thousands of pounds are spent selling the dream to wannabees. We are the only, I repeat only counterbalance. You, of all people, must share our loathing of spin and marketing and the 'work' of non active, never been on the front line, drones and careerists who utterly depend on fresh, eager new faces coming through the system.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd

[Maximum]

Rob, you put it much better than me!

wint3rmute, apologies if I've come across like a heavy handed j**k, but this whole area does tend to get my back up just a little as you might have noticed. Nothing personal intended.

Welcome!