:mad: Spent a total of 8 hours trying to get NOTAMs this weekend. The new site continuously crashed. When I was finally able to do anything, I found the information totally useless for gliding. This system is totally unable to cope with weekend demand.

When setting a cross country task, it is normal to plot those NOTAMs in the planned task area on the map and then set a task avoiding them - notamplot was great for this.

According to the very hastled person I spoke to, our best option is to request a series of overlapping "narrow" routes running north/south giving a 99 mile corridor. Then try to locate the information that is required, plot this manually (again) and then set a task.

The new system was meant to provide the required information for all involved in aviation - it certainly fails miserably for gliding - which has been recognised, and by the comments here and elsewhere, it seems to be failing for many other forms of aviation. The other reason I was given was that it was very costly to produce the A1/A8 and they are trying to cut costs - Sadly, this was resulted in a masive reduction in safety for all.

Rustle:



I've posted the NATS reply to one pilot on our website

http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/comm.asp

Look under "New AIS Service" to see it

I have heard that someone filed an MOR. What do you think, many more might help?

The other NOTAM thread currently running refers to the ability to get UK Notams from the FAA:
https://www.notams.faa.gov/
You then enter EGTT for London FIR.

Is this list exhaustive?

Is it possible that Notamplot could be reconfigured to this source?

Does this provide the ability to bypass the new AIS system?

Thank you!

All Notam Plot needs is the data in a text format. Surely this must still exist for flying clubs etc who are not online.

All NATS have to do is have a page with the docs in the old format somewhere accessable on thier web site. It is very easy to repoint Notam Plot to another web page.

Saying this, if anybody knows of a web site that has the info in text format. Can you please mention it. Problem solved

I don't know if Ian Fallon ( creator of Notam Plot ) reads these, but if not, I'm willing to have a go at converting the Notam text to something the software can use.

Sadly not - some time ago, our club paid subscription to receive NOTAMs by post was terminated by NATS and we were told we had to use the online version (for free)

The FAA web site has the info in text format, but not the same format as AIS used to present their bulletins in, so NOTAMPlot will not work. I've tried pasting the FAA report and raw formatted data into a text file and having NOTAMPlot process the tet file, with no success.

It should be possible for Ian to change NOTAMPlot to work from the FAA RAW format relatively easily, as the RAW format is very well structured. Let's hope he does so.

I'm going to ruin someone's chips again :p

The LAT/LONG info that NotamPlot requires used to be input by hand.

To cut costs, NATS no longer do this where there is an ICAO code or name of area (danger areas activated by NOTAM etc.)

Obviously the web-redesign was free ;)

Because the state of origin -- UK (NATS) in this case -- provide the NOTAM info to other AIS agencies it won't be there either.

Draw your own conclusions.

editied because I forgot to mention the ICAO and DA bit.

The A1 and A8 are still available on the "MARS" system so there is no reason why they can't be made available on the web.

Flap40,

Pardon my ignorance, but what is this "MARS" system, and who has access to it?

It is the NATS supplied weather and notam (old text based mono screen probably running DOS) system that crews/ handling agents use at most(all?) BAA airports plus a few others eg Jersey.
So if they can supply the A1/A8 to this system then why can't they put them on the web???????

F40,

Thanks...

And you're sure those users are still getting this post 19/08/2002??

Got any contacts I can get recently dated copies of A1/A8 from?

Puts the cost/benefit thing in a whole new perspective if so (as well as underlining the BS we've heard so far from NATS)

Yes. I checked last Sunday and I'll check again in the morning.

Thanks very much :)

It is surprising we have not had a response from NATS on this forum. Any NATS people out there?

Come on guys, if my organisation was taking this much flack I would want to put my side and explain to the users, what I was going to do to get out of the mess.

Rod1

I received a reply to my E-mail: "Thanks for your comments, they have been taken into consideration". Short and sweet, but at least the mail is being read and hopefully the message is getting through. Iit would be nice if someone would comment.

Ah, reading www.flyontrack.co.uk, there's this:

:) Hi all, finally got around to subscribing to PPRUNE as well as the Flyer list.

Firstly thanks for all the positive messages about NotamPlot - I'm glad you all found it useful.

I'm currently investigating several avenues I could take with NP in order to regain a graphical plot of NOTAMs at least similar to what we had previously.

Will keep you posted ...

