Do you really Want to Do This...??
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Ah.. duly noted all.
No probs maximum, i can see this is an emotive issue for you all and can understand how someone with no experience spouting their opinion would annoy. That's why i said: " As someone not directly connected with aviation i realise that some of my views may be not that well informed". A lazy disclaimer maybe!
No probs maximum, i can see this is an emotive issue for you all and can understand how someone with no experience spouting their opinion would annoy. That's why i said: " As someone not directly connected with aviation i realise that some of my views may be not that well informed". A lazy disclaimer maybe!
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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I may well attempt a reasoned response to the posts on here, but at the moment I'm tempted to say "I quit"
Rob,
Just like many of the people who post here Rob. Most do know what goes on, and are willing to take the chance.
I ask the question, why do I work 45 hours Mon-Fri designing the stuff that professional pilots take for granted, and then put in all day Sat and Sun as a flying instructor. So I don't even have time to
Maximum, you see what you see....
Not at all.
That's all that's needed (oh and a glorified PPL skills test) to be a licensed commercial pilot......
I'm not forgetting those. But your arrogance has made me angry, you sound so superior. If you're the person that I might spend a few hours sitting next on the flight deck then, I'm sorry, but I don't want to.
Yes they can, and you know some too, I'll bet.
. Why sarcasm.
Give me some respect, you may be surprised.... I might deserve some!
Rob,
We did it approaching or actually in our forties with families and mortgages. We suceeded, we prospered and this site is our way of putting something back.
I ask the question, why do I work 45 hours Mon-Fri designing the stuff that professional pilots take for granted, and then put in all day Sat and Sun as a flying instructor. So I don't even have time to
sort the washing, clean the house, see my kid, pay my bills, see friends, arrange a car service, do the garden, fix a leak in the bathroom, go to the gym, do some essential shopping, and a few other jobs (takes breath...)
it's no use prefacing your jaundiced statement with "with no disrespect" because it's utterly disrespectful!!
You are conveniently forgetting that airline pilots come from all backgrounds in flying. You are conveniently forgetting that all you're talking about is the groundschool,
and even then you're not presenting a fair picture. You're conveniently forgetting about type ratings. Instrument ratings. Experience. Command ability, etc, etc etc......I'm sorry to make it personal, but you've made me angry, and you're talking through your a**e.
So any Tom, Dick or Harry can become a professional pilot, and by inference in your post, secure an airline job and climb up the career ladder to command?
With the myriad of pitfalls along the way..... Well of course they can (sarcasm)
Give me some respect, you may be surprised.... I might deserve some!
Last edited by Snigs; 15th Mar 2004 at 08:38.
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Snigs, I think anyone reading your last post with even half a brain will be dumbfounded considering all that's been said...............
you astound me.
what makes you think you've earned any respect when you continue to make light of my profession?
Very interesting....................
you astound me.
That's all that's needed (oh and a glorified PPL skills test) to be a licensed commercial pilot......
If you're the person that I might spend a few hours sitting next on the flight deck then, I'm sorry, but I don't want to
Give me some respect, you may be surprised.... I might deserve some!
Very interesting....................
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Ok, I’ve just re-read everything that’s been written, and I’m about to wind my neck in, but not before I try to explain. 
Firstly, maxy101, I couldn’t agree more, the Dilbert concept (i.e. promote the incompetent) is rife in many other industries too.
Maximum, I’m not going to get into a slanging match with you, last night’s post was a little influenced by a nice Rioja, and perhaps wasn’t well thought out nor well put.
I think I need to address my “Tom Dick and Harry” comment. I hope I can illiterate this without digging myself further into my hole….. What I was meaning by this is that once the professional exams and the CPL skills test are passed then you can call yourself a professional pilot. It’s a bit like an electrician calling himself an electrical engineer but not having any engineering qualifications, i.e. a little misleading. What I failed to make clear was that I am fully aware that a shiny new license is only a license to learn, I agree that there is so much more to being in command of a pax carrying commercial flight. But I’m sure that you’ll agree that there are a few “professional” pilots out there who are “unemployable” (and after this contribution I’m probably perceived as one of them, if I wasn’t before!
) and this is where I was coming from with T D & H.
I am really sorry that you have seen my posting as an insult to your profession and to you personally. It was never meant to be. It seems that I’ve upset a few people with some ill judged comments, once again I’m sorry.
I retract this, it was written a fit of wine fuelled pique.
What I was originally trying to put across is that there is always a different perception of professions from those on the outside to those in the know. People think that my current job is glamorous, working all around Europe etc, but only I know the truth.
I know that this is exactly what you’re trying to do for the Wannabes, tell them the truth, which is great, but I suggest that a lot of Wannabes know the pitfalls, and still possess the desire to fly for a living and still “chase the dream” with eyes wide open. My point being that the grass is no greener in any other profession. it’s just that I perceive that what you do for a living is slightly less ****ty than what I’m doing at the moment.
I have a license to learn, and I have done and continue to do so, I have been a PPRuNer as long as you so I have read threads similar to this before, and I have found them invaluable because they have shaped my perception of what it is like in the real world. I also know, as well as anyone can who’s on the outside, how things have changed, I have PPRuNe to thank for that too.
I know I'm green, but a shade less dazzling than some. I shall bow out now, having learnt a valuable lesson, booze and PPRuNe don’t mix.
Firstly, maxy101, I couldn’t agree more, the Dilbert concept (i.e. promote the incompetent) is rife in many other industries too.
Maximum, I’m not going to get into a slanging match with you, last night’s post was a little influenced by a nice Rioja, and perhaps wasn’t well thought out nor well put.
I think I need to address my “Tom Dick and Harry” comment. I hope I can illiterate this without digging myself further into my hole….. What I was meaning by this is that once the professional exams and the CPL skills test are passed then you can call yourself a professional pilot. It’s a bit like an electrician calling himself an electrical engineer but not having any engineering qualifications, i.e. a little misleading. What I failed to make clear was that I am fully aware that a shiny new license is only a license to learn, I agree that there is so much more to being in command of a pax carrying commercial flight. But I’m sure that you’ll agree that there are a few “professional” pilots out there who are “unemployable” (and after this contribution I’m probably perceived as one of them, if I wasn’t before!
) and this is where I was coming from with T D & H.I am really sorry that you have seen my posting as an insult to your profession and to you personally. It was never meant to be. It seems that I’ve upset a few people with some ill judged comments, once again I’m sorry.
If you're the person that I might spend a few hours sitting next on the flight deck then, I'm sorry, but I don't want to
What I was originally trying to put across is that there is always a different perception of professions from those on the outside to those in the know. People think that my current job is glamorous, working all around Europe etc, but only I know the truth.
