WMU - Probably The Best Training Choice Available.

[Jonny]

Almost right. Of the three 2-week breaks you may only use 2. There is however a week off for Christmas so you could make 3 trips home.

Can't believe i bothered to post that.

Are you thinking of going in April JohnnyPharm?

[Send Clowns]

Then perhaps a title of "...probably the best training choice available" and comments on employment prospects were not helpful. That is what I meant about spreading the schools' propoganda! I would not even suggest you spread any propoganda my own employer came out with (I cannot think of any, except that you chould visit a few schools before choosing and we'd prefer if ours was one) unless you had good argument to support them.

[no sponsor]

Well said Scroggs.

I met the CEO of a large integrated school in the UK very recently and he said exactly that.

Nevertheless, WMU does look like a very good deal. They will be at the flyer exhibition in March.

But, don't forget that what goes up will come down. Not very long ago (24 months ago) the reverse was true of $ versus £. So unless you are going to start training very soon, it might be all very academic. Don't forget that unless you want to pay all up-front (not advised) then rates will normalise over the coming 6-12 months, so you must budget for future changes in your calculations if you plan to pay from a UK credit card. Furthermore, this also means that every other school in the US is being affected, so modular courses in the US must be as cheap as chips. (If you take Scroggs point of view, as do I).

[FlyingForFun]

Not quite true, No Sponsor. Nothing to stop you buying a load of dollars when you think the price has hit rock bottom, and keeping them either in a USD bank account, or stashed under the bed(!) until you're ready to hand them over to a flying school! The exchange rate movements really shouldn't force you to pay up front.

FFF
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[Thundercat]

Thanks for that reminder JohnnyPharm - the restriction on leave (same at FTE Jerez I believe) means that you cannot make constant hops home even if you wanted to. So there's an enforced saving!

Send Clowns; I emphatically disagree. Your understanding and mine for the use of this forum are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum. I am not spreading propaganda, because for that I would have to have an intent to market or create 'spin' for WMU. I clearly don't. I am another wannabee trying to attain a good sample of views on this particular establishment at this time. I am quite simply making a statement to encourage some interesting and experienced responses. Unfortunetely your views do not seem to be based on anything other than "don't promote another establishment because it may mislead or take business away from mine!". You're missing the point. I'm in the process, along with many others, of making a decision based on a myriad of factors. If you don't think my suggestion is a good one, fine, explain why it isn't and where perhaps I should look at also/instead! Give others who read these dialogues the credit to come to their own conclusions. If the facts are wrong, please dispute them, if not, try being helpful!!

FFF - Good plan. If the dollar goes 2:1 it's a wise decision to invest regardless of any training plans!

[Send Clowns]

No we are not at opposite ends, I was agreeing that yours was a worthy aim. I then pointed out that describing WMU as "probably the best training choice available" and implying that integrated courses gave better employment prospects were not in line with that aim.

[Thundercat]

I don't want to get into the usual modular/integrated debate, BUT if you were to believe that airlines held ANY favour for integrated courses, then this should keep the guys arguing modular and the guys arguing integrated happy shouldn't it? You cover all bases - minimize cost and maximise employment potential.

Clearly Send Clowns you do want to get in the same old modular/integrated debate. In my initial post, I actually used the words above ie 'IF you WERE to believe that airlines held ANY favour....' - I never implied or said they did, I was merely repeating a common debate on this site.

In fact, for the record, I don't believe that integrated courses hold any favour with the airlines at the present time and there certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence to show that they do. It is indeed a personal choice. However, those who may of liked to have been in the market for an integrated course and had to look at other options due to the prohibitive cost, now have a real choice. Again, these are my opinions and are not intended to mislead but hopefully people with real knowledge will lend advice....

[PPRuNe Towers]

Bargain or not - don't wind yourselves up into an excited little moist puddle.

Review both pages of this thread. Do it now.

Count the number of direct experiences of this school. If you want to be currency speculators go and do it in the City.

If you want a JAA [f]ATPL find a school with a current reputation and pilots moving through its ranks that are willing to speak.

If they won't speak you are foolish not to assume the worst. The importance of this thread lies in the dearth of information and informers not the posturing and semantics.

Rob Lloyd

[moggie]

Scroggs - as for the "airlines prefer integrated" being cobblers, remember that this is actually the publicly stated policy of BA (although as they are not taking many people at the moment it could be argued that this doesn't count!).

[Send Clowns]

More importantly, when they were taking a few inexperienced, non-sponsored pilots they were accepting modular students ...

[BillieBob]

The most dispassionate (and most experienced) contributors to this thread say that it makes no difference whether one follows the modular or integrated route. All opinion to the contrary apparently comes from contributors with a vested interest, either because they are integrated course providers or because they are trying desperately to justify their own (apparently misguided) expenditure on an integrated course.

Guess which point of view commands the most credibility....

[machonepointone]

I have just read the postings about WMU and I would like to point out one or two things that have been overlooked by some of the contributors.