Ian :D

Hi Ian

Thanks for NotamPlot, hope it doesn't turn out to be "Thanks for the memory" ;)

Evo 7 must have been poised as I posted the AIS reply on our website at www.flyontrack.co.uk where there's more comment on this and other ideas to reduce airspace infringements. By the time I looked here he'd lifted it!!

Here's the rest of it:

I've just spoken to the manager of the new AIS website by phone and have invited him to have a look here and at Pprune for feedback, and hopefully for a response.

I did put forward many of your observations, and they are working to keep up with the steady flow of complaints and enquiries coming in. They had 1400 e-mails to work through as we were speaking.

Apparently the new programme is a commercial product (in use elsewhere) which was upgraded at 0900 this morning when they took it offline for 4 minutes to incorporate some fixes in reponse to user feedback.

I trust in due course that we will receive a direct response from AIS. In the meantime, please keep your comments coming as they are taking note! (Endquote)

So there you have it !

Flyontrack, (or NATS if you're there ;) )

Any truth in the rumour that this commercial product you mentioned is from Thales? Part of the same organisation who bring us Aerad?

Not sure Rustle - we didn't get into that detail.

I was more interested in getting them to look at the comments on flyontrack.co.uk and here to see what was being said and hopefully reply to it.

In the absence of anything else so far I thought it might help to share the reply I got !

We'll keep trying!!

Well, Ive seen it all! This post makes 60 on the subject of new NOTAM procedures. I only hope to God someone at NATS takes note of what THE CUSTOMERS are saying. Blue Robin made the point on the 23rd - Any PILOTS involved in this bag of of bones?
Also Rotor on the On Track website. Keef, you are too kind - It might be a good idea but hardly well thought out!

Whoever said it was almost certainly a result of having to cut costs, hit the nail on the head. I bet some Herbert at West Drayton or Heathrow or wherever, is really looking forward to his promotion on having saved NATS a couple of thousand quid.

I am not going to plow the same furrow - you've all made the point very eloquently, Not enough Beta testing, no parallel issue for a few weeks to get it right. I personally found the long reply from NATS mentioned here, and reproduced by one of the On Track guys extremely cavalier and insulting to our intelligence. It really was a case of "This is what you are getting - all the info is there if you look for it and filter out what you don't need. Take it or leave it."

So what do we do about it. Bravo AC-DC! Whack in MORs if you really think it's dangerous. Write those letters and e-mails.
Don't let it be yet another case of "apathy rules" . Believe me if you shout loud enough - they'll hear. Get on the On Track website, perhaps a little bit out of their remit, but I understand they do have the collective ears of some of the CAA bods in General Aviation.

Having got all that off my chest, I'm going to have a beer! Mutter, Mutter, Mutter.

Thanks BOF.

I know of one pilot who has already filed a Mandatory Occurrence Report (MOR) to the CAA to say that Safety Standards have been reduced by the new NOTAM system, and I can only agree that this will gain immediate attention.

Apart from that, letting rip here and at www.flyontrack.co.uk reaches a surprisingly large audience!!

Whatever method you choose, just keep at it and the system will improve. The final version - once you've all had your desires met -should be worth striving for and be safer for everyone.

Remember the A1/A8 we used to get from AIS which enabled NotamPlot to work?

Then we learned they were not available anymore, "to save costs"?

Then Flap40 said they were available.

Quite correct.

They are, and I have today's. Produced by AIS! Complete with all LAT/LONG data.

So we now have a situation where NATS is deliberately not supplying us, the users, with data to enable us to flight plan safely, whilst continuing to peddle us their useless replacement.

I ask again:

Is AIS-site MOR-able?

FlyOnTrack, I will cross-post this to your site ;)

Rustle.

The pilot I spoke to said he was going to draw attention to his view of reduced safety standard through submitting a normal MOR to the CAA.

I'm not a CAA employee but I'm aware that MORs can be used by anyone concerned with aviation to highlight reduced safety or to put forward any safety related suggestion, and they are keen to hear any ideas from the cockpit.

The rather formal "Mandatory Occurrence Report" title tends to put people off using MOR unless they are forced to - but it shouldn't. (Most airlines use ASR "Air Safety Reports" equivalent to encourage free reporting)

If you want a reply to your MOR make sure you ask for one!

The following image is one page of the A8 Bulletin from Wednesday 28/8/2002.

Apparently they haven't been available since the 19/8/2002.

Hmmm. Any comments NATS? :confused:

http://www.artifaxsoftware.com/files/a8.jpg

As a matter of interest, how long does it take to register at the new site? I've been waiting for 3 days now for response.