I know that this is exactly what you’re trying to do for the Wannabes, tell them the truth, which is great, but I suggest that a lot of Wannabes know the pitfalls, and still possess the desire to fly for a living and still “chase the dream” with eyes wide open. My point being that the grass is no greener in any other profession. it’s just that I perceive that what you do for a living is slightly less ****ty than what I’m doing at the moment.
I have a license to learn, and I have done and continue to do so, I have been a PPRuNer as long as you so I have read threads similar to this before, and I have found them invaluable because they have shaped my perception of what it is like in the real world. I also know, as well as anyone can who’s on the outside, how things have changed, I have PPRuNe to thank for that too.
I know I'm green, but a shade less dazzling than some. I shall bow out now, having learnt a valuable lesson, booze and PPRuNe don’t mix.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Ahhhhhhh Snigs,
You've learnt a valuable lesson. Never post pissed. We've all done it and as the hangover fog clears, dive for the edit button.
Sounds like you need a weekend to yourself and your family. (If only you could find the time ay?)
You've learnt a valuable lesson. Never post pissed. We've all done it and as the hangover fog clears, dive for the edit button.
Sounds like you need a weekend to yourself and your family. (If only you could find the time ay?)
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Real Life 101
There are still people reading this thread that are discounting the contributions from working pilots.
Emotionally they've discounted it purely because of the of preponderance of opinions and fact knocking at the foundations of their plans and dreams. Just like smokers and the facts......
Therefore they have decided that in terms of their intellect the offerings are partial, biased and untrustworthy. As with the thread on airines that 'demand' an integrated course lets put those thoughts to the test.You are invited to rebut the following line by line and point by point. Let's hope for a little more than the hollow silence following the last little excercise in truth.
1: The JAA written exams have almost zero practical use. They are simply a hoop to jump over to gain membership of a very exclusive club because there is no GA industry in Europe to weed out those who won't make it. In countries with a thriving, if badly paid, GA scene other hurdles are presented barring the way to a jet flight deck such as the requirement for a 4 year degree in the States. In small or emerging nations this can take the form of formal entrance exams or simply patronage, bribery or nepotism. For decades the tens of thousands of Eastern European pilots had to be lifelong members of the communist party as well as university graduates.
Your outlook or cultural background will be reflected in how you view each of these entirely artificial hurdles to getting on a flight deck. Not one of them reflects your skills as an aviator. They are simply an entry control mechanism.
The psychology works like this - because all these mechanisms are entirely artificial, can be interchanged with any other one and are inherently divorced from the reality of the job working pilots ignore and reject everything you are going through. Once a pilot is competent and comfortable on line they want absolutely nothing to do with the utter nonsense that preceeded doing the real job. This is a key to the next question so don't blow all your ammo answering this one!
2: Why do experienced, working pilots refuse to take part in the two wannabees forums? You can't stop them sticking their oar in at every possible and conceivable opportunity everywhere else on the site. By nature they are opinionated - this forum has the opposite effect. Why? I'm serious, why do they avoid these forums so assiduously?
3: The words of the professionals offering their thoughts on the modern profession in this thread more that accurately reflect the overwhelming opinion of those posting on the rest of the site. Forums which uttely dwarf the two here. Do you disagree with that?
4: However aviation mad a wannabee is, however much they've lived and breathed it they have as much real knowledge of working life in the flightdeck as I have of competitive football. Just because I'm a mad, passionate and very knowledgable fan doesn't mean I have the slightwest inkling of what is going on the head and heart of a participating player.
5: Do you disagree that you are working extrememely hard and going into immense debt to spend 12 and 13 hour days behing a locked and barred door? Some reading this might find the thought of 30 or even 40 years of that quite depressing - some reading this will actually find that distressing. The average airline flight deck is an exciting wonderworld to most reading this. Like any work environment, even an A+E department, it just becomes where you work in time. Do you dispute that the average flight deck, locked and barred is also the size of an surburban downstairs loo? Do you believe that everyone reading this is fully informed and aware of that and is happy at the thought of up to 30 years or more in that space?
6: Are you disputing that we are telling wannabees the truth. Are you disputing that no training school, FTO or even trade union will ever inform a prospective customer or member of the facts we offer?
7: With a few honourable exceptions do you disagree that the vast majority of people in FTO's and clubs have never actually done the job they are training each other for in a spiral of unintentional ignorance and intentional marketing.
As an analogy if you speak to a teacher, policeman, paramedic or doc in a 'front line' inner city they will all have the shared experience of being joined by fully qualified probationers who were taught by those who couldn't hack it in that real same world. Not liking it or being able to cope is not the problem - their unwarranted, inexperienced influence on each new generation into the ranks is. Each wannabee spends a thousand times more 'influential' time with peer figures in aviation but without a moments airline experience than with actual airline people.
8: Should there be a place where wannabees can get the truth from people who are licenced, who are doing the job, who have succeded in getting through the system with no silver spoons getting in the way of RT and aren't taking a penny from you? You can't have that without telling painful truths at times? Do you dispute that we are being truthful?
Answers by teatime, best handwriting and spelling counts except mine
Regards from the Towers
Rob
There are still people reading this thread that are discounting the contributions from working pilots.
Emotionally they've discounted it purely because of the of preponderance of opinions and fact knocking at the foundations of their plans and dreams. Just like smokers and the facts......
Therefore they have decided that in terms of their intellect the offerings are partial, biased and untrustworthy. As with the thread on airines that 'demand' an integrated course lets put those thoughts to the test.You are invited to rebut the following line by line and point by point. Let's hope for a little more than the hollow silence following the last little excercise in truth.
1: The JAA written exams have almost zero practical use. They are simply a hoop to jump over to gain membership of a very exclusive club because there is no GA industry in Europe to weed out those who won't make it. In countries with a thriving, if badly paid, GA scene other hurdles are presented barring the way to a jet flight deck such as the requirement for a 4 year degree in the States. In small or emerging nations this can take the form of formal entrance exams or simply patronage, bribery or nepotism. For decades the tens of thousands of Eastern European pilots had to be lifelong members of the communist party as well as university graduates.
Your outlook or cultural background will be reflected in how you view each of these entirely artificial hurdles to getting on a flight deck. Not one of them reflects your skills as an aviator. They are simply an entry control mechanism.
The psychology works like this - because all these mechanisms are entirely artificial, can be interchanged with any other one and are inherently divorced from the reality of the job working pilots ignore and reject everything you are going through. Once a pilot is competent and comfortable on line they want absolutely nothing to do with the utter nonsense that preceeded doing the real job. This is a key to the next question so don't blow all your ammo answering this one!
2: Why do experienced, working pilots refuse to take part in the two wannabees forums? You can't stop them sticking their oar in at every possible and conceivable opportunity everywhere else on the site. By nature they are opinionated - this forum has the opposite effect. Why? I'm serious, why do they avoid these forums so assiduously?
