Graphical presentation of NOTAM data
 

Thanks QDM

My own view is that independent developers will get there first, hoever to do the job they need access to the whole of the NOTAM message, including the Q Line, which does not appear in the bulletins that were available in the past, or the current bulletins.

Included in the Q Line are the geographic location and the radius of influence which IMHO are essential to anyone producing a graphical presentation. For example there may be a TRA centred on an airfield, greatly increasing its CTZ for an airshow. You look at the map presentation. See a highlight on the airfield, but you're routing clear of their zone so you don't see it as relevant and blunder straight into the TRA.

I am trying to get us to a position where we have a daily download of an FIR aerodrome briefing and another download of an FIR en-route briefing, with geographic sorting so every airfield can have a standard briefing like the old A1/A8.

I would also like us to have a daily FIR download of the entire NOTAM, including the Q Line. This would enable you to load the information into a third-party software package to produce the presentation you want a la NotamPlot.

There would also be a market for an online service such as AvBrief where they would have live up to the minute data using a leased line into AIS.

Getting AIS/Thales to come up with a graphical presentation is a great idea but as the database is worldwide it's more of a job and likely to require significant development time and cost so I don't think we'll see it in the immediate future. They do read these posts so maybe they'll surprise us!

Mike

mrcross,

One of the links to AIS on your new web page is slightly wrong and it brings up the Institute of Alcohol Studies.

Or maybe that was what you meant :p

WF.

Typos
 

Apologies - my typing fingers think that DNA is an acronym for the National Dyslexia Association, and they are agnostic as well so they're not sure whether Dog really exists either.

mrcross, rustle - fabulous guys - very impressed, and they are lucky you guys have the time for this! I am willing to help in anyway, but think best I can do is report bugs here as I see them...

Cheers,

From Flyer Website;

----------------------------------------------------------------------

AIS website offline

11 - 10 - 2002

If you are having trouble accessing the AIS website today (Friday) that's because it has crashed.

We are told that BAA cut the power to the tower at Heathrow last night and since then the AIS website servers keep falling over every time they are fired up. Engineers from Thales are apparently investigating the problem. In the meantime, anyone requiring Notam or wishing to plan a flight can ring 020 8745 3464.

FLYER Comment
Enough is enough. This farce has got to stop - now.

Flyer Ed Nick Wall

-------------------------------------------------------

Good on you Nick.

Rod

Essential Service?
 

Why on earth have they not provisioned an offsite installation of mirrored servers in an external managed hosting environment (and those associated with the industry will know this is relatively cheap these days!) to provide for high-availability and disaster recovery scenarios? This is normal for essential services... and NATS, as a business built largely on information systems, should understand this.........

AA,

My guess is because they:

a) Don't know what they're bleedin' well doing

and

b) Haven't got the sense to employ an outfit who does

and

c) Can't resist fiddling with something that was working to the satisfaction of its users before they messed about with it


Do I win a prize for the right answer?

NOTAMs
 

The avbrief site does have the NOTAMs as well and it seems that they are testing out a graphical version as well - the data isn't up to date, but presumably it will be at some point.

However, you *can* still get access to the text version - even though it places the north of England in Scotland...

Statement from AIS re site outage
 

Phil Bate, Manager UK AIS sent me the following email on Friday evening (11 Oct). Unfortunately it was to my office email so I didn't get to see it until this morning.

Mike

Mike/Russell,

You will no doubt be aware that the web has been off-line today. This began
last night (Thurs) when the BAA had a programmed power interruption to the
Control Tower. This of course should not have caused any difficulties as
absolutely everything here is protected by back-up generators and UPS.
Although we have a suspicion that an individual UPS may have allowed a 'grey
spike' to encroach, we do not as yet know the exact problem but suffice to
say that there was a difficulty with the 'Replica Server' which as you may
recall lies between the ADIMS database and the web servers, protected by a
firewall on both sides. Having struggled locally for some time to get
things going, the supplier was informed and asked to provide support under
the warranty agreement. They have done this remotely for most of the day
with no success (partly due to the efficiency of the firewalls) and decided
a few minutes ago to call it a day. They are flying a team over early
tomorrow morning and we are also going to be in attendance. NATS has made
it very clear that we cannot run a 24/7 service with this level of
instability and that we must at all costs achieve a stable environment from
now on (which in software term we thought we had done up to last night).

