LFAT ILS approach plates?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Sandwich, Kent, UK
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LFAT ILS approach plates?
Afternoon all,
Can anyone point me to an online source for the Le Touqet ILS approach plates please? I may be popping over for some IMC instruction on Sunday and would appreciate being able to bone up on the approach before then! (I've tried Google and found what I think was the 'official' Le Touqet Aerodrome website, but it was pretty dire...)
Cheers,
cbl.
Can anyone point me to an online source for the Le Touqet ILS approach plates please? I may be popping over for some IMC instruction on Sunday and would appreciate being able to bone up on the approach before then! (I've tried Google and found what I think was the 'official' Le Touqet Aerodrome website, but it was pretty dire...)
Cheers,
cbl.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Sandwich, Kent, UK
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks, TvR - that certainly explains why I couldn't find it online!
I'll just have to wait til I'm at the club on Sunday for my first look at the approach... how hard can it be, anyway...?
cbl.
I'll just have to wait til I'm at the club on Sunday for my first look at the approach... how hard can it be, anyway...?
cbl.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You do know that your instructor's FI rating expires at the FIR boundary, don't you? So even if he lets you fly the LFAT ILS in simulated IMC, you can't log the time as P/UT, and it can't be signed off as a satisfactory ILS approach in your logbook? (Indeed I'm not sure about the legality of simulated IMC in French airspace anyway.)
For that matter, once you have the IMC rating you can't use it in France, either...
Tim
For that matter, once you have the IMC rating you can't use it in France, either...
Tim
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You do know that your instructor's FI rating expires at the FIR boundary, don't you?
FFF
---------------
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tmmorris - I didnt (know the FI rating expired at the FIR). So is that another JAR ism? Are you saying the position is a UK FI qualified with a JAA license cannot teach in France or needs some other bit of paper before he can do so?
As to flying approaches in simulated IMC, there was a previous thread on this that reached the conclusion that was fine subject to the caveats mentioned.
It is true you cant use the IMC rating in France, but of course the point is training on the L2K approach is much cheaper than most here, and after all one ILS is much like any other (except in JAA land I suppose).
As to flying approaches in simulated IMC, there was a previous thread on this that reached the conclusion that was fine subject to the caveats mentioned.
It is true you cant use the IMC rating in France, but of course the point is training on the L2K approach is much cheaper than most here, and after all one ILS is much like any other (except in JAA land I suppose).
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
X-Channel checks should be logged as P1 to you for the last X minutes from FIR boundary to landing in france.
ILS approaches can be done under VFR, so they are perfectly possible with the UK-FI as safety pilot - you are not under IFR so the "trainee" is P1, and not P/ut, for the duration of the french-FIR bit.
Alternatively, if the FI is also an IR holder, he/she can log P1 for the french ILS approaches and you could do them under IFR (but log nothing)
Not a real issue unless you only spend 10 seconds getting from the UK-FIR to the french FIR and then spend a lot of time inside french airspace...
But what the hell: If we're going to advertise breach of copywrite on a public BB, we may as well log whatever we like in our logbooks
ILS approaches can be done under VFR, so they are perfectly possible with the UK-FI as safety pilot - you are not under IFR so the "trainee" is P1, and not P/ut, for the duration of the french-FIR bit.
Alternatively, if the FI is also an IR holder, he/she can log P1 for the french ILS approaches and you could do them under IFR (but log nothing)
Not a real issue unless you only spend 10 seconds getting from the UK-FIR to the french FIR and then spend a lot of time inside french airspace...
But what the hell: If we're going to advertise breach of copywrite on a public BB, we may as well log whatever we like in our logbooks
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm... Silence came the reply.
I would be tempted to disregard the alleged restriction on JAA FI ticket, since I can see no reference to it in any of the obvious documentation.
It would create something of a problem for the many overseas schools too.
What is true though, is that for your flight to be conducted under IFR in France, the commander of the flight (presumably your instructor), will need to hold an Instrument Rating, regardless of the weather conditions. As others have indicated, if nobody on board has an IR, then the approach can only be flown under VFR, and therefore in VMC.
This has been known to confuse French ATC at Calais and Le Touquet who have enormous difficulties working out what they are supposed to do when a VFR training flight and a real IFR flight are both holding or flying approaches at the same facility.
I would be tempted to disregard the alleged restriction on JAA FI ticket, since I can see no reference to it in any of the obvious documentation.
It would create something of a problem for the many overseas schools too.
What is true though, is that for your flight to be conducted under IFR in France, the commander of the flight (presumably your instructor), will need to hold an Instrument Rating, regardless of the weather conditions. As others have indicated, if nobody on board has an IR, then the approach can only be flown under VFR, and therefore in VMC.
This has been known to confuse French ATC at Calais and Le Touquet who have enormous difficulties working out what they are supposed to do when a VFR training flight and a real IFR flight are both holding or flying approaches at the same facility.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cheese-eating Surrender Monkey land
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah yes indeed Mr Donkeys!
Flying a scheduled service the other day into a large Northern French airport, we were rather surprised to find ourselves behind two English Pipers making cheap ILS approaches under VFR. After struggling for a little bit, the controller had to tell them to leave the zone under VFR to allow us in.