3: The words of the professionals offering their thoughts on the modern profession in this thread more that accurately reflect the overwhelming opinion of those posting on the rest of the site. Forums which uttely dwarf the two here. Do you disagree with that?
4: However aviation mad a wannabee is, however much they've lived and breathed it they have as much real knowledge of working life in the flightdeck as I have of competitive football. Just because I'm a mad, passionate and very knowledgable fan doesn't mean I have the slightwest inkling of what is going on the head and heart of a participating player.
5: Do you disagree that you are working extrememely hard and going into immense debt to spend 12 and 13 hour days behing a locked and barred door? Some reading this might find the thought of 30 or even 40 years of that quite depressing - some reading this will actually find that distressing. The average airline flight deck is an exciting wonderworld to most reading this. Like any work environment, even an A+E department, it just becomes where you work in time. Do you dispute that the average flight deck, locked and barred is also the size of an surburban downstairs loo? Do you believe that everyone reading this is fully informed and aware of that and is happy at the thought of up to 30 years or more in that space?
6: Are you disputing that we are telling wannabees the truth. Are you disputing that no training school, FTO or even trade union will ever inform a prospective customer or member of the facts we offer?
7: With a few honourable exceptions do you disagree that the vast majority of people in FTO's and clubs have never actually done the job they are training each other for in a spiral of unintentional ignorance and intentional marketing.
As an analogy if you speak to a teacher, policeman, paramedic or doc in a 'front line' inner city they will all have the shared experience of being joined by fully qualified probationers who were taught by those who couldn't hack it in that real same world. Not liking it or being able to cope is not the problem - their unwarranted, inexperienced influence on each new generation into the ranks is. Each wannabee spends a thousand times more 'influential' time with peer figures in aviation but without a moments airline experience than with actual airline people.
8: Should there be a place where wannabees can get the truth from people who are licenced, who are doing the job, who have succeded in getting through the system with no silver spoons getting in the way of RT and aren't taking a penny from you? You can't have that without telling painful truths at times? Do you dispute that we are being truthful?
Answers by teatime, best handwriting and spelling counts except mine
Regards from the Towers
Rob
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As a wannabe (PPL/night 60hrs, 22 yrs old), i can sympathize with both sides of the story.
I had always fancied the idea of a pilot as much as i fancied the idea of being an astronaut, movie star, etc. But i focused on a more 'conventional' career path in engineering cos of my love for things technical. At the age of 15, i went on my first commercial flight since i was 3 on a B767-200. That was were the facination with aviation began and i have not lost my enthusiasm yet. There are a lot of wannabes who still have the childlike enthusiasm to fly commercially but havent woken up to the reality of the industry.
At the moment i do all kinds of jobs to finance my training and this has given me the opportunity to work in different industries and i can tell you that there aren't too many industries out there that are much better off than aviation.
wint3rmute
I'm glad you decided to post. your career is considered to be one of the more appealing at the moment. there are loads of people my age fighting for places in medical school who dont the reality of the job e.g GP's work 62hrs a week on average. So i its safe to say think naivete is widespread among youngsters in our society reagrdless of the industry they are aiming for. Don't be suprised by the harsh responses you have recieved. in aviation its hard to get a point across,no matter how valid, if you do not have "experience".
The next time you meet any 'city' professionals earning £150-200k ask to see their blood pressure monitors. these devices have become more and more common among today's professional because of the increasing pressure put on them in today's target-driven economy. I have a friend whose a millioniare property developer in the US and he wouldn't leave home without his BP monitor. I would like to have his money but i'll think twice about wanting his lifestyle. And when it comes to living on the road, let's just say that long haul begins to look pretty good. Jet lag? someof these guys have enough 'flying hours' that if they were pilots they'll be able to land a crippled 747 backwards in a 50kt crosswind
. I have an uncle who job has taken him to 170+ countries, try telling him about jet lag.
But i've got to say that airlines pilots long and short haul have a much better life than most people in todays society. The average brit earns £20-25k, works 40-50hrs (this figure is rising). The lifestyle of pilots has deteriorated over the past few years but pilots are still better off than the average worker. there are a lot of people who have gone into the aviation industry with the wrong expectations and they make up a large proportion of the "Whingers", but you have them in every industry.
My advice to fellow wannabes is that you get as much knowledge as you can before you dive headlong into this career or any career and you have a back up if things don't go according to plan. PPRUNE and it's founders/moderators/contributors has been an invaluable resource that a lot of us wannabes will forever be indebted to. But sometimes the genral opinion on pprune doesn't reflect reality, e.g. this thread has been mostly negative. Ask yourself how the public will feel if all pilots were to go on strike to protest deteriorating working conditions? Majority will feel little or no symathy.
I want to be a pilot because of my love for flying, travelling and sense of adventure and I'm aware of the downsides of the job.
Someone was suprised as to why most people don't go into business. the level of corporate bankrupcies have skyrocketed over the past few years and interest rates are rising. and if you want to know why some of us dont want to go into the city, well as i mentioned above there is more stress and longer working hours than in aviation and also the future isn't rosy when it comes to earning potential because of the fat-cat-pay revolt and a growing resentment of graduates (there is a feeling that a lot of graduates earn more than the really deserve or are doing jobs that aren't really necessary.
I personally think that the govt and industry in general will be forced to cut back on bureaucracy and waste in the future to reduce operating costs/tax and a lot of high earners will lose their jobs.
I am not putting my hopes on improving working conditions for pilots but i will do my best to make sure they do when i find myself in a position to do so, but it isn't about the money. There was a study recently that concluded that the happiest people earn £13000 (let's hope MOL doesnt read that
).
Capt. Manuvar
I had always fancied the idea of a pilot as much as i fancied the idea of being an astronaut, movie star, etc. But i focused on a more 'conventional' career path in engineering cos of my love for things technical. At the age of 15, i went on my first commercial flight since i was 3 on a B767-200. That was were the facination with aviation began and i have not lost my enthusiasm yet. There are a lot of wannabes who still have the childlike enthusiasm to fly commercially but havent woken up to the reality of the industry.
At the moment i do all kinds of jobs to finance my training and this has given me the opportunity to work in different industries and i can tell you that there aren't too many industries out there that are much better off than aviation.
wint3rmute
I'm glad you decided to post. your career is considered to be one of the more appealing at the moment. there are loads of people my age fighting for places in medical school who dont the reality of the job e.g GP's work 62hrs a week on average. So i its safe to say think naivete is widespread among youngsters in our society reagrdless of the industry they are aiming for. Don't be suprised by the harsh responses you have recieved. in aviation its hard to get a point across,no matter how valid, if you do not have "experience".