Please can I ask you to post something on the various sites explaining that
we really are trying 110% to sort this out and we apologise for the
interruption of service but we are now in the hands of our supplier (who to
be fair is also showing the fullest commitment). We will be staffed to
provide support to those requiring a briefing on the usual number (020 8745
3464 - If busy try 3450 or Fax. 3453) and ask that pilots also try their
'local' international airport flight briefing unit, who should be able to
supply information from the bulletins (A1/A8 etc. - I've heard of them
before!). We will also be faxing and e-mailing pre-prepared briefs to
clubs/aerodromes requesting them.

I can't tell you just how devastating a blow this is to my staff who were
just beginning to look forward to some stability, a reduction in pressure
and the next phase of development. Instead they are now having to bear some
serious individual abuse, which of course is terribly unfair but I guess
understandable. They will endeavour to maintain their cool and will as
always give the fullest support to our customers. We do record the
telephone lines and will use this if we need to in extreme cases of abuse.
I believe that I have the highest quality staff and I have unfortunately
just recently had to accept a resignation and I don't need more of that as
they are almost impossible to replace.

We will be sending an advisory notice via AFTN and FAX.

On other topics, when I get a minute I will talk to you both about the way
forward as I think that I have identified a route which might interest you
and others, also with the support of our Regulator and SRG.

Update to above, sent on Friday at 21:17

Mike

Mike/Russell,

I have just been informed that our engineers here have found the problem and
fixed it. The Web is stable, updating and operating successfully and we
have put the French team on hold. You might still want to place something
on the forums for me though. I am very grateful to the NATS staff involved
in this, who have demonstrated exceptional commitment and ability. We WILL
get there in the end despite some very testing times and our promise to
provide the best possible service is not a hollow one.

Thanks for your help in this.

Regards,

Phil

This just in from AIS -

============================

There will be an interruption of service both today and tomorrow for changes and upgrades.

Today is system changes and upgrades and tomorrow is the fortnightly AIRAC.

In the future we anticipate that there will be only the two planned outages per month for AIRAC and we will combine the engineering/upgrade elements at that time.

============================

You have been warned :)

Hi all,

Have been away from the forum for a while. Glad to see that progress is being made in talking to NATs re. the website.

Have spoken to Russell and hopefully if we can get a nice straightforward, web-published feed of NOTAM information that will allow me to easily rework NotamPlot into a v2 that will return us to the land of graphical NOTAM viewing!

Ian:)

Best news today :)

Nice one Ian.

Blown my anonymity right out the window ;)

ianfallon said If you can get notamplot working again that would be very good

when can we get more news about this ?

Streetmap: alternative to NOTAMPLOT while we're waiting!
 

I guess we've all got better at plotting LAT/LONG on our maps since we've had to do without Notamplot eh!? But if you want to save a bit of time, and/or double-check your manual plotting, then here's a way to cheat...

The excellent www.streetmap.co.uk site will accept LAT/LONG input - so you can just go there, select Lat/Long, and then enter the coordinates in the appropriate format.

For example, a current NOTAM is:You would have to enter this position into Streetmap as 51:31:38,-1:34:29. Note the use of negative number for West longitude. East longitude would be a positive number.

You then get a small scale map back from Streetmap, highlighting the position entered. Zoom out a couple of steps to a more practical scale, and you will get a results like
this, which is then easy to plot on your ICAO chart with a chinagraph pencil.

So there you go! Still... I'd rather have Notamplot!!!

bpilatus

I suspect that any delay is going to result from the time it takes to get the information made available for download by AIS. Ian is almost certainly going to be able to move a lot faster than they are.

Phil Bate, the manager of UK AIS is aware of Ian's post.

Russell and I recognise that the download is needed and the requirement is in a document that we left them on Tuesday.

If you have a look at http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais/More_NOTAM.htm
you will understand why the download is so important.

AIS have suggested a meeting with us and DAP because Phil does not want to move without DAP being behind the proposal. It's possible that other interested parties within CAA may get involved too.

Due to absence overseas by key people in AIS and DAP the earliest time that the meeting can take place is w/c Monday 4 November. Which gives Russell and I some time to polish up the proposal.

