Suitable aircraft to learn in
Thread Starter
Northern Monkey
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 217
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From: Newcastle, England
Suitable aircraft to learn in
Hi there all.
I am wanting to start my ppl soon, and have decided fo fly from Sherburn as it is only about 10 miles from my house. My question is regarding choosing which aircraft to fly in.
I have experience flying SLMGs with air cadets, and Sherburn have a robin 2160 that can be used. I Think that this may be the best aircraft for me to learn in, as it seems similar in some respects to the SLMGs that i am used to (control column, good visability) however i understand that it would be an unusual choice of training aircraft.
It costs about £5 more per hour to fly, but this is not a great issue. Could the aircrafts basic airobatic ability give it a lower primary stability, making it more difficult to fly, or is this not the case
What is everyones opinion. Do you think i would be best learning in this aircraft, or in a pa28/c150 which seem to be more popular choices.
NB
I am wanting to start my ppl soon, and have decided fo fly from Sherburn as it is only about 10 miles from my house. My question is regarding choosing which aircraft to fly in.
I have experience flying SLMGs with air cadets, and Sherburn have a robin 2160 that can be used. I Think that this may be the best aircraft for me to learn in, as it seems similar in some respects to the SLMGs that i am used to (control column, good visability) however i understand that it would be an unusual choice of training aircraft.
It costs about £5 more per hour to fly, but this is not a great issue. Could the aircrafts basic airobatic ability give it a lower primary stability, making it more difficult to fly, or is this not the case
What is everyones opinion. Do you think i would be best learning in this aircraft, or in a pa28/c150 which seem to be more popular choices.
NB
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 504
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From: South Yorkshire
I think the Robin 2160 would be an excellect aircraft for you to learn to fly in. You have correctly identified the similarities in the basic configuration of the aircraft (low wing, control column not a yoke, good vis etc.) that will mean that at least in you own mind you are not taking a step too far away from what you know.
The more popular choices of PA28/C150/C152 are not driven by customer popularity but by operator popularity! This popularity is (I suspect) mainly driven by commercial concerns.
The aerobatic capabilities of the aircraft will not make it difficult to fly, rather the opposite.
The more popular choices of PA28/C150/C152 are not driven by customer popularity but by operator popularity! This popularity is (I suspect) mainly driven by commercial concerns.
The aerobatic capabilities of the aircraft will not make it difficult to fly, rather the opposite.
Guest
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NB
I did my first 10 hours on C150/2 and finished it on a PA28. A few hundred hours later I fly a Beagle Pup.
The C150/2 is a better trainer than the PA28 (which is just too docile), but I imagine that the Robin would be similar in some respects to the Pup.
Once you have got used to the crisper handling (which will feel very different to the SLMG), your flying will become more accurate and you will love it.
Whatever you choose, enjoy!
I did my first 10 hours on C150/2 and finished it on a PA28. A few hundred hours later I fly a Beagle Pup.
The C150/2 is a better trainer than the PA28 (which is just too docile), but I imagine that the Robin would be similar in some respects to the Pup.
Once you have got used to the crisper handling (which will feel very different to the SLMG), your flying will become more accurate and you will love it.
Whatever you choose, enjoy!
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Chichester, UK
I fly the Robin 2160 - love it, and I think it would be an excellent training aeroplane. Wish i'd done my PPL on it! I don't think stability is a problem. It's a very flyable aeroplane. Only problem is that spamcans will seem a bit dull in comparison when you've got your PPL and want to take up more than one passenger 
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Almost Scotland
I fly both PA28s and R2160s from Sherburn, where I trained on PA28s - and did the R2160 conversion after gaining a licence.
True, the R2160 is great to fly, and does not seem over lively - just very responsive.
However, I would sound a note of practicality in training. Sherburn has 4 PA28-Cadets and 3 PA28-Warriors available for training. Has 2 R2160s for basic training and aerobatic training. I'd suspect that the availability of PA28s is much greater consequently, and will give you more flexibility.
True, the R2160 is great to fly, and does not seem over lively - just very responsive.