The next time you meet any 'city' professionals earning £150-200k ask to see their blood pressure monitors. these devices have become more and more common among today's professional because of the increasing pressure put on them in today's target-driven economy. I have a friend whose a millioniare property developer in the US and he wouldn't leave home without his BP monitor. I would like to have his money but i'll think twice about wanting his lifestyle. And when it comes to living on the road, let's just say that long haul begins to look pretty good. Jet lag? someof these guys have enough 'flying hours' that if they were pilots they'll be able to land a crippled 747 backwards in a 50kt crosswind
. I have an uncle who job has taken him to 170+ countries, try telling him about jet lag.But i've got to say that airlines pilots long and short haul have a much better life than most people in todays society. The average brit earns £20-25k, works 40-50hrs (this figure is rising). The lifestyle of pilots has deteriorated over the past few years but pilots are still better off than the average worker. there are a lot of people who have gone into the aviation industry with the wrong expectations and they make up a large proportion of the "Whingers", but you have them in every industry.
My advice to fellow wannabes is that you get as much knowledge as you can before you dive headlong into this career or any career and you have a back up if things don't go according to plan. PPRUNE and it's founders/moderators/contributors has been an invaluable resource that a lot of us wannabes will forever be indebted to. But sometimes the genral opinion on pprune doesn't reflect reality, e.g. this thread has been mostly negative. Ask yourself how the public will feel if all pilots were to go on strike to protest deteriorating working conditions? Majority will feel little or no symathy.
I want to be a pilot because of my love for flying, travelling and sense of adventure and I'm aware of the downsides of the job.
Someone was suprised as to why most people don't go into business. the level of corporate bankrupcies have skyrocketed over the past few years and interest rates are rising. and if you want to know why some of us dont want to go into the city, well as i mentioned above there is more stress and longer working hours than in aviation and also the future isn't rosy when it comes to earning potential because of the fat-cat-pay revolt and a growing resentment of graduates (there is a feeling that a lot of graduates earn more than the really deserve or are doing jobs that aren't really necessary.
I personally think that the govt and industry in general will be forced to cut back on bureaucracy and waste in the future to reduce operating costs/tax and a lot of high earners will lose their jobs.
I am not putting my hopes on improving working conditions for pilots but i will do my best to make sure they do when i find myself in a position to do so, but it isn't about the money. There was a study recently that concluded that the happiest people earn £13000 (let's hope MOL doesnt read that
).Capt. Manuvar
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Snigs, as Redsnail says, we've all been there. Seems like such a good idea at the time!! Just hope you enjoyed the Rioja....
Anyway, no worries. (And I think you'd find me surprisingly easy to get on with in the cockpit - even if I do say so myself!)
I'm not starting the whole argument up again, don't worry, but I think further explanation is important for all wanabees, because it directly affects your future working conditions in aviation.
Your Tom, Dick or Harry comparison provoked a reaction mainly because our status as professionals has been consistently attacked in recent times, especially so over the last decade. Many airlines have, and are, cutting our terms and conditions of employment down to the very bone.
One of the easiest ways they can achieve this is to portray the job as something less than it actually is. A job that anyone who has the money to pay for a licence can do. You see the problem? And obviously to the general public, shareholders etc, this would seem to make perfect sense. It's a job you buy your way into, why should they receive any more remuneration than a bus driver? Why shouldn't they work 12 hour days six days a week? And so the rot continues............
This is only one of the ways in which the quality of your life as a professional pilot is constantly under threat. (And most of that quality has now gone in the shorthaul game certainly but that's a different story).
So, if those of us on the inside don't do everything we can to preserve the totally justified perception of our professional status, then what hope do we all have? You can perhaps gauge more clearly now why you should do everything you can to promote the importance of that professional licence. We've enough people on the outside attacking it.
I can remember sitting in the right hand seat as a new F/O, back in the days when cockpit visits were allowed. And it used to drive me mad when some Captains would immediately say "it's flying on autopilot, all we have to do is sit here and watch it" or words to that effect. Or "it's easier than it looks once you get the hang of it" (sic)!!! Now these comments usually came from a misplaced sense of modesty, of not wanting to appear arrogant. What they failed to realise was that nine times out of ten they were simply confirming the publics' misconceptions about the job in the first place. You can imagine it - "what a job - they just sit there and push some buttons and the 'plane does it all for them - and they get paid a fortune".
So I always try to make sure I don't fuel these misconceptions. The job is tough and does require unique skills of mental agility, physical co-ordination, spatial awareness and management of both man and machine. And sometimes even good old fashioned bravery! We should never make it seem less than that. There are enough people out there trying to do that for us.
Anyway, thanks for the reply Snigs, once again, no worries.
Then I read Capt Manuvars post.........
There's a big dent in the brick wall where my head keeps hitting it.
Capt. Manuvar. Well, what can one say? Here we go again.
ah, you've already worked as a pliot then?
well, erm, yes, that's because we have the experience and you don't!
actually, high blood pressure through stress and a sedentary life style can be a big problem for pilots too you know.
erm yes but those "flying hours as you call them are spent eating, drinking, sleeping and watching movies down the back.
how would you actually know? That's what I'd really like you to tell me - how would you know?? You obviously know better than me.
I suppose you'd class me as one of them then. I had the wrong expectations, and I'm just a whinger.
yes, but you seem incapable of properly assimilating this knowledge.
nicely backs up the point I was making in my last post.
I can forgive you this because you're young. But I can assure you that come your thirties and forties, money will be a big issue, probably the biggest next to health. Sure, money can't by happiness, but it stops you being a slave, and the more you have of it, the more choices you have in life, therefore the more freedom. And I'll tell you, freedom goes a long way to getting you near to happiness.
now that's funny. Love for flying - great, a prerequisite. Travel? Sense of adventure? Join the army and try and get into special forces.
Here's what to do. Take your computer, load up MS Flightsim and set yourself up in the broomcupboard. Ask a grouchy neighbour in his mid fifties who you don't particularly like to come in with you. Get your mum/wife/girlfriend to lock the door and be on the other end of a mobile when you want something - but only now and then. Run the hoover in the cupboard to simulate flight deck noise levels with the recirc fans. Now stay in there flying routes. Make sure you do all the proper RT. Checklists. Oh, and make sure you let the neighbour be the Captain and run the show. (Remember you don't really like him). Have a crappy TV dinner thingy for lunch. Eat it on your knee with the hoover still going - that's the cleaners. Eat it in five minutes 'cos you're late. Go outside in the rain and get wet. That's the walkround. Do lots of performance calculations. Repeat ad nauseam at all times of the day and night for six days. Give yourself two days off, finishing at midnight then getting up at four thirty in the morning to start all over. Do this for years. Then eventually you can swap seats with your neighbour, and his son can come and be your F/O. Continue until retirement.
