USA flying... why on earth do they have to be so different!
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USA flying... why the fu*** do they have to be so different!
Hey gang,
Im off to California in a week for a student J1 holiday with some college buds for 3 months.
Ive already made 1 or 2 posts regarding my trip which the answers I got were all great help... thanks!
But as with anything there is still a couple of things to do with US flying that Im not fully sure about, so if anybody knows the answers to the following Id really apppreciate your knowledge here. cheers!
This is what Im unsure of.....
1.
What does "Flight Following" really mean, Ive read about it in RT books but they persume you know what it is and how it works... but I dont!
2.
When ATC say to you "radar service terminated... freq change approved"... are you supposed to know what freq to change to or why do ATC not say contact xxx on frex xxx.xx?
3.
As in the UK&EIRE all distance measurments on maps are given in NM and call outs by pilots ..say "8 miles out on the ILS" they mean 8NM in the UK but in the USA when do they use NM and when do they use SM?
4.
Why is there so many frequencies for Center. Example.. I was looking through my brand shiney new US VFR flight guide and there is nearly 20 frequencies for Las Angelas Center?.. how do you know which one to choose, and more to the point when should you be in contact with LAX center?
5.
When filing a flight plan, is there any differences to it than in Europe? also can I persume when landing at a controlled airport they will close your FPL for you? and is it the same that your FPL is automauticlly activated if you depart from a towered airport?
6.
Well Im sure I will have another question or two before Thursday.... so I'LL BE BACK!!
thanks again for the help.
Im off to California in a week for a student J1 holiday with some college buds for 3 months.
Ive already made 1 or 2 posts regarding my trip which the answers I got were all great help... thanks!
But as with anything there is still a couple of things to do with US flying that Im not fully sure about, so if anybody knows the answers to the following Id really apppreciate your knowledge here. cheers!
This is what Im unsure of.....
1.
What does "Flight Following" really mean, Ive read about it in RT books but they persume you know what it is and how it works... but I dont!
2.
When ATC say to you "radar service terminated... freq change approved"... are you supposed to know what freq to change to or why do ATC not say contact xxx on frex xxx.xx?
3.
As in the UK&EIRE all distance measurments on maps are given in NM and call outs by pilots ..say "8 miles out on the ILS" they mean 8NM in the UK but in the USA when do they use NM and when do they use SM?
4.
Why is there so many frequencies for Center. Example.. I was looking through my brand shiney new US VFR flight guide and there is nearly 20 frequencies for Las Angelas Center?.. how do you know which one to choose, and more to the point when should you be in contact with LAX center?
5.
When filing a flight plan, is there any differences to it than in Europe? also can I persume when landing at a controlled airport they will close your FPL for you? and is it the same that your FPL is automauticlly activated if you depart from a towered airport?
6.
Well Im sure I will have another question or two before Thursday.... so I'LL BE BACK!!
thanks again for the help.
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Hopefully I have answered you questions, if you have more questions you can email me directly at [email protected] or post them here.
Mike R
NATCA FWA
1.
What does "Flight Following" really mean, Ive read about it in RT books but they persume you know what it is and how it works... but I dont!
>Flight Following is where ATC provides radar flight following, we will issue known traffic (time permitting). Basically we watch you on radar as you fly through our airspace, and if you request we will try to provide radar service to your destination, via radar handoffs to subsequent facilities.
______________________________
2.
When ATC says to you "radar service terminated... freq change approved"... are you supposed to know what freq to change to or why do ATC not say contact xxx on frex xxx.xx?
>When we terminate radar service and say freq change approved, you can either ask for the freq for the next facility, or you can switch over to the common VFR in-flight freq.
_____________________________
3.
As in the UK&EIRE all distance measurments on maps are given in NM and call outs by pilots ..say "8 miles out on the ILS" they mean 8NM in the UK but in the USA when do they use NM and when do they use SM?
We use SM.
____________________________
4.
Why is there so many frequencies for Center. Example.. I was looking through my brand shiney new US VFR flight guide and there is nearly 20 frequencies for Las Angelas Center?.. how do you know which one to choose, and more to the point when should you be in contact with LAX center?
>Each Radar facility has multiple sectors, and each sector will have its own VHF and UHF frequencies. As for knowing which freq to call on, you need to look at your sectional chart, it should list the frequency for the area that you are flying through. IFR sectionals are a great source for the correct frequencies.
____________________________
5.
When filing a flight plan, is there any differences to it than in Europe? also can I persume when landing at a controlled airport they will close your FPL for you? and is it the same that your FPL is automauticlly activated if you depart from a towered airport?
>I'm not sure what the European format is for flight plans so I can't answer that one. You should be able to view a sample form on the FAA web site.