I can tell you that neither AIS nor DAP have raised any objections in principle to what we are suggesting. Getting it implemented is another matter because it is not a feature of the product that AIS have bought so it means going back to the vendor for development.

One of the best things that anyone reading this post can do is write to DAP and AIS/NATS stressing the importance you attach to the raw data download.

DAP is the regulator and AIS is part of NATS so the more united the voice that they hear, the more likely we are to get what we want.

DAP http://www.caa.co.uk/dap/default.asp

NATS contact points at http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/Op...il%2020021.pdf
(AIS are in section D6)

and keep an eye on www.telecall.uk.com/ais - I will be working to update it over the next few days.

Mike

You da man.

Respect!

QDM

bpilatus,

you can get more info about what's happening at:

click here

(BRL, that ain't an advert :) )

Edited to say:

Aye Carumba, in the 2 nanoseconds it took to write the above mrcross and QDM have posted, so now this post looks silly.

DOH!

Guess what - it's down again!
 

As from about 18:30 the site is down. Called the briefing staff and they weren't aware.

They checked with engineers who are "looking into it!"

NATS IT department are responsible for keeping it up.

Mike

At the height of the "Dirty Tricks" war between BA and Virgin, BA were trying to lift the London Eye into position and were having problems.

Virgin hired the Goodyear blimp to fly over the site displaying on its side the message:-

"BA can't keep it up!"

The same appears to apply to NATS IT department.

They got it up again (so to speak) a short while later and it was back in service at 18:50

17:47 GMT: seems OK to me..?

Working fine (well, as advertised) at 1754Z

AIS Website Proposals
 

Please go to http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais/news!.htm
to see the proposals for sorting out the problems at the AIS web site.

These are being distributed widely to interested parties for comment prior to a meeting to be held in mid-November with the AIS regulator at the Directorate of Airspace Policy, CAA.

There is an email address at the end of the document which you can use to inform DAP of your views.

Mike

BTW the outage last night lasted about 20 mins and AIS have confirmed that they think it was due to loading the AIRAC update again (same thing happened last time)

URL got a bit distorted try this

Wanted this back on page one :)

More news being posted to www.telecall.uk.com/ais (as soon as I get off PPRuNe ;) )

Keep your comments coming - we have amassed a huge amount of feedback, but the more the better...

Cheers

rustle, mrcross - very impressed with the paper you guys wrote. Nothing to add or change. Keep at it!

AIS Meeting
 

Hi Folks

Another update - things are moving.

A meeting has been provisionally arranged for 15 November. The attendees are likely to include AIS, their regulator from the CAA, other interested parties from the CAA, a representative from the BGA and Russell and myself.

The regulator is John Gentlemean, Manager, Aeronautical Charts and Data at the CAA Directorate of Airspace Policy.

He has agreeed that the email address [email protected] can be used for you to make representations and has already received a number of mails as a result of our putting the address on our proposals, which can be found at
http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais/propo...the_future.htm

SORRY! This forum doesn't like long URL's, try http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais instead. Mike

Please make your voice heard by sending an email. Don't get upset if you don't get a response, there are likely to be too many to reply to individually but they will all be taken into account.

If you support our proposal please say so but it is equally important for you to raise your voice if you disagree with what we are suggesting.

AIS and the CAA have come forward and demonstrated that they are ready and willing to listen to your views and deserve credit for doing so. Please give them a constructive response.

Mike

Well done guys - I have sent an email to the regulator in support of your proposal, and urge others to do so as well - it took me about 2 minutes.

Best,

I have posted the message on gliding forums, as well as sent an email to John Gentleman. Pleased to see "a BGA representative" will be at the meeting (not me).

Sadly I was one of the unlucky pilots who suffered the "missing NOTAM" problem during the early days, and as a result I very nearly bimbled through the middle of an airshow, save for an alert ATController. That event, exacerbated by my very low level of experience, resulted in my not flying at all for nearly two months, and even now I get a case of the jitters when I plan a flight away from my home airfield. I'm hoping that will pass given time, and I plan to get at IMC rating early next year to rebuild my confidence somewhat.