However, I would sound a note of practicality in training. Sherburn has 4 PA28-Cadets and 3 PA28-Warriors available for training. Has 2 R2160s for basic training and aerobatic training. I'd suspect that the availability of PA28s is much greater consequently, and will give you more flexibility.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 768
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From: Paros, Greece
I also fly Pa28's and 2160's out of Sherburn, having converted to the Robin recently.
The 2160 is indeed very nice to fly, although it's a bit more of a handful than the slower and more stable Pipers and Cessnas. Looking back to my basic training, I had my hands full handling the Pa28 in those first few hours and the Robin would have been even harder work. Depends what kind of person you are - if you like the 'in at the deep end' approach go for the Robin. It's nice, and as you say, £5/hr makes little difference.
If I was training again, I'd split my training between both types, with some C150 work thrown in too for good measure. That way I'd come out of it a more rounded pilot. Do the first stage of the course (to solo consolidation) in one type then experiment a bit with others.
As for availability, yes, the Pa28's are more usually used for training, but some do train on the Robins. Since converting I have found that Robins are easier to book at short notice because, although there are only two, less people use them. If you plan well ahead you should have no problems getting the bookings you require.
PM me and I'll happily chat in more detail if you want.
The 2160 is indeed very nice to fly, although it's a bit more of a handful than the slower and more stable Pipers and Cessnas. Looking back to my basic training, I had my hands full handling the Pa28 in those first few hours and the Robin would have been even harder work. Depends what kind of person you are - if you like the 'in at the deep end' approach go for the Robin. It's nice, and as you say, £5/hr makes little difference.
If I was training again, I'd split my training between both types, with some C150 work thrown in too for good measure. That way I'd come out of it a more rounded pilot. Do the first stage of the course (to solo consolidation) in one type then experiment a bit with others.
As for availability, yes, the Pa28's are more usually used for training, but some do train on the Robins. Since converting I have found that Robins are easier to book at short notice because, although there are only two, less people use them. If you plan well ahead you should have no problems getting the bookings you require.
PM me and I'll happily chat in more detail if you want.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 274
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From: Location, Location
I was advised to learn in the cheapest, with a view to flying what I want once I passed. Seemed to make sense to me. C152 was the beast (mouse?) and some of the less pristene ones were perfectly good at catching you out in stalls etc. with some nasty wingdrops.
Not exactly an exciting a/c to fly but, then again, just flying is exciting, right?
Hersh
Not exactly an exciting a/c to fly but, then again, just flying is exciting, right?
Hersh
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
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From: Bournemouth
When I was hour-building, the school I hired from were training someone for his PPL on a Piper Super Cub. He passed his check-ride a week before I left.
I don't recall seeing "Tiger Moth" post on here for a little while, but he's doing his PPL on, you guessed it, a Tiger Moth, and soloed it a little while ago.
Basically, if you want to learn on a specific aircraft, then go for it. As long as it's a single-engine and doesn't have complexities like a variable-pitch prop, it shouldn't cause you any trouble as long as you have an instructor who's familiar with the type. The only things which might be a factor would be cost and availability. But as long as you understand that and go in with your eyes open, I don't see it being an issue.
Good luck - and have fun!
FFF
---------------
I don't recall seeing "Tiger Moth" post on here for a little while, but he's doing his PPL on, you guessed it, a Tiger Moth, and soloed it a little while ago.
Basically, if you want to learn on a specific aircraft, then go for it. As long as it's a single-engine and doesn't have complexities like a variable-pitch prop, it shouldn't cause you any trouble as long as you have an instructor who's familiar with the type. The only things which might be a factor would be cost and availability. But as long as you understand that and go in with your eyes open, I don't see it being an issue.
Good luck - and have fun!
FFF
---------------
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
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From: Canada
As long as it's a single-engine and doesn't have complexities like a variable-pitch prop, it shouldn't cause you any trouble
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 306
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From: UK Work: London. Home: East Anglia
Don't have a source to hand but I once was told by an airline training captain that at one stage ab-initio Lufthansa students were required to solo the Bonanza in around 6 hours from scratch, or get washed out. The RAF at one point also taught ab initio on the Jet Provost, though they subsequently reintroduced a pre-primary phase on SEP types.