>If you are on a VFR flight plan "YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR CLOSING AND OPENING YOUR VFR FLIGHTPLAN"! You can ask ATC to do this and "IF" we have the time we will.
>If you are on an IFR Flight Plan and are landing at a tower controlled airport ATC will close out your IFR flight plan. If you land at a NON-Towered Airport you are responsible for cancelling your IFR Flight Plan. You can do this by cancelling in the air with ATC, through AFSS (Automated Flight Service Station), or if the airport has one via the remote radio frequency.
>Departing on an IFR flight plan at a towered airport your flight plan will be activated as soon as you depart. At a non-towered airport you need to obtain your clearance, and IFR release either via the remote radio frequency (if the airport has one) or via the local flight service. If it is VFR you can depart VFR and pick up your IFR clearance in the air with ATC.
____________________________
I hope that you throughly enjoy your flying vacation, if you have questions don't hesitate to ask either the local pilots or the controllers that you talk to.
Mike
Mike R
NATCA FWA
1.
What does "Flight Following" really mean, Ive read about it in RT books but they persume you know what it is and how it works... but I dont!
>Flight Following is where ATC provides radar flight following, we will issue known traffic (time permitting). Basically we watch you on radar as you fly through our airspace, and if you request we will try to provide radar service to your destination, via radar handoffs to subsequent facilities.
______________________________
2.
When ATC says to you "radar service terminated... freq change approved"... are you supposed to know what freq to change to or why do ATC not say contact xxx on frex xxx.xx?
>When we terminate radar service and say freq change approved, you can either ask for the freq for the next facility, or you can switch over to the common VFR in-flight freq.
_____________________________
3.
As in the UK&EIRE all distance measurments on maps are given in NM and call outs by pilots ..say "8 miles out on the ILS" they mean 8NM in the UK but in the USA when do they use NM and when do they use SM?
We use SM.
____________________________
4.
Why is there so many frequencies for Center. Example.. I was looking through my brand shiney new US VFR flight guide and there is nearly 20 frequencies for Las Angelas Center?.. how do you know which one to choose, and more to the point when should you be in contact with LAX center?
>Each Radar facility has multiple sectors, and each sector will have its own VHF and UHF frequencies. As for knowing which freq to call on, you need to look at your sectional chart, it should list the frequency for the area that you are flying through. IFR sectionals are a great source for the correct frequencies.
____________________________
5.
When filing a flight plan, is there any differences to it than in Europe? also can I persume when landing at a controlled airport they will close your FPL for you? and is it the same that your FPL is automauticlly activated if you depart from a towered airport?
>I'm not sure what the European format is for flight plans so I can't answer that one. You should be able to view a sample form on the FAA web site.
>If you are on a VFR flight plan "YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR CLOSING AND OPENING YOUR VFR FLIGHTPLAN"! You can ask ATC to do this and "IF" we have the time we will.
>If you are on an IFR Flight Plan and are landing at a tower controlled airport ATC will close out your IFR flight plan. If you land at a NON-Towered Airport you are responsible for cancelling your IFR Flight Plan. You can do this by cancelling in the air with ATC, through AFSS (Automated Flight Service Station), or if the airport has one via the remote radio frequency.
>Departing on an IFR flight plan at a towered airport your flight plan will be activated as soon as you depart. At a non-towered airport you need to obtain your clearance, and IFR release either via the remote radio frequency (if the airport has one) or via the local flight service. If it is VFR you can depart VFR and pick up your IFR clearance in the air with ATC.
____________________________
I hope that you throughly enjoy your flying vacation, if you have questions don't hesitate to ask either the local pilots or the controllers that you talk to.
Mike
Mike/FWA
To number 3, DME measurement is based off of NM not SM. Same with the different classifications of airspace. SM is usually used to describe visibility and cloud clearance minimums, etc
RE:
FAR91.155
AIM 1-1-7
AIM 3-2-4
To number 3, DME measurement is based off of NM not SM. Same with the different classifications of airspace. SM is usually used to describe visibility and cloud clearance minimums, etc
RE:
FAR91.155
AIM 1-1-7
AIM 3-2-4
Last edited by West Coast; 7th Jun 2003 at 15:30.