This is not, I repeat not, meant to be a comparison with other jobs. That is largely irrelevant - it's you guys who keep coming up with the comparisons. But it is meant to give you a taste of reality, not fantasy.
Anyway, no worries. (And I think you'd find me surprisingly easy to get on with in the cockpit - even if I do say so myself!)
I'm not starting the whole argument up again, don't worry, but I think further explanation is important for all wanabees, because it directly affects your future working conditions in aviation.
Your Tom, Dick or Harry comparison provoked a reaction mainly because our status as professionals has been consistently attacked in recent times, especially so over the last decade. Many airlines have, and are, cutting our terms and conditions of employment down to the very bone.
One of the easiest ways they can achieve this is to portray the job as something less than it actually is. A job that anyone who has the money to pay for a licence can do. You see the problem? And obviously to the general public, shareholders etc, this would seem to make perfect sense. It's a job you buy your way into, why should they receive any more remuneration than a bus driver? Why shouldn't they work 12 hour days six days a week? And so the rot continues............
This is only one of the ways in which the quality of your life as a professional pilot is constantly under threat. (And most of that quality has now gone in the shorthaul game certainly but that's a different story).
So, if those of us on the inside don't do everything we can to preserve the totally justified perception of our professional status, then what hope do we all have? You can perhaps gauge more clearly now why you should do everything you can to promote the importance of that professional licence. We've enough people on the outside attacking it.
I can remember sitting in the right hand seat as a new F/O, back in the days when cockpit visits were allowed. And it used to drive me mad when some Captains would immediately say "it's flying on autopilot, all we have to do is sit here and watch it" or words to that effect. Or "it's easier than it looks once you get the hang of it" (sic)!!! Now these comments usually came from a misplaced sense of modesty, of not wanting to appear arrogant. What they failed to realise was that nine times out of ten they were simply confirming the publics' misconceptions about the job in the first place. You can imagine it - "what a job - they just sit there and push some buttons and the 'plane does it all for them - and they get paid a fortune".
So I always try to make sure I don't fuel these misconceptions. The job is tough and does require unique skills of mental agility, physical co-ordination, spatial awareness and management of both man and machine. And sometimes even good old fashioned bravery! We should never make it seem less than that. There are enough people out there trying to do that for us.
Anyway, thanks for the reply Snigs, once again, no worries.
Then I read Capt Manuvars post.........
There's a big dent in the brick wall where my head keeps hitting it.
Capt. Manuvar. Well, what can one say? Here we go again.
i can tell you that there aren't too many industries out there that are much better off than aviation
in aviation its hard to get a point across,no matter how valid, if you do not have "experience".
The next time you meet any 'city' professionals earning £150-200k ask to see their blood pressure monitors
And when it comes to living on the road, let's just say that long haul begins to look pretty good. Jet lag? someof these guys have enough 'flying hours' that if they were pilots they'll be able to land a crippled 747 backwards in a 50kt crosswind
But i've got to say that airlines pilots long and short haul have a much better life than most people in todays society
there are a lot of people who have gone into the aviation industry with the wrong expectations and they make up a large proportion of the "Whingers",
My advice to fellow wannabes is that you get as much knowledge as you can before you dive headlong into this career
Ask yourself how the public will feel if all pilots were to go on strike to protest deteriorating working conditions? Majority will feel little or no symathy
it isn't about the money. There was a study recently that concluded that the happiest people earn £13000
want to be a pilot because of my love for flying, travelling and sense of adventure and I'm aware of the downsides of the job
Here's what to do. Take your computer, load up MS Flightsim and set yourself up in the broomcupboard. Ask a grouchy neighbour in his mid fifties who you don't particularly like to come in with you. Get your mum/wife/girlfriend to lock the door and be on the other end of a mobile when you want something - but only now and then. Run the hoover in the cupboard to simulate flight deck noise levels with the recirc fans. Now stay in there flying routes. Make sure you do all the proper RT. Checklists. Oh, and make sure you let the neighbour be the Captain and run the show. (Remember you don't really like him). Have a crappy TV dinner thingy for lunch. Eat it on your knee with the hoover still going - that's the cleaners. Eat it in five minutes 'cos you're late. Go outside in the rain and get wet. That's the walkround. Do lots of performance calculations. Repeat ad nauseam at all times of the day and night for six days. Give yourself two days off, finishing at midnight then getting up at four thirty in the morning to start all over. Do this for years. Then eventually you can swap seats with your neighbour, and his son can come and be your F/O. Continue until retirement.
This is not, I repeat not, meant to be a comparison with other jobs. That is largely irrelevant - it's you guys who keep coming up with the comparisons. But it is meant to give you a taste of reality, not fantasy.
Last edited by Maximum; 15th Mar 2004 at 11:20.
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Hey, wint3rmute I love my job. And I care enough about it that I don't want people joining it under a misapprehension of what it really entails. Most of all, I don't want to have to fly with people who whinge about it not being what they expected.
So, as the schools will not whisper a breath about what it's really like, we have to tell the warts'n'all stuff here. Why don't the schools tell the truth? Mostly because they don't actually know what working in the airlines is actually like in the 21st century - many don't even posess an ex-airline pilot on their staff! But, by Christ, they'll hype it up to the eyeballs and then some...... because they need the Wannabes' dosh. They don't give a flying toss what you discover once you've qualified and they've got your £60,000.
Don't believe me? Go and ask your school's instructors when they last flew in an airliner as other than passengers! Ask them what are the prevalent issues that airline pilots face, as identified by BALPA and the IPA? Where are the lectures on the downsides of our lifestyle and how to cope with them - and, most importantly, how to prepare your family for them?
Because of the perceived glamour, the downsides of airline flying are dismissed as whingeing, but the reality is that it is as hard as any career out there - and maybe harder than most. The NHS environment has become a byword for poor working practices, long shifts and burned-out workers (and profligate spending on fripperies, consultants and management - but hey, this is a pilots' thread on a pilots' site!), but it's not the only one to suffer these problems - just the best known.
'Keep your eyes open, and don't believe the hype' is really the message we're trying to give. If you stick to that, you're far more likely to avoid disillusionment and to actually enjoy the realities of this career.
Scroggs
So, as the schools will not whisper a breath about what it's really like, we have to tell the warts'n'all stuff here. Why don't the schools tell the truth? Mostly because they don't actually know what working in the airlines is actually like in the 21st century - many don't even posess an ex-airline pilot on their staff! But, by Christ, they'll hype it up to the eyeballs and then some...... because they need the Wannabes' dosh. They don't give a flying toss what you discover once you've qualified and they've got your £60,000.