My case may be an extreme one, but since the removal of the old A1/A8 bulletins and the consequent effect on tools such as NOTAMPlot and NotamPro, I have noticed that the number of pilots I know who check NOTAMs regularly has fallen alarmingly. Most now complain that it is too hard, too slow or just too awkward, and very few bother to try. It is no longer possible for the flying club I am a member of to print out a concise list of NOTAMs for the noticeboard, nor is it quick and easy to get a chart showing "areas of interest" in the local flying area. Even some of the most experienced and cautious pilots I know have been known not to bother any more, with the obvious attendant risks.

Most pilots previously regarded NOTAMs as a necessary evil, now, sadly, they are regarded by many as just evil and no longer necessary. It will take some time to reverse this, and in the meantime there is an increased risk of airspace infringements and other incidents which could have been avoided. Technology will continue to progress, but hopefully future progress will be tempered by the lessons learnt in the last few months, and the changes will be managed with a more sympathetic eye for those who use the service(s) being "upgraded".

I must offer a huge "thank-you" to all of the people who have been trying to improve the current situation, especially Mike Cross, Russell Howton, Ian Fallon and the all of the people behind the scenes in NATS, the CAA, FlyOnTrack, Flyer, ... the list goes on and on. I hope that all your efforts will quickly provide all pilots with a system which NATS can be proud of. To that end I have added my support to Mike and Russell's list of suggestions through the [email protected] email address - have you?

Cheers,

MD

It's not foolproof but I have reverted to the Calendar section of Pilot magazine to find out where the airshows are when I am planning to fly.

The NOTAM situation is a fiasco and heads should roll for this situation.

Mr John Gentleman

Sir

I am one of the GA pilots adversley affected by the Notam fiasco. I was also the author of the Times letter.

I note that you are quoted as being a PPL who has found the current narrow route briefing "usable". Whilst I agree that some of the more outrageous defects have been removed from the site, I cannot agree with your quoted judgement in this case. In my opinion, the site in it's present form creates a sufficient obstacle in the path of pilots wishing to obtain Notams before flight that many flights are in practice conducted without briefing.

As the owner of a software company, I also believe that there are significant issues about whether an interactive web site can EVER provide the reliability, performance, accuracy and usability that is essential in this application. Nats appear to have bought in to a 'consumer quality' product, but even if they matched the IT investment of say, Avis car rental, I doubt that their IT provider would be willing to financially underwrite the safety of flight exposures created as a result.

The idea behind the interactive web site is entirely laudable. However, the reality is what those who employ programmers sometimes refer to as the 90/10 rule: 10% of the effort yields 90% of the result, but to get the last 10% - well, you can guess. If the project is unsuccessful, well, no problem. But if users actually come on line, then is that last 10% that matters.

The real problem with web sites is success - the more users, the bigger the problems and the more unfamiliar the territory. Solve one set of problems and you just get more users. It's a virtuous circle that burns you alive! Worse, I don't belive the current site has even reached the 90% mark yet, while in a safety critical application like this we need better integrity than most commercial applications.

I fully endorse the initiative being persued by Michael Cross and Russell Howton.

However, I suggest that in order to properly address this issue the following steps are needed:

1) Re-instate the manual A1/A8 bulletins temporarily, but immediately - re-hire the personnel if needed.
2) Suspend development of the web site until it is established that it is actually possible to provide a satisfactory service using this technology. Classify the existing site as 'evaluation only - not for use in flight planning' and refer users to the manual A1/A8.
3) Put every effort into providing the information feed specified by Mike and Russell. I predict that there will be a furious competition amongst programmer/pilots to develop the must usuable interpretive software.

Please make no mistake - lives are being put at risk every day. A computer literate friend, unable to obtain Notam, flew to xxxx only to find the into wind runway closed. Vectored to the servicable runway, he conducted a cross wind landing well into his, and the aircraft's, limitations. If he had crashed, it would have been his fault. But if he had had the Notam, he would have gone somewhere else.

Working together, we are in sight of a useful objective - provision of Notam information that can be used by every pilot without excuse for the first time in UK aviation history. For this, graphical rendition and local filtering are essential. The pilot community is offering this escape route to Nats, and to CAA, 'on a plate'. In return, we must have immediate restoration of the manual A1/A8 bulletins without prevarication, so that no more flights are conducted without briefing when one is available.

Yours faithfully

David Viewing

(Copies of this letter posted to relevant forums)

nice letter David but didn't someone say that the A1 and A8 stuff was not available any more?