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A bit about VFR FF
Flight following is excellent. You request FF and you're provided hand-offs to the next facility en-route. You are also cleared through any Class C airspace enroute. If they wan't you to remain clear they'll vector you around it / hand you off to the controlling facility. In the LAX region you'd normally request FF from Socal approach, which handle all the approach control in the LA basin. Its very easy to use, look at the VFR chart, pick the Socal frequency nearest to where you are and give them a call. An example call from LGB to PSP [Palm Springs] would be similar to:
"Socal approach, NXXXXX request"
They'll answer when not busy with something like "NXXXXX go ahead"
Now you pass your message in the good old UK style, ie:
"Socal approach, NXXXXX is a P28A slant Golf two miles to the south of the Queen Mary at 5500, request VFR flight following to Palm Springs at 5500"
The slant Golf bit is the equipment suffix of your aircraft, in this case it signifies IFR approaved GPS. Other designators include:
/U = No DME Txpdr Mode C,
/A=DME txpdr Mode C etc. You can find these on the Nav log forms. Most rental A/C in the LA Basin will be /A.
Socal will respond with something along the lines of "NXXXX sqwark 4212 ident"
Now you read back the sqwark and wait for "NXXXXX Radar contact, 2 miles to the south of the Queen Mary" Once you get the "Radar contact" bit you're being provided a Flight Following radar service. When you come to the edge of the controllers airspace he or she'll hand you off to the next controller, ie:
"NXXXXX contact socal approach on 127.2" which you do. Your next message would be along the lines of
"Socal approach, NXXXXX with you at 5500"
And thats it. In this above example you may get a hand off to a non Socal facility, like March Airforce Base. The procedure is exactly the same, and they'll probably hand you off back to Socal..If they don't and give you the "Radar services terminated, freq change approved" you would look on your chart for the nearest Socal facility and start the procedure over again. Also in the above example, when approaching Palm Springs you'll loose radio contact with Socal due to the mountains. They may give you an instruction along the lines of "If you don't hear from me by Banning, contact Palm Springs Approach on XXXXX" or they may terminate radar services and "recomend yo contact PSP approach at Banning" If you get the first message, PSP approach are expecting you and you'd give the "with you at" message. Otherwise you'd start from scratch again.
Outside the LA basin, VFR flight following is provided by the appropriate approach control facility, for example Phoenix Approach, LA Centre etc. You can get all this info from the VFR flight guides. I use the Jepp ones which list the facility in the radio freq section. Example Big Bear lists LA Centre on 126.35, Long Beach lists Socal departure at 127.2 so these are the freq I'd call for FF.
On thing though, if you're given a message like "NXXXXX traffic 12 o'clock, 3 miles, altitude XXXX" you would respond with something like "looking for traffic". If you do have traffic in sight tell them "NXXXX traffic in sight". Now its your responsibility to avoid the traffic. Never tell them you have traffic if you don't....
I wouldn't bother doing a VFR flight plan in the US. Never have and there's not really a need to, especially if you're using a radar service, which everyone does. The radar coverage is excellent so long as you're high enough. Even out in the desert, >8500' LA centre should be able to see you.
Hope this helps a bit,
Rgds
EA
"Socal approach, NXXXXX request"
They'll answer when not busy with something like "NXXXXX go ahead"
Now you pass your message in the good old UK style, ie:
"Socal approach, NXXXXX is a P28A slant Golf two miles to the south of the Queen Mary at 5500, request VFR flight following to Palm Springs at 5500"
The slant Golf bit is the equipment suffix of your aircraft, in this case it signifies IFR approaved GPS. Other designators include:
/U = No DME Txpdr Mode C,
/A=DME txpdr Mode C etc. You can find these on the Nav log forms. Most rental A/C in the LA Basin will be /A.
Socal will respond with something along the lines of "NXXXX sqwark 4212 ident"
Now you read back the sqwark and wait for "NXXXXX Radar contact, 2 miles to the south of the Queen Mary" Once you get the "Radar contact" bit you're being provided a Flight Following radar service. When you come to the edge of the controllers airspace he or she'll hand you off to the next controller, ie:
"NXXXXX contact socal approach on 127.2" which you do. Your next message would be along the lines of
"Socal approach, NXXXXX with you at 5500"
And thats it. In this above example you may get a hand off to a non Socal facility, like March Airforce Base. The procedure is exactly the same, and they'll probably hand you off back to Socal..If they don't and give you the "Radar services terminated, freq change approved" you would look on your chart for the nearest Socal facility and start the procedure over again. Also in the above example, when approaching Palm Springs you'll loose radio contact with Socal due to the mountains. They may give you an instruction along the lines of "If you don't hear from me by Banning, contact Palm Springs Approach on XXXXX" or they may terminate radar services and "recomend yo contact PSP approach at Banning" If you get the first message, PSP approach are expecting you and you'd give the "with you at" message. Otherwise you'd start from scratch again.