So feel free to train on the Robin, and do some spinning and basic aeros while you're at it.
So feel free to train on the Robin, and do some spinning and basic aeros while you're at it.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 96
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From: Brighton
NinjaBill
Ask yourself WHY you are learning to fly.
If just as a personal challenge, or to prove to your mates down the pub that you can do it, go for a C150/C152 - it is perhaps the easiest plane to LAND due to the absence of ground effect (every plane is easy to FLY although some e.g. a Tomahawk are too unstable to mess about with a chart in the cockpit etc).
If you want to fly seriously afterwards though, then ask yourself what you might want to fly then. Look around at your local field for shares for sale, or even planes for sale. (I doubt you will do much flying on hourly-billed self fly hire; very few people do due to the huge cost of a decent trip somewhere and the impossibility of going away with it for a week etc)
If you think you can afford to buy into a PA28 group for example then (assuming the group plane is on a Public Transport CofA) buy into it now (**) and do your PPL in it. Same if you want to buy a plane - assuming you are reasonably intelligent the foregoing is IMHO true even if you want to fly something quite complex. The huge advantage of learning in what you will fly eventually is that when you've got your PPL you already have some 50-70 hours on type and you know it inside out.
(**) before buying into a group, ask around re any problems with existing members, and discreetly get an experienced pilot / engineer to give you a discreet view on the plane. Don't ask an instructor in your school for his view - OF COURSE he wants you to rent his by the hour.
I've been around this block well and truly....
Ask yourself WHY you are learning to fly.
If just as a personal challenge, or to prove to your mates down the pub that you can do it, go for a C150/C152 - it is perhaps the easiest plane to LAND due to the absence of ground effect (every plane is easy to FLY although some e.g. a Tomahawk are too unstable to mess about with a chart in the cockpit etc).
If you want to fly seriously afterwards though, then ask yourself what you might want to fly then. Look around at your local field for shares for sale, or even planes for sale. (I doubt you will do much flying on hourly-billed self fly hire; very few people do due to the huge cost of a decent trip somewhere and the impossibility of going away with it for a week etc)
If you think you can afford to buy into a PA28 group for example then (assuming the group plane is on a Public Transport CofA) buy into it now (**) and do your PPL in it. Same if you want to buy a plane - assuming you are reasonably intelligent the foregoing is IMHO true even if you want to fly something quite complex. The huge advantage of learning in what you will fly eventually is that when you've got your PPL you already have some 50-70 hours on type and you know it inside out.
(**) before buying into a group, ask around re any problems with existing members, and discreetly get an experienced pilot / engineer to give you a discreet view on the plane. Don't ask an instructor in your school for his view - OF COURSE he wants you to rent his by the hour.
I've been around this block well and truly....
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 369
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From: UK
IO540-C4D5D you say
I diddnt find it any worse than a PA28 when I was learning. I have a soft spot for the Tommohawk (PA38) and would recomend it for learning in as it lets you know when you get things wrong.
every plane is easy to FLY although some e.g. a Tomahawk are too unstable to mess about with a chart in the cockpit etc
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 870
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From: UK
I learned to fly initially on a Bulldog, and subsequently began again some years later on a PA28. The Warrior was a fat lazy dollop with a stupid and undignified entry/exit compared to the Bulldog, which had lovely crisp handling allowing for really accurate flying, and a bubble canopy for a fabulous view (which is one of the major pleasures of flying anyway).
If money isn't an issue (and £5 ph isn't exactly a fortune), go for the much better handling and more enjoyable aircraft. I don't think you'll ever regret it.
If money isn't an issue (and £5 ph isn't exactly a fortune), go for the much better handling and more enjoyable aircraft. I don't think you'll ever regret it.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 66
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From: Yorkshire
Hi
Also learning at Sherburn having been at Leeds before.
Everything previously mentioned applies, eg the number of PA28's but also although the Robin is a fiver more per hour over the 45 + hours that equals £225 which in my book would be better for more lessons etc. Great club and super people, look forward to seeing you there sometime. Contact me if you want to
I flew C172 and C152 at Leeds and also had a go in a Robin, personally I like the PA28s and certainly low wing is much eaier in the circuit.
Cheers
Also learning at Sherburn having been at Leeds before.
Everything previously mentioned applies, eg the number of PA28's but also although the Robin is a fiver more per hour over the 45 + hours that equals £225 which in my book would be better for more lessons etc. Great club and super people, look forward to seeing you there sometime. Contact me if you want to
I flew C172 and C152 at Leeds and also had a go in a Robin, personally I like the PA28s and certainly low wing is much eaier in the circuit.
Cheers
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 96
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From: Brighton
HelenD
I have about 25 hrs on the Terrorhawk and yes it does let you know when you have stalled - the resulting instant plummet with a wing drop, done from 5000ft and left to fully develop, beats any fairground ride! It's a fun plane but if I was aiming to learn in the one I am likely to fly afterwards I would not choose the PA38 because
a) it is going to be a lot more tiring to fly on longer trips than a PA28 (the elevator trim is absolute c**p)
b) very few of them around outside a few schools so self fly hire availability is generally not good (they only made them for about two years c. 1980, stopped because too many people got killed in them)
I also have 40 hrs in a C152 and 60 hrs in a PA28-161/181 and would say all three fly entirely differently. Which is not to disagree with you as to the relative reaction of a new student to the different types.
But, when learning, one should consider what is available to fly post-PPL locally. No problem not to - you just waste a lot more money
I have about 25 hrs on the Terrorhawk and yes it does let you know when you have stalled - the resulting instant plummet with a wing drop, done from 5000ft and left to fully develop, beats any fairground ride! It's a fun plane but if I was aiming to learn in the one I am likely to fly afterwards I would not choose the PA38 because
a) it is going to be a lot more tiring to fly on longer trips than a PA28 (the elevator trim is absolute c**p)
b) very few of them around outside a few schools so self fly hire availability is generally not good (they only made them for about two years c. 1980, stopped because too many people got killed in them)
I also have 40 hrs in a C152 and 60 hrs in a PA28-161/181 and would say all three fly entirely differently. Which is not to disagree with you as to the relative reaction of a new student to the different types.
But, when learning, one should consider what is available to fly post-PPL locally. No problem not to - you just waste a lot more money
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 716
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From: London
Ford Cortinas vs. a BMW or an Audi... The Robin isn't a Ferrari, but Pierre's aircraft are sweet and neat. They fly nice and 'tight' with - in the 2160 at least - visibility that has been likened to being in a heli. Lovely aircraft. I trained in Warriors - never going back, just upside down, vertical up, vertical down... :-)
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
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From: Oop North, UK
Another way of looking at these aorcraft is that the Robin is a Flying machine, the Cessnas and Pa28s are machines designed to go from A to B with minimum interference from the driver - if you want to learn to FLY rather than just drive an aircraft go for the Robin.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 369
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From: UK
IO540-C4D5D what you have said is very true. Must admit I would have never flown the PA38 if I had not gone to Inverness. I was quite anxious about them because of the stories I heard. Thankfully I was taught how nice they were and have a love of them now. Their only disadvantage is that they only have 2 seats. Having spent some time on them I went back to the PA28 at my south coast school and finally got solo on that. I have also tried the C172 but diddnt get on too well because of the electric flaps. Once I have more confidence and ability I will give the C172 another go. I have decided I will mainly stick to the PA28 but will fly a PA38 when ever I can as its both cheaper and more fun. I am taking the plunge soon and going to have a go at spinning the PA38.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Deepest Warwickshire
Really is a no-brainer. Robin has a stick 'n' rudder. Excellent visibility for aircraft avoidance, PFLs and steep turns.
Less cilivilised next to a Warrior but who cares? You'll be a better, more exclusive pilot for having learnt on the Robin.
You can alway "convert" onto the other types later on if needs be.
-BR-
*biased* ;-)
Less cilivilised next to a Warrior but who cares? You'll be a better, more exclusive pilot for having learnt on the Robin.
You can alway "convert" onto the other types later on if needs be.
-BR-
*biased* ;-)