WHC, you may not get a response ever.

Suggest you try your login again - mine suddenly started working, but I was never advised it had been activated.

I too am very concerned about this. I am actually concerned about conflicting with a NOTAM that I have missed because of the difficulties with this 'upgraded' site. As a professional pilot I would subsequently get my backside kicked by the CAA even though they have a disclaimer on the site pages to cover themselves.

There is a similar thread on 'Rotorheads'.

Everyone with a complaint - PLEASE email NATS and tell them about it.

If we don't all do this, it will become too late and we'll be stuck with it.

The contact link is on the NATS site. :(

Had my PPL skills test today, and trying to read NOTAMs during pre-flight was 'interesting'. Fortunately my examiner couldn't get the bastard system from hell to work either, so we agreed that we had done the best we could.... :rolleyes:

Evo7

So let me get this strait. You took your skill test, with an examiner, and neither of you could access any NOTAMS, so you said “we did our best” and went anyway!! I think the vast majority of PPL’s have probably given up as well.

The frustrating thing is that NATS are going to get away with it by simply ignoring us. Our only hope of getting the system changed is the aviation press, and that is a long shot.

Hope you passed by the way.

Rod

Sorry - I wasn't very clear. We could access them, but couldn't get any sort of route filtering to work and in the end we had to wade through 36 pages of randomly-ordered London-FIR NOTAMs in the pre-flight and just hope we didn't miss anything. I spent most of my flight-planning hour fighting that damn thing.. :mad: ... but I passed :)

I beat the examiner 2-1 on useful NOTAMs - we both spotted one about Portsmouth, but I also managed to find out that Farnborough was SSR-only yesterday (hidden on page 7 of a EGHR -> EGTB route after all sorts of crap about Welsh NDBs and North Sea oilrigs).

I wouldn't mind this damn system so much if it could at least put the useful ones first. If we must have a complete area briefing, why can they not do something like putting the NOTAMs in order of distance from a named aerodrome? Too simple, I guess....

Evo7,

They are sorted by "type", then alphabetically by ICAO :(
(Useful isn't it)

Old system:

Know Lat/Long area you are going to fly in, get relevant NOTAMs by Lat/Long (they were grouped by Lat/Long), modify route as necessary, fly.

New system:

Know area you want to fly in, wade through pages of irrelevant cr@p - missing things buried in the noise, hope and pray that the relevant stuff is actually included (often it isn't), fly.

NB: This assumes you can actually log-in, it doesn't crash 3 times, and your printer has a ready supply of rainforest.

One of the other undesirable side effects of this garbage is the additional "tension" when flying -- no longer do you have all the command information you require.

All-in-all a complete fiasco, and still nothing from NATS by way of apology for the "service", comments on when it's likely to get better, nothing.

And there was me thinking it was random... :)

There was a suggestion that Goodwood should hold a sweepstake to guess the number of people busting the NOTAMed TRA during the revival weekend :(

Has anyone had a satisfactory response as to why the old A1/A8 notams are still available on the MARS system but not available to us?
And why NATS claimed that A1/A8 didn't exist anymore?

Evo7,

The contents may be random, the sorting is by ICAO ;)


BBDO,

Negative on both counts.

I have asked and I know others have asked.

I think they are on auto-pilot and have gone to sleep :p

In a competitive environment someone would have had to say something by now.

Have a read of the comments on www.flyontrack.co.uk if you haven't done so already.

Having spoken to an Editor or two, the aviation press is on the case. Should see some results in the next few weeks.

There are some people even NATS cannot ignore.

It will be interesting to see the "spin" they use.

Rod

Very interesting. I emailed them yesterday at about 0930. Got a reply about 2 hours later. I simply asked them to read the link, register here and reply on this forum to sort of settle us all down a bit. Looks like an automated reply that i got back.........
Thankyou for your feedback. AIS has acknowledged receipt of the feedback.It
maybe the case that some have been missed and others duplicated. I attach a
user guide which has already gone out to some individuals.

Regards

AIS

Attached was a user guide(!) in Adobe format........ :rolleyes:

I shouldn't say this but i will... the words chocolate fireguard come to mind......

BRL,

There's a NATS Forum but I can't post in there to send the link to this thread...

Can you? Maybe someone reading in there can shed some light on this appalling mess.

Rustle, I can sort that out. :)

It would be a bit better if they had the bottle to come on-line and admit they got it wrong and its going to be sorted out soon but they havn't even got the decency to do that :mad: