Okay, now I am REALLY p'd off with this.

Read this: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/image/N...11-09-2002.pdf

What a bunch of arrogant so'n'so's they are...

MOR AIS, fax CAA, ring your MP, fax the newspapers/TV/Radio anyone who will listen and understand the problem!

How are the GA community supposed to take these jokers seriously??

Ridiculous

Well that makes me feel really warm.

I'm sticking to circuits. much safer.
Walt,,

P.S. What if there is a NOTAM for my home airport? DOH!:p

Making it work...
 

The NATS statement is signed "MANAGER" - why not give their names, like any other commercial organistion does?

I think that the outages are unforgiveable, and the way in which the transition from the old system has been handled was, at best, amateurish from the end user perspective.

Having said all that though, I think I am coming to grips with the system. I've been able to obtain relevant NOTAMs for planned my flight to Blackpool this Saturday using the "narrow route" function, and while there was some extraneous stuff in the resulant print-out (as before), I have been able to find the relevant stuff including a PJE, a couple of Air Displays and some Kite Flying on or near to my track, as well as several relevant navaid outages etc.

But have I got all the NOTAMs? Before we could tell for sure as by reading A1 and A8 you knew you had all of them... This is a weakness in the new system, so I've saved a copy of the output into a text file for safety sake - in case I blunder into something that was not mentioned in the report generated and need to defend myself.

Anyway, I am now starting to think that we will get used to the new system - even though its not as useful or as good from our perspective as the previous system, and requires that we become accustomed to its weaknesses. But I suppose that we will learn how to make it work for us - we're smart people after all :).

This is not to excuse the failings I've mentioned above, nor my ongoing concerns over the system outages we've been seeing over recent days, but what's done is done...

I have just received a printout of 34 pages of Notams, for a flight that crosses 3 FIR's. Then I happened upon a part of the NATS site that gives responsibilities in that "organisation" - possibly a misue of the word.

The manager of AIS is one Phil Bate (presumably know to his friends and servants as Master !).

His e-mail address is [email protected].

I guess he might just be receiving an abnormally high load of e-mails from now on!

Skua

Action needed
 

Can I ask you please to take a look at the post on this subject at http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/comm.asp
dated 12/9/2002 at 12:46

This post is signed by the three pilots running the OnTrack project on behalf of the CAA and proposes action that we can take in order to force improvements.

Mike

Thanks Mike - I was just logging on to make the invitation to any of you who want to use the system properly to make your voice heard.

NATS must listen to you, their Customers and incorporate the improvements being demanded on Safety grounds alone, and we give practical advice on how this can be achieved.

It's at: http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/comm.asp

While you're visiting the site, please take time to look around the home page and let us have any ideas or suggestions you may have on reducing airspace infringements........... That's our real aim, but we have provided a useful forum for highlighting the AIS problems, which is fine by us - we hope it all helps.

After a couple of hours trying to submit my wife's tax return on the inland revenue's website the AIS Notam pages suddenly don't seem so bad... :rolleyes: :)

Evo,

Even in today's economy I don't think the death penalty applies if you cannot file IR (Inland Revenue) stuff online...

Still comparable?

Evo

The best advice I had was "Don't even bother trying with the Inland Revenue online submission."

I did try, nevertheless, and it proved to be a waste of a half an hour or more of good core lifetime.

Do the paper one, and post it - you've got to get it all together on paper anyway, to be sure you're happy with all the details.

Anyway, as soon as you need any of the "extra forms", you find they don't have them yet so it's back to the paper form.

Meanwhile - I've been able to get into the AIS site every time I've tried this past two days!

Keef said:I think they may have replaced the "Commodore 64" back end with a 386DX...

Either that or it can cope when there's only you online ;)

Sadly, nothing to add. Just wanted to keep this thread up the top as its too important to let it disappear

Going against the grain somewhat, can I just say that I've had no problems at all with the site, nor with getting NOTAMS sorted out for whenever I've wanted to go flying, but I did have to spend an hour jotting down the ICAO codes for every one of the airfields I was going anywhere near 'cos just putting in the name would be far too easy, wouldn't it....

Continuing the positive theme...

Having spent a large part of yesterday (Friday 20/9) with AIS I think things are going to get better, and quite soon.

I'm just putting together some "words" around our discussions yesterday, and when I have done so will post them here...

Have now written some "words" about my visit with AIS on Friday.

I have posted them on PPL/IR website.

http://www.pplir.org

Thanks for your efforts Rustle.
Was anything mentioned with regard to Notamplot or a similar capability to plot Notams on a map for easy visual reference?

Yes, rustle, thanks for your efforts, but as far as I am concerned the new system has effectively disabled the only truly useable means of accessing NOTAM info -- Notamplot. What are they doing to either:

a) Provide an interface as good.

b) Restore the information feed so Notamplot functions once more.

QDM

Rustle

Can only echo QDM and also gratitude for your efforts. I am persevering with the new site and experience is helping illicit the information I need but I know of people flying without checking the notams first. Crazy I know, but a fact of life post-Notamplot.

-bcfc

Re NotamPlot:

I think we realistically couldn't expect AIS to comment favourably or otherwise about NotamPlot: if they said it was good it becomes an endorsement, and if they said anything negative that becomes a problem too - so saying nothing seems sensible...

Some perspective:

The A1/A8 data via Internet became available Q1/1998.

NotamPlot became available Q1/2002.

It's probably fair to say that enhancements and "value-add" will happen much quicker now, post NotamPlot, than the 4 years it took prior to NotamPlot because there is so obviously a market for such enhancements.

Whether or not these are from AIS or others I wouldn't like to guess.

I know Ian (of NotamPlot fame not fortune) is looking into this even as I write.

To my mind there are two "action lists":

Phase I - must have:

Sorting by Lat/Long, better communication about changes, perhaps a structured "transition" period, better "POH" for the site etc.

then,

Phase II - nice to have:

Graphical representation of NOTAM data, WAP availability etc.

There are a myriad extras that could be done, but my thinking would be make sure Phase I is correct prior to embarking on Phase II.

QDM, to answer your question more directly, I think if a transition period was to occur that would enable you to use the tool you are comfortable with whilst enabling them (or a.another) to develop new tools you would be comfortable with.

Sort of a win-win.

I have asked :)

There have been some good changes made to the site.

More information available from the front (login) page.

Worth another look :)

G'day rustle, looks pretty much the same..? What am I missing? Are you referring to the new FAQ's? Still a bit slow...

But on the positive side, I reiterate my previous comments and confirm that having used it a few times in anger I now feel I am able to get what I need from it using the Narrow route briefing... its probably not as bad as it seemed at first!

Why not lat / long
 

Hello Rustle,

In your excellent article about your visit to AIS, you said that NATS were concerned that if they listed them lat/long then pilots would only look at the lat/long that they were flying in.

Errr - at great risk of sounding foolish - isn't that the whole point of listing them lat/long?

I suppose that means that graphical representations are equally bad as you are only likely to look where you are flying.

I must be missing something here...

(Not having a pop at you - just would like to understand this better)

I think what most of us would like is a "feed" of the information to be made available to others. This would allow people to get Notampro and other similar programs working.

The basic operation of the "new" AIS site is text based. It is very similar to the sort of stuff supplied with the early IBM PC's back in 1982/83. NATS are not programmers, and boy does it show. If they concentrated on getting the info out and left others to make it understandable all our problems would go away in a mater of weeks. Nats would then not have the CAA hitting them over the head, and would not have to invest hundreds of thousands of pounds on trying to catch up on the last 20 years of Graphical User Interfaces and colour maps indicating exactly what we need to know in next to no time.

The frustrating thing is it was all available, virtually free of charge. With a tiny amount of planning they could have arranged for the feed to coincide with the new site and we could have carried on using our favourite programs as if nothing had happened. Such a feed, by the way, could be entirely automatic, and would cost next to nothing to set up.

Rod1

Another AIS Visit 3 Oct
 

Having stuck my head above the parapet once too often I have now been invited like Russell to visit AIS at Heathrow on 3 Oct.

I have been corresponding with Russell to co-ordinate our approach.

I am a 200+ Hr PPL flying a Luscombe out of Popham, the avionics of which consist of a single COM. Just the sort of person who might wander where he shouldn't and at whom NOTAM are aimed.

I have a certain amount of knowledge of databases, web design and quality systems and am preparing a list of discussion points which currently include:-

The need for a printable area bulletin that can be put up on a notice board and used by a pilot at an airfield. It needs to be organised in such a way that you don't need a computer to extract the information.

The desirability of making the raw data available in a form that allow third party developers to produce products like NotamPlot. At the moment what you get from the AIS site is not NOTAM, it is an edited form of the raw NOTAM data arranged into a pre-flight information bulletin (PIB)

Improvements to the layout and data provided in a PIB.

Improvements to the website, including speed, usability and availability

If you have particular points to do with the above that you want raised, or if you have additional issues please raise them here or email me at [email protected]

I will report back after the meeting.

Mike

A change to the cumbersome selection of aerodrome/waypoints etc

The current to-ing & fro-ing between different pages is a pain in the @rse! Why not a drop down list based on the characters present? Micro$oft manage it quite well with their help menu.

Also, why only ICAO codes? Why not IATA or full name? Travel websites manage to cope with it.

Damned if I know every bloody ICAO code used in the UK, consdering the less than intuitive assigments. Give me Oz or (better) USA...

Personally, I'd be quite happy with a list of NOTAMs organised by latitude.

(Hmm, now where have we seen that before???)

I quite often go for short local flights, trying to keep away from airfields. Or I'll be going to another airfield via a dog-leg to avoid London, or a danger area, or similar. The only two ways I can think of getting the information I need for that kind of flight easily is either graphically, or sorted geographically. Currently, it takes over an hour - compared to about 5 minutes with the old system (and that was without using NotamPlot).

FFF
-----------

Godd on ya mrcross. Here's a bug for you then: In "handbook" (why is it called that!?) I am unable to "update" a plan... when I try I get the following error message:

But all the fields are properly filled in, and it works fine in "use" mode...

Meeting with AIS
 

Thanks Andy, I've verified it and added it to the list.

I've also suggested to them that most people regard a Handbook as a User Guide and suggested that they call it "My Briefings" or "Saved Briefings". They need to sort out the drop-down control on the page which obscures the dropdowns from the NavBar, they also need to stop it from saving everything. Currently if you re-use a briefing it will update the date and save it as a new briefing. They also need to give you the option of deleting a briefing you no longer need.
It's not one of their better efforts at page design.

Thanks also FlyingForFun
When I said you needed to be able to extract the information without the need for a computer your point was exactly what I had in mind. We need at least two sections in the briefing, one by geographical location, probably in the old south-north order and another to cover those items which have a wider effect, e.g. the fact that a particular FIS frequency might be unavailable.

All on the list for Thursday


Mike

Hi Tinstaafl

Agreed, the lookup is very poor.
Bear in mind that there's a list of the codes for all licensed airfields on the 500,000 ICAO chart. It's in brackets after the airfield name in the frequency list. Probably quicker to look up.

For anyone having difficulty with decoding the abbreviations they are listed in GEN2-2 of the UK AIP and can be found at http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/gen/10202.PDF (you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader)

Mike

ICAO Codes
 

Hi Tinstaafl

Agreed, the lookup is very poor.
Bear in mind that there's a list of the codes for all licensed airfields on the 500,000 ICAO chart. It's in brackets after the airfield name in the frequency list. Probably quicker to look up.

For anyone having difficulty with decoding the abbreviations they are listed in GEN2-2 of the UK AIP and can be found at http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/gen/10202.PDF (you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader)

Mike

rustle,

I'm a very average private pilot and I find lat / long very confusing and difficult to visualise. Frankly, I tend to switch off when having to figure out which lat / long are relevant to me. It just ends up in a big splurge of unmanageable numbers in my mind.

That's why Notamplot was so brilliant. In this context, therefore, I don't think a graphical representation of data is a 'Nice to have', it's an absolute essential. Many people can cope with sifting through a lengthy list of lat / long. Many, many more can't.

If they're serious about flight safety they will deliver the info to the user in the most easily interpretable fashion, a fashion which even an idiot could interpret, because, let's face it, many pilots are idiots.

So, yes, either concoct a GUI themselves or let notamplot fuction once more. This, I think, is urgent.

QDM

P.S. Look at this useful bit of advice mrcross has just given us to help interpret the ais site: Helpful though this advice is to the technologically abled few, this proves conclusively that you need to be an obsessive geek to be able to use the site. It's a hopeless mess.

QDM,

Did you see this bit of my post:
What I meant was what you want:

A1/A8 so you can use NotamPlot today, whilst they or someone else develops a similar thing for "tomorrow"... :)

Yes, thanks, rustle. All the reports so far though are that this is highly unlikely to occur, is it not?

QDM

Lat/long
 

I second QDM's "find lat / long very confusing and difficult to visualise".

In the old system, it was OK because I could look at a day's list and see where to limit the region of interest by relation to other places I know. (My gliding club needs nothing south of Croxley Green which always features, and there was usually something further north I could recognise to limit the range. Ditto for east and west limitations.).

Today I got the NOTAms for us, found buried in the rest a rocket event up to 15000 feet at Heckingham - just west of the meridian and south of the 53rd parallel, so I thought it might be in range of gliders from Essex. Turned out it is in Lincolnshire and of no interest to us today.

(They often don't put something more helpful, like a county, in the descriptions. Of course, they do mention "Wales" which is apparently within 50 miles of the "narrow route" I have to use to find East Anglian data, as I pick up NOTAMs in that region of a mil - oops, nearly said what they told me I must not use, copy or pass on. They do give counties where kite flying goes on. If NOTAM originators don't give such data, it's a pity AIS can't fill the gap to help the rest of us - but I suppose it's cost again.)

Another bug report to pass on...
 

Hi there,

Just got a narrow (10NM) route briefing for EGUB -> EGMH for this coming Sunday, with route DCT LAM DCT DVR DCT. Output notams included:

Quote:

---

NAVW: FROM 02/10/06 10:25 TO 02/10/06 11:05 H4891/02
E) AUS(MIL REF)02-10-0181/3103/DG
MIL FAST JET (1X TORN F3 ACFT)AEROBATIC DISPLAY
WI 5NMS RAD PSN 5231N 00044W (ROCKINGHAM RACE CIRCUIT, NR CORBY,
NORTHANTS).
F)SFC G)6000FT AGL

---

Which is approx. 50NM north of track, and so oughtn't to have been included.

Hope this helps,

AA, maybe the system is REALLY clever and recognises your navigation skills.;)

Visit to AIS 3 Oct
 

Yesterday I spent 5 hours at AIS Heathrow, meeting with the following:-

Steve Harben, Head of Data Management
Phil Bate, Manager UK AIS
Alan Burrill, Manager IS/IT

It is going to take me a little time to write up a full account so please bear with me.

I am certain that the meeting will produce positive results, though as always with these things, not in the timescale that we might like to see.

Mike

AIS Website Problem
 

Just spoken with Phil Bate, Manager UK AIS

They are experiencing problems with the web servers. They have not yet been able to determine the cause. One possibility is that it is caused by high utilisation because the new AIRAC cycle has just been published and a lot of people may be trying large downloads of the AIP.

Mike

Somtimes it pays to select "IFR / VFR"
 

I found out this afternoon, by accident, that you don't get some categories of aerodrome NOTAM unless you select IFR / VFR. In this case, its of interest also to the VFR pilot...

I plan to fly to Manston (EGMH). I anticipate using the Manston LARS service enroute. When I get my briefing using only "VFR" setting, there is no mention of any problems with Manston's radar service, but when I select IFR/VFR I see:
So I now anticipate no LARS service. Granted, its not cirtical information for VFR flight, but I would suggest that this would be of interest to most VFR users.

Havva great weekend everybody!

Andy - re the Radar at Manston - it will be because the NOTAM was incorrectly coded in the first place. ICAO Annexe 15 lays down a series of Q Codes for the NOTAM which will determine which type of briefing it appears in. Unfortunately we don't see the Q Codes so we can't see when the originator goofed by putting the wroing ones in.

Following my visit to AIS at Heathrow last Thursday I have been speaking to Russell and also to AIS as well.

Russell and I have set up a website at http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais (sorry about the URL but I nicked some space on our own server) Also apologies for the appearance but it has been knocked up in a hurry.

This will give you a good background to what is going on, together with a list of what the various briefings SHOULD do (as we see it) and known problems. If you come up with problems that we have not identified there are links which will allow you to mail us.

As well as our contacts within AIS I have also made contact with the software vendors in France.

Both AIS and Thales Information Systems are receptive to dealing with the issues. Russel and I will try to collate everything and give them the information that they need in a structured way which helps them to resolve the issues.

I spoke yesterday with Phil Bate, the Manager of UK AIS and we are going to arrange a re-visit to look at the mechanics of producing what we all want. To this end I would be grateful if anyone interested could look at the website and respond with feedback that is structured and relevant.

It won't happen overnight but it seems to be going in the right direction.

Mike

Mike and Russell,

Firstly, thank-you to you two for some unbelievable work. AIS and NATS are fortunate indeed to have you two working as unpaid consultants to sort out their complete and utter screw-up of the design and implementation of this system.

Secondly, at the risk of sounding like a mono-maniac, I think a graphical representation, a la Notamplot, is essential if the bog standard pilot is going to consult Notams. Any news on that front? Do they understand how important this is?

Thanks again, anyway.

QDM