The biggest part of the problem for us is to try to explain things in English over the radio, when they are not part of the standard RT phraseology. I am sure there are ways in which the VFR traffic could have remained near the hold, but the controller simply could not explain things to them clearly enough for them to understand. All he knew was that the pilots were not really allowed to accept an IFR clearance, so he could not guarantee the separation.
It would help if somebody really explained the IMC rating to our controllers. Whenever I talk to them about English people who are allowed to fly IFR in England but not in France, and still insist on flying our ILS in VMC under VFR they become confused and emotional. I can sympathise with them
Flying a scheduled service the other day into a large Northern French airport, we were rather surprised to find ourselves behind two English Pipers making cheap ILS approaches under VFR. After struggling for a little bit, the controller had to tell them to leave the zone under VFR to allow us in.
The biggest part of the problem for us is to try to explain things in English over the radio, when they are not part of the standard RT phraseology. I am sure there are ways in which the VFR traffic could have remained near the hold, but the controller simply could not explain things to them clearly enough for them to understand. All he knew was that the pilots were not really allowed to accept an IFR clearance, so he could not guarantee the separation.It would help if somebody really explained the IMC rating to our controllers. Whenever I talk to them about English people who are allowed to fly IFR in England but not in France, and still insist on flying our ILS in VMC under VFR they become confused and emotional. I can sympathise with them
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm... Silence came the reply.
2Donkeys you know as well as I do how long it can take to find the relevant docs when you actually need them
It would create something of a problem for the many overseas schools too.
The non-UK JAR schools (US/SA/Oz) need special dispensation to operate and teach JAR lessons (from the "host" JAA-state - UK, CAA) do they not?
We had a thread on here recently about one school losing it's JAA-approved status...
So this may not help understanding the case of UK-based FI's crossing the french-FIR boundary and instructing. (I agree that under JAR it should )
2Donkeys you know as well as I do how long it can take to find the relevant docs when you actually need them
It would create something of a problem for the many overseas schools too.
The non-UK JAR schools (US/SA/Oz) need special dispensation to operate and teach JAR lessons (from the "host" JAA-state - UK, CAA) do they not?
We had a thread on here recently about one school losing it's JAA-approved status...
So this may not help understanding the case of UK-based FI's crossing the french-FIR boundary and instructing. (I agree that under JAR it should
)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cheese-eating Surrender Monkey land
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am hoping it doesn't work in both directions. I often bring students across to Shoreham, Manston and other places from France, often under IFR.
My money is on Mr Donkeys!
My money is on Mr Donkeys!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I am looking at the ANO, in which the FI rating and its privileges are defined in law.
I am also looking at JAR-FCL 1.300 in which it appears to suggest that the FI rating is valid for instruction in any JAR state. France and the UK have both signed up for mutual recognition of JAR-FCL1, so I would imagine that clinches it. N'est-ce pas Mr van Rental ;-))
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rustle
"As others have indicated, if nobody on board has an IR, then the approach can only be flown under VFR, and therefore in VMC."
Not wishing to be pedatic, I just always get confused on this one.
Why cant you fly the approach under IFR but maintaining VMC in the same way a vanilla PPL in the UK can fly under VFR as long VMC below is maintained?
"As others have indicated, if nobody on board has an IR, then the approach can only be flown under VFR, and therefore in VMC."
Not wishing to be pedatic, I just always get confused on this one.
Why cant you fly the approach under IFR but maintaining VMC in the same way a vanilla PPL in the UK can fly under VFR as long VMC below is maintained?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, without referring to my "pocket ANO" , you can't fly IFR in France (or most places) without an IR - irrespective of met conditions VMC/IMC.
In the UK you can fly under IFR without IR or IMC rating, but you can't fly in IMC (met) without one or other...
The confusion seems to be about Rules -v- Met.
, you can't fly IFR in France (or most places) without an IR - irrespective of met conditions VMC/IMC.In the UK you can fly under IFR without IR or IMC rating, but you can't fly in IMC (met) without one or other...
The confusion seems to be about Rules -v- Met.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without in any way wishing to needle Fuji Abound, this is precisely the problem that Thrifty van Rental and I were on about.
The mutual lack of understanding, French ATCOs about UK ratings and privileges and British pilots relating to rules outside the UK makes this a much more difficult area than first meets the eye.
The mutual lack of understanding, French ATCOs about UK ratings and privileges and British pilots relating to rules outside the UK makes this a much more difficult area than first meets the eye.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: europe
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why fly under IFR in VMC on an instrument approach in France, Why not fly VFR and route via the hold and the approach path. Strikes me as perfectly legal.
If one pilot is using foggles, and the other is watching out and can assume control at any time still no problem.
The only problem would be logging the flight, but the letdown and approach practice would still have been carried out and the pilot better for it.
If one pilot is using foggles, and the other is watching out and can assume control at any time still no problem.
The only problem would be logging the flight, but the letdown and approach practice would still have been carried out and the pilot better for it.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In practice, this is exactly what happens Bluskis.
The only issue that arises, as others have written is when ATC need to mix genuine IFR traffic, with the VFR boys. Under these circumstances, the VFR boys will normally get the boot for a while to allow the IFR arrival to take place.
The only issue that arises, as others have written is when ATC need to mix genuine IFR traffic, with the VFR boys. Under these circumstances, the VFR boys will normally get the boot for a while to allow the IFR arrival to take place.