Don't believe me? Go and ask your school's instructors when they last flew in an airliner as other than passengers! Ask them what are the prevalent issues that airline pilots face, as identified by BALPA and the IPA? Where are the lectures on the downsides of our lifestyle and how to cope with them - and, most importantly, how to prepare your family for them?
Because of the perceived glamour, the downsides of airline flying are dismissed as whingeing, but the reality is that it is as hard as any career out there - and maybe harder than most. The NHS environment has become a byword for poor working practices, long shifts and burned-out workers (and profligate spending on fripperies, consultants and management - but hey, this is a pilots' thread on a pilots' site!), but it's not the only one to suffer these problems - just the best known.
'Keep your eyes open, and don't believe the hype' is really the message we're trying to give. If you stick to that, you're far more likely to avoid disillusionment and to actually enjoy the realities of this career.
Scroggs
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OK Rob, here goes:
1) Agreed. The whole object of the exercise is to get the little blue licence and then get a foothold on the employment ladder. This forum is stacked out with people trying to do just that, and I can easily see why – once ensconced in the cockpit – the trials and tribulations of getting there lose relevance and fade into the background.
2) Maybe, just maybe, it’s because when they do try and offer an insight into what the job is really like, they are very often shot down by an audience that doesn’t want to hear the message. That is precisely the point I tried to make 3 pages ago. Bonkers if you ask me, as it simply puts people off trying – maybe it’s a reflection of the ages of some of our posters, maybe it comes from being anonymous - I really don’t know.
3) I can’t argue with that. Like I’ve already said, I’d love to hear some words of encouragement from experienced (say 5 years plus) commercial pilots, but they are conspicuous by their absence. All the pilot’s I’ve jumpseated with were welcoming, encouraging and positive about the future in aviation. Obviously that was before 9/11.
Your description and prognosis suggests that fewer and fewer people will decide this is the career for them. That must trouble you as much as anyone?
4) Correct. Now that the flightdeck door is firmly shut, we rely more than ever on information such as this forum provides. We can hang around airfields and hope to meet someone on their day off, but what else can we do?
5) No, I don’t disagree at all. You might also have mentioned strange smells from the forward toilet, lowered immune systems from having a permanently disjointed body clock, the effects of spending your working life cooped up in extremely dry rarefied air. Some of us are aware that the job isn’t really that glamorous – or even healthy – and we still want to do it. I must be barmy.
6) Nope, not at all. You’ve got no axe to grind and you’re not trying to make a profit out of me.
7) Like you, I can think of a few exceptions, but yes, they are few and far between.
8) No argument.
Not exactly a point by point rebuttal, but I think I’ve at least managed to spell most of it correctly.
And a quick question for you; with the benefit of hindsight, if you could turn the clock back, risk it all and follow your dream, would you do it all again? Answers (a) as at September 10th 2001, and (b) today.
1) Agreed. The whole object of the exercise is to get the little blue licence and then get a foothold on the employment ladder. This forum is stacked out with people trying to do just that, and I can easily see why – once ensconced in the cockpit – the trials and tribulations of getting there lose relevance and fade into the background.
2) Maybe, just maybe, it’s because when they do try and offer an insight into what the job is really like, they are very often shot down by an audience that doesn’t want to hear the message. That is precisely the point I tried to make 3 pages ago. Bonkers if you ask me, as it simply puts people off trying – maybe it’s a reflection of the ages of some of our posters, maybe it comes from being anonymous - I really don’t know.
3) I can’t argue with that. Like I’ve already said, I’d love to hear some words of encouragement from experienced (say 5 years plus) commercial pilots, but they are conspicuous by their absence. All the pilot’s I’ve jumpseated with were welcoming, encouraging and positive about the future in aviation. Obviously that was before 9/11.
Your description and prognosis suggests that fewer and fewer people will decide this is the career for them. That must trouble you as much as anyone?
4) Correct. Now that the flightdeck door is firmly shut, we rely more than ever on information such as this forum provides. We can hang around airfields and hope to meet someone on their day off, but what else can we do?
5) No, I don’t disagree at all. You might also have mentioned strange smells from the forward toilet, lowered immune systems from having a permanently disjointed body clock, the effects of spending your working life cooped up in extremely dry rarefied air. Some of us are aware that the job isn’t really that glamorous – or even healthy – and we still want to do it. I must be barmy.
6) Nope, not at all. You’ve got no axe to grind and you’re not trying to make a profit out of me.
7) Like you, I can think of a few exceptions, but yes, they are few and far between.
8) No argument.
Not exactly a point by point rebuttal, but I think I’ve at least managed to spell most of it correctly.
And a quick question for you; with the benefit of hindsight, if you could turn the clock back, risk it all and follow your dream, would you do it all again? Answers (a) as at September 10th 2001, and (b) today.
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G SXTY
Great reply but it would be expected from you and few other of the wise heads. Your point 5 was actually better than mine.
But enough of the carefree banter - some straight answers.
Prior to the mid 1990's I'd do it again in a heart beat. Bear in mind that even then the old hands said, with genuine accuracy, that it wasn't the job it was. It was then that we lost slot after slot and went hours into discretion doing baggage ID's. Years later 911 has only formalised and speeded up what was already happening.
Post mid 1990's/911 and under generic UK management working in the 'spirit' of Cap 371 I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Whether carrying on with previous profession or skills or retraining in a hands dirty trade I would have the time to fly my Jodel and, once re-established, the money to start playing with interesting aircraft of the vintage, warbird or rotary ilk. This is an amateur website in the best sense of the word - I'd love to be an amateur pilot in the best and most enjoyable meaning as well. This thread is here to point out that we suspect many of you would actually be far happier following that route. Especially once you have families - some of you will have or had absent parents and know what I mean. Imagine growing up, every birthday you ever had not, knowing if your mum or dad would be there. Every one of them. You too can be that parent.
If it ends up that there are fewer of you it will, according to market economics, mean that the job will improve or at least slow down the decrements in income, perks and quality of life. In reality it probably just means Reddo will get all her mates over.....
However, a confession, most full time pilots would cheerfully kill to get my Boeing job. It is very different, very demanding at times and I rather like it. The reason - well I don't work as an airline pilot anymore.
Regards
Rob
Great reply but it would be expected from you and few other of the wise heads. Your point 5 was actually better than mine.
But enough of the carefree banter - some straight answers.
Prior to the mid 1990's I'd do it again in a heart beat. Bear in mind that even then the old hands said, with genuine accuracy, that it wasn't the job it was. It was then that we lost slot after slot and went hours into discretion doing baggage ID's. Years later 911 has only formalised and speeded up what was already happening.
Post mid 1990's/911 and under generic UK management working in the 'spirit' of Cap 371 I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Whether carrying on with previous profession or skills or retraining in a hands dirty trade I would have the time to fly my Jodel and, once re-established, the money to start playing with interesting aircraft of the vintage, warbird or rotary ilk. This is an amateur website in the best sense of the word - I'd love to be an amateur pilot in the best and most enjoyable meaning as well. This thread is here to point out that we suspect many of you would actually be far happier following that route. Especially once you have families - some of you will have or had absent parents and know what I mean. Imagine growing up, every birthday you ever had not, knowing if your mum or dad would be there. Every one of them. You too can be that parent.
If it ends up that there are fewer of you it will, according to market economics, mean that the job will improve or at least slow down the decrements in income, perks and quality of life. In reality it probably just means Reddo will get all her mates over.....
However, a confession, most full time pilots would cheerfully kill to get my Boeing job. It is very different, very demanding at times and I rather like it. The reason - well I don't work as an airline pilot anymore.
Regards
Rob
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Rob says it all.
We're not just displaying the changing viewpoint that you'd expect from anyone who's been in any business for some time.
The job really has changed enormously. The rot set in in the early nineties, then started to accelerate throughout the rest of the decade.
Before then, I too would do it all over again at the drop of a hat. But with the working conditions you're looking at now, it's just not an attractive or sensible proposition. So much better to make money and fly for yourself in my opinion.
And as well as missing kids' birthdays, there's Christmas as well. For a lot of airlines these days, Christmas is just another day. Not very nice looking back to all the times you might have dissapointed your kids.
These words are meant in the sincerest way. Don't believe the hype.
We're not just displaying the changing viewpoint that you'd expect from anyone who's been in any business for some time.
The job really has changed enormously. The rot set in in the early nineties, then started to accelerate throughout the rest of the decade.
Before then, I too would do it all over again at the drop of a hat. But with the working conditions you're looking at now, it's just not an attractive or sensible proposition. So much better to make money and fly for yourself in my opinion.
And as well as missing kids' birthdays, there's Christmas as well. For a lot of airlines these days, Christmas is just another day. Not very nice looking back to all the times you might have dissapointed your kids.
These words are meant in the sincerest way. Don't believe the hype.
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Why don’t you all quit and become barristers? You’d be pretty damn good!
After being shot down in flames a page or two ago, I don’t think I’ll offer any more opinion than the one above. I do however have a couple of questions.
1)How have the working hours got so much worse? Are they not rigidly restricted?
2)Exactly how have things changed since 9/11? I don’t know anything more than the bolted door and increased pre flight security. I’m really not interested in ‘I can’t believe you don’t know responses’ – I don’t fly jets.
3)Do you even get to leave the cockpit for a stretch? What about DVT?
4)Am I correct in assuming that given the continuation of terrorist activities and the subsequent 8% drop in BA’s shares last week that this lack of faith will keep things this way? So no jumpseats then?
Kind regards
After being shot down in flames a page or two ago, I don’t think I’ll offer any more opinion than the one above. I do however have a couple of questions.
1)How have the working hours got so much worse? Are they not rigidly restricted?
2)Exactly how have things changed since 9/11? I don’t know anything more than the bolted door and increased pre flight security. I’m really not interested in ‘I can’t believe you don’t know responses’ – I don’t fly jets.
3)Do you even get to leave the cockpit for a stretch? What about DVT?
4)Am I correct in assuming that given the continuation of terrorist activities and the subsequent 8% drop in BA’s shares last week that this lack of faith will keep things this way? So no jumpseats then?
Kind regards
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I have been reading this tread with interest, there have been a lot of good points raised by people on both sides of the argument.
What I find is that the 'wannabes' as previously stated seem to be looking at the whole aviation industry through rose tinted glasses. This in itself is not a problem, what the problem seems to be is that when an experienced pilot makes a post on this forum pointing out the realities of life as a pilot he or she is cut down.
The main reply seems to be along the lines of 'I love flying and have always wanted to be a pilot so will not get bored and certainly won't winge!'. I must admit that when I was a wannabe I held this exact view, I thought 'hey if you don't like the job and want to winge then give up and let someone like me who loves flying do the job'.
What people have to realise is that most of us love flying and have always wanted to be pilots, if you didn't then the chances of putting up with all of the trials and tribulations along the way would be slim. The harsh reality is though that a love of flying and all things aviation will not stop you from becoming bored and disenchanted with the job, especially when you can see conditions becoming worse by the month.
Yes we are protected by 'flight time limitations', I can tell you though that when you fly to the limits of these limitations day in day out you soon start to wonder whether they do in fact prevent fatigue. I have done all sorts of work from office to labouring and have never been as knackered as I am at the end of a six day stint doing six sectors a day with twenty five minute turn arounds.
In the past this was compensated for by the 'bennefits and pay' that a pilot could expect, these to though have all but dissappeared, it is cheaper for me to book travel through a travel agent than to buy a ticket from 'staff travel'. If I want anything to drink besides water on board the aircraft I have to pay 'normal rates', no discount for staff, I can't run into the terminal to buy a can of coke becuase you get searched both ways which in itself is not a problem except when you have twenty five minutes to offload, reload, fuel, complete paperwork and get underway for the next sector. As for the pay, yes some senior jobs do certainly get paid well. This is not a comfort though when your average wage is used to maintain the tens of thousands of pounds of debt you will accrew on the way to your licence.
Having said all of this, the flying ultimately makes up for all of this, just please enter the industry with eyes open.
A.H
What I find is that the 'wannabes' as previously stated seem to be looking at the whole aviation industry through rose tinted glasses. This in itself is not a problem, what the problem seems to be is that when an experienced pilot makes a post on this forum pointing out the realities of life as a pilot he or she is cut down.
The main reply seems to be along the lines of 'I love flying and have always wanted to be a pilot so will not get bored and certainly won't winge!'. I must admit that when I was a wannabe I held this exact view, I thought 'hey if you don't like the job and want to winge then give up and let someone like me who loves flying do the job'.
What people have to realise is that most of us love flying and have always wanted to be pilots, if you didn't then the chances of putting up with all of the trials and tribulations along the way would be slim. The harsh reality is though that a love of flying and all things aviation will not stop you from becoming bored and disenchanted with the job, especially when you can see conditions becoming worse by the month.
Yes we are protected by 'flight time limitations', I can tell you though that when you fly to the limits of these limitations day in day out you soon start to wonder whether they do in fact prevent fatigue. I have done all sorts of work from office to labouring and have never been as knackered as I am at the end of a six day stint doing six sectors a day with twenty five minute turn arounds.
In the past this was compensated for by the 'bennefits and pay' that a pilot could expect, these to though have all but dissappeared, it is cheaper for me to book travel through a travel agent than to buy a ticket from 'staff travel'. If I want anything to drink besides water on board the aircraft I have to pay 'normal rates', no discount for staff, I can't run into the terminal to buy a can of coke becuase you get searched both ways which in itself is not a problem except when you have twenty five minutes to offload, reload, fuel, complete paperwork and get underway for the next sector. As for the pay, yes some senior jobs do certainly get paid well. This is not a comfort though when your average wage is used to maintain the tens of thousands of pounds of debt you will accrew on the way to your licence.