I hope the meeting in November isn't a waste of time because what do we do then:confused:

does this regluator have any teeth or is this just CAA trying too sound clever before EASA makes them all redundant

what about the software company - are they going to bother sending someone to this meeting or are they going to do a NATS and not bother with GA :(

david,

Just to clarify (if I may) one thing:

These are still produced -- they are not published as a download from the web though.

I asked for these to be reinstated during my first meeting on September 20th.

Hope that answers your first point as well, bpilatus -- as for the other issues you have mentioned:

We obviously trust that the meeting on November 15th is not a "waste of time" as well!

It's probably worth mentioning that the guys at AIS have bent over backwards to assist and answer questions, but the real problems with NOTAM dissemination today is more to do with the technology...

Web sites falling over repeatedly is nothing to do with the team that put together PIBs or collate NOTAMs - it is totally the responsibility of NATS IS/IT and/or Thales. Let us hope they have someone at the meeting to address this issue.

Writing queries against a database is nowt to do with the team that put together PIBs or collate NOTAMs - it is totally the responsibility of NATS IS/IT and/or Thales. Let us hope they have someone at the meeting to address this issue.

Appallingly slow (web) response times have nothing to do with the team that put together PIBs or collate NOTAMs - it is totally the responsibility of NATS IS/IT and/or Thales. Let us hope they have someone at the meeting to address this issue.

Inability to delete old route briefings, change/update passwords or UK/Europe registration details (etc) have nothing to do with the team that put together PIBs or collate NOTAMs - it is totally the responsibility of NATS IS/IT and/or Thales. Let us hope they have someone at the meeting to address this issue.

Publication of raw data-downloads (including Q-Line info) and other information that would enable NotamPlot/Pro and their ilk to function have nothing to do with the team that put together PIBs or collate NOTAMs - it is totally the responsibility of NATS IS/IT and/or Thales. Let us hope they have someone at the meeting to address this issue.

I sense a pattern forming ;)

Cannot comment about the regulator's role - guess we'll know after 15th November.

We have emailed Thales. They have (quite rightly) said that their relationship is with NATS not us (as users) so anything they need to do must come from an instruction from NATS.

AIS
 

For anyone wanting to see more discussion on this subject I have updated

http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais/forums.htm

to include links to all the forums I could find. If you know any more please use the link on that page to let me know where they are.

Mike

Mike / Russell

I sense that the direction of your discussions with AIS is increasingly pointing to IT issues.

Can I ask what contact you have had with AIS's IT provider, who the provider actually is, and what response you have had so far?

Keep up the good work!

David

AIS
 

David:-

My understanding is:-

The software was supplied by Thales Information Systems.

Day to day processing of NOTAM is carried out by AIS at Heathrow. AIS know all about NOTAM but do not have the knowledge or ability to deal with technical issues such as managing the delivery systems or maintaining the hardware. For this they are reliant on NATS.

Most of my contacts have been with Phil Bate, Manager UK AIS, and his staff. They have been very open, helpful and informative, but cannot speak at a technical level with regard to the delivery system.

As Russell has said, we have passed on our proposals to Thales IS and I know that they are monitoring the feedback in the forums. However they decline to enter into discussion with us because it would breach the confidentiality of their contract with NATS. I fully respect that position.

The person introduced to Russell as the Project Manager for the IT side is Alan Burrill of NATS Airport Services. Unfortunately Alan will not communicate with us on a technical level either. I understand that Alan does not have the AIS website as his primary responsibility.

To be fair to AIS, Phil Bate has been away from his office since our suggestions were delivered and has therefore not been in a position to respond. He should be back in the next day or so.

The lack of engagement on a technical level does worry me and I have passed my concerns on to John Gentleman, Manager Aeronautical Charts and Data at DAP and also to Phil Roberts, Assistant Director Airspace Policy 1 also at DAP. Contact details for both of these gentlemen are published by the CAA in CAP 723 (Directory Guide) which can be found at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP723.pdf

I have also passed my concerns on to Roger Budgen, Head ATO Customer & External Relations at NATS. He is listed, together with his contact details in the NATS Operations Contact Guide for Customers which can be found at http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/Op...il%2020021.pdf

The worry is that we have had no technical feedback at all from NATS. No questions have been asked about our suggestions and no-one has said whether they might be technically flawed, easy, or difficult. All of which leaves us wondering whether the meeting on the 15th will result in any action or merely a thank you and an assurance that our proposals will be borne in mind for the future development of the site.