Thundercat, I can readily accept your wanting to know about WMU these days, but your second posting on the subject was not entirely correct. First of all WMU lost many more than just five flying instructors. The original group just did not have their contracts renewed. This was to save the university the embarrassment of having to come clean with the trumped up charges that had been levied against them. Having done that, there were a further two culls during the course of which several more flying instructors were made redundant. To say that WMU will have got over that in the intervening two years is not exactly true. At the moment there are only three JAA licensed instructors there. One of them is the Head of Training whose only reason for still being there is that his wife wants to finish a nursing course/qualification. The second is the former Standards Instructor who has had his legs kicked out from under him by the current American management and is not therefore a very happy bunny.

At the last count there was a grand total of one, yes just one, JAA student. So, if WMU is so wonderful where are all the rest? My understanding is that the only reason WMU tolerates JAA training is because Battle Creek Unlimited, a large business consortium, invested so much money in the early days (we are talking several million dollars here), that it could be expensive for the university in terms of litigation to pull the plug entirely.

I note that there have been no responses from Presbycusis, the former defendant of the indefensible. Is this because he has also been made redundant as a groundschool instructor or has he finally realised the futility of trying to explain the deliberate demolition of what used to be one of the best flying training organisations going?

In case anyone accuses me of bias in the matter, let me just point out that my sources of information are not only some of the current staff members at WMU. Until a couple of years ago I was employed there and was one of the victims of the original inquisition. I don’t want to go into detail here, but if anyone would like to hear what really happened they are welcome to contact me direct. Perhaps one could argue with some justification that I am biased against WMU, but all I am trying to do is point out that the damage has not been repaired, and that no matter how good the exchange rate, WMU is probably not the place to go to at the moment.

[Jonny]

Thanks for the helpful (yet disappointing!) info machonepointone. At last a contributor to the actual topic of the thread.

And billiebob... haven't you got things the wrong way round? Those expressing a personal interest in an integrated course are the ones saying that it really makes no differences to one's employment prospects whether one follows an integrated or modular route. It is those with the vested interest in a modular route that consistantly get evangelical about modular being the right way to do things or even than it improves employment prospects.

And just for the record Send Clowns (as i've seen you make the same point in several places). BA are still taking low hours Self Sponsored pilots straight from schools (15-20 a year) but purely from the 4 integrated courses (though there is one that they haven't recruited from in 10 years or so!).

Dah... can't believe the thread turned out like this again... actually i can!

Anymore with experience of WMU want to share their knowledge?

[Thundercat]

I've spoken with WMU and they're going to send me further details. Currently there are 9 students (from what I recall) on the JAA course, 2 of which are Brits. Unfortunetely they haven't been drawn to this thread, if at all to PPRUNE. Pity, but it would be nice to hear from someone with recent experience.

History doesn't sound favourable for WMU and I can only hope that the future is more stable. The general consensus seems to be that:

a) WMU have poorly managed and badly looked after previous staff crucial to the success of the JAA syllabus.

b) Although the problems were some 2 years back, the shockwaves will take sometime longer to repair.

c) Regardless of exchange rate benefits, WMU needs to be treated with trepidation as it has been suggested they may be just trying to recoup losses made in previous JAA course investments.

This all paints a rather gloomy picture and I can only hope that WMU or someone connected to it recently can cast a better light. Given the direction of this thread, it would take some stealy nerve to gamble your training money on WMU unless any solid experiance or support for it comes forward giving a strong case otherwise.

So given recent comments, I'm prepared to stand corrected - it sounds like WMU has yet to prove that it could again be "one of the best training choices available". Any further views to back or refute this?...

Thundercat

[PPRuNe Towers]

Tcat - good synopsis, good analysis - especially point b.

You also tried to keep the thread on track whilst others were getting over excited during excursions from the point.

There's a long learning curve for any school to get consistent success for its students. Two years ago WMU blew its JAA training cadre out of the water - whether maliciously or wilfully is an entirely moot point - what is important is that it will take many exam sittings for them to get up to speed again. The present 9 are guinea pigs paying a lot for the priveledge.

There are sadly, allegedly sentient beings who will still take the plunge because the exchange rate excites them. Cost of everything and value of nothing types.

Actually - that's given me an idea for a photo comp! We've never had one of those here before. Let's see - I've got an unused copy of Jepp's IFR Pro simulator as a prize - I think its about £90 quid these days. How about pics of the rattiest aircaft for students and hour builders lured by the cost?

If anyone's interested fire up a new thread and I'll pop in with the details. I think we need to look at it worldwide and there has to be a web or magazine photo to contrast marketing fantasy with creaking, flyblown reality. If we got a good library I'd even pay for a regular ad in the GA mags pointing wannabees to what the aircaft really look like - just like the gazzeteers or 'truth books' travel agents keep under the counter for those in the know

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[Thundercat]

Thank you PT - it's a pity that the story so far is so negative. I'm hoping that someone can still provide some positive light on the future of WMU. Personally I still very much want to talk with WMU to get their side of the story and find out how they intend to move forward. Clearly, with comments as poor as we've seen on this thread going around, it's going to take WMU a good time longer to get back on their feet.