Outside the LA basin, VFR flight following is provided by the appropriate approach control facility, for example Phoenix Approach, LA Centre etc. You can get all this info from the VFR flight guides. I use the Jepp ones which list the facility in the radio freq section. Example Big Bear lists LA Centre on 126.35, Long Beach lists Socal departure at 127.2 so these are the freq I'd call for FF.
On thing though, if you're given a message like "NXXXXX traffic 12 o'clock, 3 miles, altitude XXXX" you would respond with something like "looking for traffic". If you do have traffic in sight tell them "NXXXX traffic in sight". Now its your responsibility to avoid the traffic. Never tell them you have traffic if you don't....
I wouldn't bother doing a VFR flight plan in the US. Never have and there's not really a need to, especially if you're using a radar service, which everyone does. The radar coverage is excellent so long as you're high enough. Even out in the desert, >8500' LA centre should be able to see you.
Hope this helps a bit,
Rgds
EA
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747
USA flying... why the fu*** do they have to be so different!
How many PPLs are there in the US compared to the UK?
To answer your general query with a general answer, I would say it boils down to attitude.
The airspace in the US is owned by all. To gain access to the airspace you have to prove you are safe, and that's about it. In the US you obtain a "certificate", not a "licence". This is really just splitting hairs, but pilots in the US don't think they should be licenced by a government giving them permission to fly. They have a certificate which proves they are competant to fly. It really is a far better attitude and they have a far better system.
Most of your questions are related to ATC services. ATC in the US don't think they are there primarily for the jet traffic, they also have the "airspace is for everybody" attitude.
Also GA is quite powerful in the US, they don't get pushed around easily. I'd suggest you don't go to the US with the "why the f**k are you different" attitude. GA pilots and ATC in the US are a very friendly lot who will fall over themselves to help you out, you will only confuse them and you will end up looking silly
Don't worry about the small stuff and have a great time.
USA flying... why the fu*** do they have to be so different!
How many PPLs are there in the US compared to the UK?
To answer your general query with a general answer, I would say it boils down to attitude.
The airspace in the US is owned by all. To gain access to the airspace you have to prove you are safe, and that's about it. In the US you obtain a "certificate", not a "licence". This is really just splitting hairs, but pilots in the US don't think they should be licenced by a government giving them permission to fly. They have a certificate which proves they are competant to fly. It really is a far better attitude and they have a far better system.
Most of your questions are related to ATC services. ATC in the US don't think they are there primarily for the jet traffic, they also have the "airspace is for everybody" attitude.
Also GA is quite powerful in the US, they don't get pushed around easily. I'd suggest you don't go to the US with the "why the f**k are you different" attitude. GA pilots and ATC in the US are a very friendly lot who will fall over themselves to help you out, you will only confuse them and you will end up looking silly
Don't worry about the small stuff and have a great time.
Flies for fun
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And in the USA, GA pilots have access to all the airport facilities just the same as the jet drivers. You have use of pilot lounges to chill in, coffee, flight planning computers even showers in the larger airports - yes you can even look at Dopler radar pictures on the computer which gives real time weather! You can actually get to see where it's raining/storming right now! The only thing you can't do in 99% of USA airports though is to pay your landing charge!
Anyway g747, don't worry, the controllers in the US are great people and providing that you make an effort to do your best, they will be very forgiving.
Just another piece of advice talking of ATC, if ATC allocate a descrete squawk code, stay wth that squawk. If you use your initiative and squawk VFR 1200 you risk a telling off. Sometimes especially if you are low ATC will lose you. Even if you haven't spoken to them for half an hour and decide that you don't want a VFR following anymore, don't even think about changing frequency and squaking VFR without telling them and getting the response "frequency change approved, resume own navigation" to which you simply say your tail number and if they are not busy, I always say "thank you sir"
Always read back runway and hold short instructions otherwise when they are really busy just say your tail number to acknowledge that you have understood the message.
Anyway g747, don't worry, the controllers in the US are great people and providing that you make an effort to do your best, they will be very forgiving.
Just another piece of advice talking of ATC, if ATC allocate a descrete squawk code, stay wth that squawk. If you use your initiative and squawk VFR 1200 you risk a telling off. Sometimes especially if you are low ATC will lose you. Even if you haven't spoken to them for half an hour and decide that you don't want a VFR following anymore, don't even think about changing frequency and squaking VFR without telling them and getting the response "frequency change approved, resume own navigation" to which you simply say your tail number and if they are not busy, I always say "thank you sir"
Always read back runway and hold short instructions otherwise when they are really busy just say your tail number to acknowledge that you have understood the message.
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Different? It's wonderful! Flight following is the radar service we'd have in Europe if there were ten times more money allocated to ATC than there actually is.
I filed an FPL from Los Angeles to the Grand Canyon (about 4 hours flying time). I took off, called SoCal and was told "squawk 1066 - seems appropriate for you guys" and went all the way to GC, handed over from radar unit to radar unit, 1066 all the way. GC even told me "your flight plan is closed, sir" when we taxied in.
As slim_slag says, the airspace belongs to everyone, and you are treated as an equal. I've had radar vectors though busy airspace in among 737s, and they've been steered round me. Imagine that happening in the UK! You wouldn't be allowed within miles.
The NM and SM thing is a bit of a mess: I had to learn it all for the FAA IR. I can't remember all the details, but basically met vis and distances on the ground are in SM, distances in the air in NM. You'll find 22nm quoted as the range of certain VOR facilities - it used to be 25sm but VOR ranges are now in NM.
If you're on flight following, don't bother to give position reports unless asked. First time I flew across LA, I did the "N455 is at XXX VOR, 6500 feet, estimating YYY at (time)" just like CAP413 tells you. After about the third call, SoCal said "You don't need to tell us all that stuff, we know fine where you are."
If you're flying in California, you absolutely need the up to date sectional and terminal area charts and the A/FD (airport and facility directory). That will allow you to find out, for example, which of the dozens of SoCal frquencies applies for the sector you're in. You can even work them out for your route beforehand.
There are "recommended" routings, especially in IFR, which it's a good idea to follow: again, all in the A/FD.
Flight plans in the USA are totally different from here. You need to stare at one, with the instructions, and learn how it works. You also need to know the "slant code" for your aircraft - probably /A if you hire in California.
You file your flight plan by phoning 1-800-WX BRIEF (a free call) where you can talk to a real human being who will tell you all you need to know. You can ask for different types of briefing - if you don't know the types, tell him what you're doing and ask for advice on which form of briefing. You get weather, NOTAMS, advisories, and all sorts. He'll take down your flight plan for you.
You activate your flight plan, if the tower doesn't do it for you, by calling the local FSS (details on the charts and in the A/FD). You MUST ensure it's closed after you land - it's a good principle ALWAYS to phone 1-800-WXBRIEF after landing to make sure. I once got the call from them to ask if I was OK because mine hadn't been closed. DON'T FORGET!
I filed an FPL from Los Angeles to the Grand Canyon (about 4 hours flying time). I took off, called SoCal and was told "squawk 1066 - seems appropriate for you guys" and went all the way to GC, handed over from radar unit to radar unit, 1066 all the way. GC even told me "your flight plan is closed, sir" when we taxied in.
As slim_slag says, the airspace belongs to everyone, and you are treated as an equal. I've had radar vectors though busy airspace in among 737s, and they've been steered round me. Imagine that happening in the UK! You wouldn't be allowed within miles.
The NM and SM thing is a bit of a mess: I had to learn it all for the FAA IR. I can't remember all the details, but basically met vis and distances on the ground are in SM, distances in the air in NM. You'll find 22nm quoted as the range of certain VOR facilities - it used to be 25sm but VOR ranges are now in NM.
If you're on flight following, don't bother to give position reports unless asked. First time I flew across LA, I did the "N455 is at XXX VOR, 6500 feet, estimating YYY at (time)" just like CAP413 tells you. After about the third call, SoCal said "You don't need to tell us all that stuff, we know fine where you are."
If you're flying in California, you absolutely need the up to date sectional and terminal area charts and the A/FD (airport and facility directory). That will allow you to find out, for example, which of the dozens of SoCal frquencies applies for the sector you're in. You can even work them out for your route beforehand.
There are "recommended" routings, especially in IFR, which it's a good idea to follow: again, all in the A/FD.
Flight plans in the USA are totally different from here. You need to stare at one, with the instructions, and learn how it works. You also need to know the "slant code" for your aircraft - probably /A if you hire in California.
You file your flight plan by phoning 1-800-WX BRIEF (a free call) where you can talk to a real human being who will tell you all you need to know. You can ask for different types of briefing - if you don't know the types, tell him what you're doing and ask for advice on which form of briefing. You get weather, NOTAMS, advisories, and all sorts. He'll take down your flight plan for you.
You activate your flight plan, if the tower doesn't do it for you, by calling the local FSS (details on the charts and in the A/FD). You MUST ensure it's closed after you land - it's a good principle ALWAYS to phone 1-800-WXBRIEF after landing to make sure. I once got the call from them to ask if I was OK because mine hadn't been closed. DON'T FORGET!
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Caravan208B
I think FWA NATCA sum it up in one, excellent post, flying in the US is far better than the UK for facilities you can’t beat them.
Relax and enjoy the experience you will very quickly get to know who to call and when, in some ways the US have far better systems than we do in Europe.
GA in the states is two hundred years ahead than we are in the UK, last week I visited a flying school in the south east, to just have a look around in the hope that I may get back into private flying again, it wasn’t a shiny FBO but a porter cabin with a leaky roof, I only wish for those days back, when I flew in the US, it wasn’t a question where is the cheapest airport, but where is a local restaurant nearest an airport. The restaurant will even pick you up from the airport, now that’s service.
Remember if you have filled a flight plan with flight service and you land at an airport not served with a tower, phone up the flight service or close the flight plan before you land.
Enjoy.
Relax and enjoy the experience you will very quickly get to know who to call and when, in some ways the US have far better systems than we do in Europe.
GA in the states is two hundred years ahead than we are in the UK, last week I visited a flying school in the south east, to just have a look around in the hope that I may get back into private flying again, it wasn’t a shiny FBO but a porter cabin with a leaky roof, I only wish for those days back, when I flew in the US, it wasn’t a question where is the cheapest airport, but where is a local restaurant nearest an airport. The restaurant will even pick you up from the airport, now that’s service.
Remember if you have filled a flight plan with flight service and you land at an airport not served with a tower, phone up the flight service or close the flight plan before you land.
Enjoy.
I say there boy
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From what I've heard about flying in the US (never done it myself) I think a better a question is why the f**k does the UK/Europe have to be so different!
Out of interest is it necessary to file a pre-flight flight plan for all VFR flights in the US, or is it just for flight following or for entry into CAS?
Out of interest is it necessary to file a pre-flight flight plan for all VFR flights in the US, or is it just for flight following or for entry into CAS?
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I really should not get into these threads, but there are some misconceptions which are important to put straight.
1) You HAVE to read back a runway hold short instruction. It's the only thing you do have to read back when flying VFR, or I cannot think of any others.
2) If you are flying in VMC (as you are by definition when on VFR flight following), YOU are responsible for separation from other traffic. ATC will point out other traffic if they have time, but if you hit somebody after ATC have called them out, YOU are at fault - not ATC.
OK, important stuff to know.
The only thing you need to tell ATC when being handed over is your tail number and altitude. They need the altitude to make sure your mode C is working properly. All the rest is fluff. They usually know exactly where you are, and if they don't and they care about it they will ask you.
You have to tell ATC when you change altitude and that is all. If you don't want to continue flight following squawking 1200 is all you need to do, but it might be polite to let them know and say thanks. ATC are on our side and no reason to be rude to them.
You do not have to follow ATC instructions when on VFR flight following when in class E, and I can see that will cause an argument If you don't like what ATC are doing cancel, but again you really should be nice to them as they are being nice to you. If they vector you they should say "suggested heading", and if you want vectors you should say "will accept vectors". They are under no obligation to provide you vectors in class E, and you are under no obligation to follow them. You would be a fool to ignore them though, and now I will be quoted FAR 91.123
VFR flight plans are only looked at if you are overdue. If you have Flight following you can let them know if you have a problem and help will be immediate so FF is a "really good thing". As you cannot guarantee flight following you should file a flight plan. They are very good if you are overdue and will start looking for you 30 mins after your estimated arrival time, so make sure you close it. It is not ATC's responsibility to do so.
Being pedantic here, but you are required to file a VFR flight plan if crossing the ADIZ. If you don't you WILL be surrounded by black helicopters and trigger happy marines when you land.
1) You HAVE to read back a runway hold short instruction. It's the only thing you do have to read back when flying VFR, or I cannot think of any others.
2) If you are flying in VMC (as you are by definition when on VFR flight following), YOU are responsible for separation from other traffic. ATC will point out other traffic if they have time, but if you hit somebody after ATC have called them out, YOU are at fault - not ATC.
OK, important stuff to know.
The only thing you need to tell ATC when being handed over is your tail number and altitude. They need the altitude to make sure your mode C is working properly. All the rest is fluff. They usually know exactly where you are, and if they don't and they care about it they will ask you.
You have to tell ATC when you change altitude and that is all. If you don't want to continue flight following squawking 1200 is all you need to do, but it might be polite to let them know and say thanks. ATC are on our side and no reason to be rude to them.
You do not have to follow ATC instructions when on VFR flight following when in class E, and I can see that will cause an argument
If you don't like what ATC are doing cancel, but again you really should be nice to them as they are being nice to you. If they vector you they should say "suggested heading", and if you want vectors you should say "will accept vectors". They are under no obligation to provide you vectors in class E, and you are under no obligation to follow them. You would be a fool to ignore them though, and now I will be quoted FAR 91.123 VFR flight plans are only looked at if you are overdue. If you have Flight following you can let them know if you have a problem and help will be immediate so FF is a "really good thing". As you cannot guarantee flight following you should file a flight plan. They are very good if you are overdue and will start looking for you 30 mins after your estimated arrival time, so make sure you close it. It is not ATC's responsibility to do so.
Being pedantic here, but you are required to file a VFR flight plan if crossing the ADIZ. If you don't you WILL be surrounded by black helicopters and trigger happy marines when you land.
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Guys....
What can I say but its been less than 12 hours since I posted this thread and I've got all my questions answered and more!
Really appreciate it, thanks a bunch.
_____________________________________
just one other quick ques...
"SoCal Approach" why is it acalled this and do they handle the approach of all a/c into the international airports in CA or what?
Im a bit unsure about the whole "SoCal App" and the "Bay App" in the CA state. Again any advice is really appreciated here.
Cheers.
What can I say but its been less than 12 hours since I posted this thread and I've got all my questions answered and more!
Really appreciate it, thanks a bunch.
_____________________________________
just one other quick ques...
"SoCal Approach" why is it acalled this and do they handle the approach of all a/c into the international airports in CA or what?
Im a bit unsure about the whole "SoCal App" and the "Bay App" in the CA state. Again any advice is really appreciated here.
Cheers.
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Not sure if this was already spelled out or not... but here it goes anyways..
You can get flight following without filing a flight plan... and vice versa.. those two are not tied at all
As for SoCal and Bay App..
SoCal = Southern California Approach. They handle most of southern california, hence the name.
Similarly, Bay App handles the San Francisco bay area.
Both of these are really consolidations, so you don't have LAX approach, Orange county approach, and so forth.. there are so many (big) airports in a relatively small (air)space that they simply consolidated together. Same thing for SFO, OAK and other airports in that area.
Don't be surprised if you start wondering "why the f*** can't we have the same GA system in Europe" after your trip
As mentioned, the GA here is light years ahead of anywhere else.
You can get flight following without filing a flight plan... and vice versa.. those two are not tied at all
As for SoCal and Bay App..
SoCal = Southern California Approach. They handle most of southern california, hence the name.
Similarly, Bay App handles the San Francisco bay area.
Both of these are really consolidations, so you don't have LAX approach, Orange county approach, and so forth.. there are so many (big) airports in a relatively small (air)space that they simply consolidated together. Same thing for SFO, OAK and other airports in that area.
Don't be surprised if you start wondering "why the f*** can't we have the same GA system in Europe" after your trip
As mentioned, the GA here is light years ahead of anywhere else.
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A couple more things...
If you get a "Traffic Alert", then this means that something is very close. I had a "Traffic Alert, traffic less than quater of a mile same altitude, manouvring" once, which scared the sh*t out of me. Saw this Cessna coming straight for me off my left, and he obviously hadn't seen me either. Still made for a great 'Vomit Comit' experience.
As mentioned before if under VFR FF the controllers may suggest stuff, like "VFR decent approved" or they might not. If not, and you want to start your descent [for example], just tell them "Socal NXXXX starting VFR descent" or something.
Finally, if you're taking off from a Class C airport [Santa Barbara / John Wayne spring to mind] you need to get ATC clearance before entering the Class C airspace. This is accomplished on the ground by talking to ground / clearance delivery, and requesting "Class C services" or "VFR flight following" before you take off..."Ground NXXXX at transient parking request taxy to 19R and VFR flight follwing to Fullerton" for example. Ground or CD will issue the sqwark and departure frequence while on the tarmac, and any other pertinent clearance info such as "After take off turn left to 170°". What happens now is that you line up and take off, when safe turn onto your assigned heading or whatever, then the tower will tell you to "contact departure", so you change freq to the one they gave you on the ground.....similar to flying in Class D in the UK..... When you get a "resume own navigation" from ATC this means you're free to resume your own navigation to the destination, make heading changes etc. Until that time you'd fly your last assigned clearance [if they gave you one in the first place].
Seems daunting but in reality it is very easy, and its a pleasure flying in the US.....Oh yea, and if you go to Palm Springs, they have free mouth wash in the toilets !
Cheers
EA
As mentioned before if under VFR FF the controllers may suggest stuff, like "VFR decent approved" or they might not. If not, and you want to start your descent [for example], just tell them "Socal NXXXX starting VFR descent" or something.