Having said all of this, the flying ultimately makes up for all of this, just please enter the industry with eyes open.
A.H
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Why don’t you all quit and become barristers? You’d be pretty damn good!
In answer to your questions, I'll try to keep it brief:
1)How have the working hours got so much worse? Are they not rigidly restricted?
2)Exactly how have things changed since 9/11? I don’t know anything more than the bolted door and increased pre flight security.
3)Do you even get to leave the cockpit for a stretch? What about DVT?
4)Am I correct in assuming that given the continuation of terrorist activities and the subsequent 8% drop in BA’s shares last week that this lack of faith will keep things this way? So no jumpseats then?
The bottom line is, we are now treated like hamsters on a wheel. Get locked into the cockpit, minimal food and water, work up to the limits, go home, eat, sleep and start all over again. And don't make a mistake. Lots of stress and pressure and very little fun I'm afraid.
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Dear all,
I have read this thread with great interest and i think a lot of the concerns raised here actually varies quite significantly from one operartor to another. Could AH, Maximum and others who have made comments on their lifestyles please let us know who they work for and at the very least let us know if they are majors, regionals, GA etc etc. Then we may be able to put all this into perspective!
Jam
I have read this thread with great interest and i think a lot of the concerns raised here actually varies quite significantly from one operartor to another. Could AH, Maximum and others who have made comments on their lifestyles please let us know who they work for and at the very least let us know if they are majors, regionals, GA etc etc. Then we may be able to put all this into perspective!
Jam
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I worked for a night freight operator flying Sheds in the UK. Resignation takes effect this Thurs, off to a lo-co.
I doubt many of the working guys will state the company who they work for. Anonymity and all.....
For me it's too hard to remain anonymous.
I doubt many of the working guys will state the company who they work for. Anonymity and all.....
For me it's too hard to remain anonymous.
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jam123 yes, I was also getting concerned that Maximum's posts would be seen as applying to all ailines!
As most of you know, I work for Virgin Atlantic. The vast majority of my flying is ultra-long haul (12 hour sectors). While we don't have an open cockpit door, we do have an effective security set up which allows relatively easy access by the crew, and the sector lengths mean that it is impractical (and bloody dangerous) to prohibit excursions by pilots.
I don't work every day, but I do work very long hours, which often do approach the restrictions, even with the extensions permitted by the use of three or even four pilots. I do still get around 12-15 days off at home every month, but sleep absorbs many of them!
The security restricions have reduced the attractiveness, and the availability, of staff travel, and we can't now use flight deck jump seats for family members, but to be honest a busy airline will dump staff travellers in favour of full-fare peeps - and always did! Maybe I'm unusual, but I can't see the point of travelling in my spare time - that's my job!
Anyway, for me the job is still good, but not as good as it was. Trouble is, you've pretty much got to go through a period at one of the airlines like Max's before you can get to something like Virgin.
As most of you know, I work for Virgin Atlantic. The vast majority of my flying is ultra-long haul (12 hour sectors). While we don't have an open cockpit door, we do have an effective security set up which allows relatively easy access by the crew, and the sector lengths mean that it is impractical (and bloody dangerous) to prohibit excursions by pilots.
I don't work every day, but I do work very long hours, which often do approach the restrictions, even with the extensions permitted by the use of three or even four pilots. I do still get around 12-15 days off at home every month, but sleep absorbs many of them!
The security restricions have reduced the attractiveness, and the availability, of staff travel, and we can't now use flight deck jump seats for family members, but to be honest a busy airline will dump staff travellers in favour of full-fare peeps - and always did! Maybe I'm unusual, but I can't see the point of travelling in my spare time - that's my job!
Anyway, for me the job is still good, but not as good as it was. Trouble is, you've pretty much got to go through a period at one of the airlines like Max's before you can get to something like Virgin.
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jam123 and scroggs, apologies if I've given the impression there isn't variation between operators and short haul/long haul.
I am obviously talking from a "short" haul jet perspective. I say "short" because two sectors sometimes there and back can add up to a long haul flight time, but that's another story. Most wanabees who make it will be heading for this type of operation.
Another thing to remember, and I'm sure scroggs would agree, is that long haul doesn't suit everyone. In my own career I could have gone down this route but I don't like long sectors and I'd prefer to be at home at night (not that short haul has always given me this either!). Horses for courses I guess.
Average days off per month these days in short haul jet operation between 8 and 10 depending on the operator. But remember, you're working earlies, lates etc and generally finishing lates before days off and starting earlies, so in reality you're getting less time off than the average while having no time for anything social on the days you work.
I must point out, my posts are not intended to be a "downer" on flying in any way. I love flying. It's the rest of the cr*p I hate. My intention is to give you the reality behind the myth as I see it - it's obviously up to you guys to decide what you do with it.
I am obviously talking from a "short" haul jet perspective. I say "short" because two sectors sometimes there and back can add up to a long haul flight time, but that's another story. Most wanabees who make it will be heading for this type of operation.
Another thing to remember, and I'm sure scroggs would agree, is that long haul doesn't suit everyone. In my own career I could have gone down this route but I don't like long sectors and I'd prefer to be at home at night (not that short haul has always given me this either!). Horses for courses I guess.
Average days off per month these days in short haul jet operation between 8 and 10 depending on the operator. But remember, you're working earlies, lates etc and generally finishing lates before days off and starting earlies, so in reality you're getting less time off than the average while having no time for anything social on the days you work.
I must point out, my posts are not intended to be a "downer" on flying in any way. I love flying. It's the rest of the cr*p I hate. My intention is to give you the reality behind the myth as I see it - it's obviously up to you guys to decide what you do with it.
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Max, you're absolutely right - long haul doesn't suit everyone! I fly with one or two who should definitely move back to short haul, but there you go. Short haul is too intense for me. Time away from home is relative - I spend more time away in one go, but I get to take the kids to school and I get lunch in the pub occasionally, so I'm happy with that. The ex-wife wasn't, though... and she would have hated the short-haul lifestyle even more. So it's well worth all wannabes thinking very carefully about what this job does to family life.
As you rightly point out, short-haul is where you guys are going, at least for a few years. I know there are one or two of you who occasionally get a long-haul sector with Britannia, Monarch etc, but that is not living the long haul lifestyle!
As you rightly point out, short-haul is where you guys are going, at least for a few years. I know there are one or two of you who occasionally get a long-haul sector with Britannia, Monarch etc, but that is not living the long haul lifestyle!