USA flying... why on earth do they have to be so different!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 539
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From: Kandahar Afghanistan
To correct Slim Slang, permission is REQUIRED to enter Class C and Class B airspace.
The name So Cal stands for Southern California Tracon, it got that name when the FAA consolidated several Radar Approach Control Facilities under one roof.
I hope you enjoy your flying vacation. If you need any help just contact the nearest Air Traffic Control Tower or Radar Facility and ask for the NATCA Local President. Who knows they might even buy you dinner.
Mike
NATCA Local FWA
The name So Cal stands for Southern California Tracon, it got that name when the FAA consolidated several Radar Approach Control Facilities under one roof.
I hope you enjoy your flying vacation. If you need any help just contact the nearest Air Traffic Control Tower or Radar Facility and ask for the NATCA Local President. Who knows they might even buy you dinner.
Mike
NATCA Local FWA
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Mike,
Where does it say a VFR pilot needs permission to enter class C? FAR 91.130 (c) (1) - Operations in Class C airspace - says
I've never received 'permission', I usually get asked if I am familiar, always receive a beacon code, and then get told to head somewhere. I've never been given permission (i.e a clearance) when VFR. I've been told transition is approved, but I don't think that is the same as permission. From my understanding, one I have established two way communications, I can penetrate the Class C without having my request approved.
Does it say something else in your ATC handbook?
regards
Where does it say a VFR pilot needs permission to enter class C? FAR 91.130 (c) (1) - Operations in Class C airspace - says
Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
Does it say something else in your ATC handbook?
regards
Flies for fun
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Wishing it was somewhere sunny!
Two way communication is all that's necessary to enter class Charlie, that means once the controller has called your tail number you are clear to enter. Class Bravo is altogether different and Class Bravo must not be entered until the controller says"xxxx is clear to enter the class Bravo"
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: surfing, watching for sharks
Slim Slag
Funny meeting you here.
You are correct. Simply establishing two way comm allows you to enter class C airspace. I believe Mike/FWA is equating the two way comm requirement as the "clearance".
Funny meeting you here.
You are correct. Simply establishing two way comm allows you to enter class C airspace. I believe Mike/FWA is equating the two way comm requirement as the "clearance".
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 119
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From: Southern England
I can also recommend flying in USA - I had a holiday over in SoCal & Navada land a few years ago - great fun!
Also, if you go to the right FBOs they will often lend you a car for free (just top up the fuel) to check out the local area on the ground for a few hours! When I went to Palm Springs, they had 2 cars just for that purpose. Anyone heard of that in the UK? ...
I'm currently starting to plan a trip down to Cote d'Azur - so I've got another learning process to go though
Have fun in the US
D&O
Also, if you go to the right FBOs they will often lend you a car for free (just top up the fuel) to check out the local area on the ground for a few hours! When I went to Palm Springs, they had 2 cars just for that purpose. Anyone heard of that in the UK? ...
I'm currently starting to plan a trip down to Cote d'Azur - so I've got another learning process to go though
Have fun in the US
D&O
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,547
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From: Dublin
Yes Genius, post a diary.
Also post any differences that you notice that others have not posted here. As someone who is flying there for the first time, I'm sure you will notice other differences that others have forgotten or just got used too.
dp
Also post any differences that you notice that others have not posted here. As someone who is flying there for the first time, I'm sure you will notice other differences that others have forgotten or just got used too.
dp
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 539
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From: Kandahar Afghanistan
Slim-Slag,
The establishement of two way communication is permission, my concern was that you were implying that the VFR pilot could just fly through without communication being established.
The key is that the controller has to answer you using your call sign, if he says acft calling XYZ approach stand by that is not establishing two way communication.
It is far safer to contact ATC and let us know that you are out there than to assume that we see you!
Mike
NATCA FWA
The establishement of two way communication is permission, my concern was that you were implying that the VFR pilot could just fly through without communication being established.
The key is that the controller has to answer you using your call sign, if he says acft calling XYZ approach stand by that is not establishing two way communication.
It is far safer to contact ATC and let us know that you are out there than to assume that we see you!