However, this thread has certainly alerted me to some problems I wasn't aware of and will allow me to ask the 'right' questions in order to draw my own conclusions. Thanks to all.

[sloppywmu]

Hello All,
I am a current flight instructor at WMU, on the FAA side. I am a little confused by your comments about the "program" being demolished. From what I understood of it all, the JAA side was actually combined with the FAA side. This was for overall simplification along with the loss of the BA and Emirates contracts. Some JAA instructors obviously had to be laid off because of the dramatic loss of European students. Not to mention the exorbitant salary that they were getting paid, at something like 3 or 4 times what the part time U.S. instructors get. From my knowledge this was not done because of any want to get rid of the JAA side of the program. As far as the school goes, it is a thriving aviation university that is well renowned. Obviously I am biased and probably also trying to defend my expenditure of quite a good sum. But I would still think that WMU is a good school to attend. Especially from what you guys are saying the price is of the schools in Europe. Most of the FAA side students are able to go through the program without spending much over $30,000.

If you have any questions please post, I am anxious to answer any concerns. And I just want to reiterate that WMU is still a good flight school, as far as the flight program in general the school has not lost anything, in fact we are growing at a steady pace.

Sloppy

[machonepointone]

Sloppywmu

While I 100% agree with you that WMU is a thriving concern, I feel that I must point out, if only for the benefit of EUROPEAN customers, that with but one exception all the students are American, or at least university students, undertaking the aviation sciences degree course. Last I heard it was oversubscribed, and rightly so. However, in terms of training for a European licence WMU has all but died the death, as has already been described.

Before anyone leaps on the hint of a frozen ATPL for $30,000, let me just point out that in America the vast majority of Americans already have somewhere to live, unlike European students who will have to pay for food and accommodation for about 13 to 14 months. Also, at the risk of stating the obvious, it is generally cheaper to get from Kalamazoo to Battle Creek than from the UK.

As regards the exorbitant salaries that the expatriate instructors were earning, lets just put them into context here. While I was there, many of the FAA instructors had very few flying hours. I remember several instances whereby a person was a student on Friday and on the following Monday walked in through the doors with four gold bars on their shoulders as an instructor. Many of the junior FAA instructors measured their flying hours in three digits and often their instructional hours in just two (if any at all at the start). The JAA instructors, on the other hand, each had several thousand flying hours both total and instructional. Not only were they vastly more experienced than any FAA instructor, they were also teaching ab initio students to go from zero hours direct to the right hand seat of a commercial airliner, something that not a single FAA instructor was doing the whole time I was there, nor, I suspect, are doing now.

If you are like the majority of young FAA instructors when I was there, you are probably hours building with a view to getting an airline job as soon as possible. I do not blame you for that and I wish you every success. However, ALL the JAA instructors were career instructors and were there on a long term basis (or were until the witch hunt). As an employer, it makes little commercial or financial sense to pay what was frequently a transitory workforce the same kind of salary as a hugely more experienced and permanent group of professional instructors. (By that I am not doubting your professionalism as a pilot or instructor. It is a comparison between those who instruct permanently as a profession as opposed to those who are hours building). That is why there was such a discrepancy in the salaries. Having said that, the expatriate staff members have had their relocation expenses stopped, so they face the cost of moving back to the UK themselves (probably not less than $10000). Also those FAA licensed instructors who worked for the JAA program have had their "exorbitant" salaries cut by around 20%.

[Capt. Manuvar]

Thundercat,
As a fellow wannabe, this is my advice to you. There is an enormous amount of info and 'propaganda', and its hard to find the best deal. As far as Integrated courses are concerned, i don't think they are as 'hot' as they used to be. The new thing is type ratings, i don't personally believe that we should have to pay for them but a lot of people seem to be folowing this route. People prefer to go modular and spend the savings on a type rating. The airlines that prefer to recruit Integrated graduates are not recruiting and will not be in the near future. Those that are doing the bulk of the recruitment prefer typerated pilots.
It is possible to do a modular atpl with £25K, here's a quick breakdown based on minima:
Medical £500
PPL in US £3000
ATPL Ground £3000
night £500
100Hrs PIC (US) £4000
MEP £1500
MEIR(Spain) £5500
CPL(spain) £2000
TOTAL £20000
You'll save about £20k on WMU. WMU is one of the top FAA training institutions and an all-around reputable school but i won't risk £40k on their JAA side based on recent history.

[K2SkyRider]

Capt. Manuvar,

I'm a fellow wannabe currently considering many options.

Interesting that you suggest IR courses in Spain - is that for good weather as well as cheaper course fees? Which schools have you investigated out of interest?

Any advice appreciated regarding US schools, FAA-JAA conversions and ATPL groundschools.

K2