Finally, if you're taking off from a Class C airport [Santa Barbara / John Wayne spring to mind] you need to get ATC clearance before entering the Class C airspace. This is accomplished on the ground by talking to ground / clearance delivery, and requesting "Class C services" or "VFR flight following" before you take off..."Ground NXXXX at transient parking request taxy to 19R and VFR flight follwing to Fullerton" for example. Ground or CD will issue the sqwark and departure frequence while on the tarmac, and any other pertinent clearance info such as "After take off turn left to 170°". What happens now is that you line up and take off, when safe turn onto your assigned heading or whatever, then the tower will tell you to "contact departure", so you change freq to the one they gave you on the ground.....similar to flying in Class D in the UK..... When you get a "resume own navigation" from ATC this means you're free to resume your own navigation to the destination, make heading changes etc. Until that time you'd fly your last assigned clearance [if they gave you one in the first place].
Seems daunting but in reality it is very easy, and its a pleasure flying in the US.....Oh yea, and if you go to Palm Springs, they have free mouth wash in the toilets !
Cheers
EA
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Welcome to the real world of flying
Thus, when you fly in USA everything is there for you!
1. you'll never have to worry about anything except your flying and comply with your navegation and instructions. I been all over the world and nothing is easier than flying in USA.
Cheers
1. you'll never have to worry about anything except your flying and comply with your navegation and instructions. I been all over the world and nothing is easier than flying in USA.
Cheers
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All I can say to all that posted here is "THANK YOU"
All the information is a defenite help.
Im leaving for San Diego on Thusday next and as soon as I make my first flight over in the US I will post it on this thread to let you all know how it went, and if people like I am more than happy to update my US flying progress on this thread as it happens. Just make a quick post if you would like me to kepp a "mini diary" if you will.
One or two requests and I'll do it.
Thanks again fellow flyers!
All the information is a defenite help.
Im leaving for San Diego on Thusday next and as soon as I make my first flight over in the US I will post it on this thread to let you all know how it went, and if people like I am more than happy to update my US flying progress on this thread as it happens. Just make a quick post if you would like me to kepp a "mini diary" if you will.
One or two requests and I'll do it.
Thanks again fellow flyers!
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No clearance is required to enter Class C in the US, only two way communication. If they tell you to remain clear, remain clear, or else you put your licence in jeopardy.
As mentioned, SOCAL provides ATC services for Southern California within the LA basin and down to the border with Mexico. They fill the gap between LA Centre and the tower controllers. They have a huge amount of traffic to manage but will fit the little VFR traffic in with pleasure. The frequencies are on the terminal charts, but if you get it wrong they will advise you of the correct frequency when they find out where you are.
As Englishal says, they will suggest stuff if you are starting to get in the way, they cannot make you do things in class E. If they call you with a "N12345 descend at pilots discretion" it means if you remain at your altitude they are probably going to have to shift IFR heavy iron around you. Be polite and descend, letting them know where you will level off.
They would rather you talk to them than stay silent squawking 1200. Give them a call, they are nice people and very accomodating to the little guys.
Yes, they sure do it different.
As mentioned, SOCAL provides ATC services for Southern California within the LA basin and down to the border with Mexico. They fill the gap between LA Centre and the tower controllers. They have a huge amount of traffic to manage but will fit the little VFR traffic in with pleasure. The frequencies are on the terminal charts, but if you get it wrong they will advise you of the correct frequency when they find out where you are.
As Englishal says, they will suggest stuff if you are starting to get in the way, they cannot make you do things in class E. If they call you with a "N12345 descend at pilots discretion" it means if you remain at your altitude they are probably going to have to shift IFR heavy iron around you. Be polite and descend, letting them know where you will level off.
They would rather you talk to them than stay silent squawking 1200. Give them a call, they are nice people and very accomodating to the little guys.
Yes, they sure do it different.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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San Diego... Great city!!
I grew up in San Diego.... my family still lives there but it's been 2 years since my last visit 
My "home" airfield over there is Gillespie Field in El Cajon.... it's located just east of San Diego... I chartered there at Golden State Flying... great bunch of people there and a "club" atmosphere... if you visit them, just say hi to Steve or Rich from the crazy hometown girl that lives in Germany...
I think you mentioned in another thread that you'll be flying out of Montgomery Field, right? Very easy to handle things over there....
Enjoy your trip!!
WestWind1950
My "home" airfield over there is Gillespie Field in El Cajon.... it's located just east of San Diego... I chartered there at Golden State Flying... great bunch of people there and a "club" atmosphere... if you visit them, just say hi to Steve or Rich from the crazy hometown girl that lives in Germany...
I think you mentioned in another thread that you'll be flying out of Montgomery Field, right? Very easy to handle things over there....
Enjoy your trip!!
WestWind1950
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You'll never have to worry about anything except your flying and comply with your navegation and instructions. I been all over the world and nothing is easier than flying in USA
I do agree 100% that the service you get from ATC and FBOs in the USA is excellent; and American pilots are very friendly. It's a great country to fly in!