Mike
NATCA FWA
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 75
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From: North Carolina, USA, Planet Earth
Lots of good info here, but let me clarify one point-under VFR, the pilot is always responsible for separation from other traffic, with or without flight following. Small point to be sure, but could be crucial under some circumstances 
!
!
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Mike,
Your concern was unwarranted, I clearly said you needed two way communication, and if the controller establishes two way communication and tells you to remain clear, you remain clear. No idea why I get involved in these threads
Regards
Your concern was unwarranted, I clearly said you needed two way communication, and if the controller establishes two way communication and tells you to remain clear, you remain clear. No idea why I get involved in these threads
Regards
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
They're good points from both of you. As a pilot there's a subtle difference to being cleared to do xyz inside CTA, compared to more or less freely wandering around in CTA. That's the important difference (to us) about requesting a clearance or establishing communications.
There's also the subtle & important difference that FWA-NATCA highlighted about what is considered to meet the 'establish comms' rule ie a response with your callsign or a general call (even though it's directed at you).
There's also the subtle & important difference that FWA-NATCA highlighted about what is considered to meet the 'establish comms' rule ie a response with your callsign or a general call (even though it's directed at you).
Joined: Nov 2001
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
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From: Not sure now
TFRs
Just an addition to all the good information for your trip in California. Be sure to ask if there are any TFRs ( Temporary Flight Restrictions ) during your weather briefing. After 9-11 these were put in place around many areas, especially Washington D.C., Nuclear power plants, and other sensitive areas. It would be best to not loiter around power plants, dams, and the like either. That may cause some concern from the ground.
As a former Search and Rescue pilot in California I would also add to be careful in the mountain passes or crossing over the mountains. They can generate some very nasty winds, turbulence, and downdrafts. There are many wrecks littered around those mountains from pilots with not enough respect for mother nature or knowledge of their aircraft performance capabilities.
Camarillo and Chino are good places to go if you want to see some warbirds. Chino is home to Planes of Fame West, while Camarillo now has the Commemoritive Air Force, Confederate sounded better
Santa Barbara is always a wonderful flight up the coast as well.
Have fun,
Typhoonpilot
As a former Search and Rescue pilot in California I would also add to be careful in the mountain passes or crossing over the mountains. They can generate some very nasty winds, turbulence, and downdrafts. There are many wrecks littered around those mountains from pilots with not enough respect for mother nature or knowledge of their aircraft performance capabilities.
Camarillo and Chino are good places to go if you want to see some warbirds. Chino is home to Planes of Fame West, while Camarillo now has the Commemoritive Air Force, Confederate sounded better
Santa Barbara is always a wonderful flight up the coast as well.Have fun,
Typhoonpilot
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Genius 747
One small piece of information before you get confused by this ....
Flight following is an obsolete term, replaced a few years ago by 'Class C' radar service.
However, as with many obsolete terms, Flight Following is still very much in use.
Just thought I'd mention that in case you read a new text book and wonder what is going on
I'm out in FL for the week and would love to have a fly, but am too busy at work
Enjoy Socal!
One small piece of information before you get confused by this ....
Flight following is an obsolete term, replaced a few years ago by 'Class C' radar service.
However, as with many obsolete terms, Flight Following is still very much in use.
Just thought I'd mention that in case you read a new text book and wonder what is going on
I'm out in FL for the week and would love to have a fly, but am too busy at work
Enjoy Socal!
Flies for fun
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 789
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From: Wishing it was somewhere sunny!
3 Greens: I'm a bit confused 
I realise that one asks for "Class Charlie Services" when flying through the LA basin and other areas in or close to class C airspace, but I have always asked for "VFR Flight Following" when out in the sticks ie over the desert or the ocean. Is it correct to ask for Class Charlie Services when flying well clear of Class Charlie airspace when asking for radar cover??????????? Not a criticism of your post, I'm just just puzled!
I realise that one asks for "Class Charlie Services" when flying through the LA basin and other areas in or close to class C airspace, but I have always asked for "VFR Flight Following" when out in the sticks ie over the desert or the ocean. Is it correct to ask for Class Charlie Services when flying well clear of Class Charlie airspace when asking for radar cover??????????? Not a criticism of your post, I'm just just puzled!