We do have a couple of weeks left before the meeting and now that Phil is back I hope we will see some signs of movement towards an action plan. It will be a very poor result indeed if three months after the site went live we are still left in limbo.

Hope this answers your question.

Mike

well it could have answered Davids question but it raised more questions for me.

Why won't the IT people tell you if the proposals can be applied?

If they cannot be applied, where does that leave the users?

are these the same IT gurus who set up swanick?

Why if Thales see this forum has nothing been done. If my company got such bad publicity I would want it fixed now not in three months time.

I reckon this is just stalling. When you have your meeting NATS will tell you that it cannot be done or they cannot afford it or some other garbage and they could have told us already.

and my other question from before. what happens if nothing happens after your meeting? What next?

they have had too much time to think of excuses we should have kept pressure on instead of them seeing no comments here since you guys started your meetings.

AIS
 

Hi Bpilatus

>>Why won't the IT people tell you if the proposals can be applied?

Assuming that's not a rhetorical question :-) .....

I didn't say they wouldn't tell us, just that they hadn't commented on our proposals. The information on feasibility and costs would have to come from Thales IS, which would mean AIS have to ask Thales IS in order to get the answer. I don't know whether AIS have done so yet but hope that they will have the information in time to provide an informed response at the meeting on 15 Nov.

>>If they cannot be applied, where does that leave the users?

I think it unlikely that the proposals CANNOT be applied. Their application might be seen as too expensive to implement or undesirable on policy grounds, in which case we would be back where we started.

>>are these the same IT gurus who set up swanick?

As far as I am aware Thales IS were not involved with Swanwick. I believe the main software contractor was Lockheed Martin. I have no way of knowing whether any of the individuals working within NATS were involved with Swanwick. However I suspect it would be fair to say that NATS was the customer in both projects.

>>Why if Thales see this forum has nothing been done. If my company got such bad publicity I would want it fixed now not in three months time.

So would I!
[email protected] would probably be a good place to address this query, quoting the product name ANAIS and naming the UK AIS website. If enough of us asked we might get a statement.

I suspect also that NATS expected the implementation to be a lot easier than it has been and it may be that the resources they allocated are overstretched as a result.


>>I reckon this is just stalling. When you have your meeting NATS will tell you that it cannot be done or they cannot afford it or some other garbage and they could have told us already.

I've now had the opportunity to speak to Phil Bate, who has assured me that there will be positive proposals at the meeting and that we can expect attendance from NATS senior management.


>>and my other question from before. what happens if nothing happens after your meeting? What next?

I suspect an all-out blitz on the media and MP's with attendant bad publicity for NATS, the CAA and Thales IS. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

>>they have had too much time to think of excuses we should have kept pressure on instead of them seeing no comments here since you guys started your meetings.

We have been trying to keep the pressure on, hence my postings asking people to make their views heard by the relevant people.
I know a lot of people have already e-mailed [email protected] with their views - please keep it up.
Keeping the debate alive on the forums is very important too, the more people who post the better.

Many thanks for your input

Mike

Availability of web site
 

I disagree with David's comments about a web based application being too unreliable to deliver NOTAM information.

Think of the web based systems which, for example, transact billions of dollars worth of securities on a daily basis for the world's investment banks - do you think they'd do this if it couldn't be made reliable enough (for reasonable cost)?

Having said all that, the AIS web site has some way to go. I've been monitoring it (automatically) for 48 hours now and in that time it has been available only 67% of the time. In particular it was completely unavailable for over 7 hours starting at 22:51 last night.

mrcross I have read all you have said but I think the all out blitz on the media should have started before now. it is three months gone and nothing is any better for the users.

The CAA, NATS, the regulator, Thales should all hang there head in shame at this joke of a system

and still no comment from anyone except you guys which makes me mad. why don't people understand that users want information about when it will be better NOW?

I have sent email to vfrcharts but got only a standard answer which must be automatic?

I think CAA don't bother anymore with GA as I said before because they will not be around much soon when EASA is here in the UK.

I will make a post about what to do and see if its only me thinking that NATS should be worried about users and not money for once.


drauk how do you measure this availability? do you ping the web or what do you do? I want some better information to give to my politician and maybe something might happen sooner?