Daunting Types?
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Daunting Types?
My efforts to drum up interest for shares in a Wilga 2000 has prompted an interesting question:
Since the 'usual' group and flying club aircraft tend to be Cessna or Piper offerings we seem to be rather 'catholic' in our tastes (this is true of the USA too I suppose). Does this mean that a signifcant number of pilots - particularly newly qualifed - deliberately avoid flying more unusal types?
Have you ever been somewhat daunted by an aircraft type?
Would you rather not fly types that you have been told are 'tricky'?
I suppose this topic is very broad (good for a debate). It might be an opportunity to debunk some 'type' myths and encourage some of you to have a crack at something a little more interesting?
Since the 'usual' group and flying club aircraft tend to be Cessna or Piper offerings we seem to be rather 'catholic' in our tastes (this is true of the USA too I suppose). Does this mean that a signifcant number of pilots - particularly newly qualifed - deliberately avoid flying more unusal types?
Have you ever been somewhat daunted by an aircraft type?
Would you rather not fly types that you have been told are 'tricky'?
I suppose this topic is very broad (good for a debate). It might be an opportunity to debunk some 'type' myths and encourage some of you to have a crack at something a little more interesting?
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There's a Broussard group here at Eggesford, along with an Auster 9 group and a number of other unusual groups. One of the high-time Auster pilots (2,500+ on Austers) says he doesn't like flying cubs because they're too easy, while the Auster is always a challenge, even for him. It's good to stretch yourself.
QDM
QDM
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I heard the Broussard described last week as being 2nd only to the Antonov AN2 as being the most uneconomical way of turning avgas (money) into holes in the sky (flying pleasure). Ha ha. They do look somewhat "ungainly".
I am at first blush daunted by the P51D, but I could I think overcome that with the application either of vast quantities of money or the generosity of a P51D owner... same applies to the Spitfire, Corsair, P40...
I am at first blush daunted by the P51D, but I could I think overcome that with the application either of vast quantities of money or the generosity of a P51D owner... same applies to the Spitfire, Corsair, P40...
I'matightbastard
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There were two Broussards in a hangar in Gainesville Texas for the longest time. I heard the bloke what bought them got them really cheaply, but was waiting for paperwork to make 'em legal to fly in the US...and waiting and waiting...
Looked like they'd be a lot of fun though and flying railway carriage is an appropriate description.
Looked like they'd be a lot of fun though and flying railway carriage is an appropriate description.
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And in case anyone didn't understand the referrence to the chronometric tachometer, it is a tachometer that indicates RPM at a limited number of discrete RPM values (usually 50RPM increments). Thus it will tend to flick and jump as power settings are changed. Very odd!
It makes seeing small RPM changes (e.g. when applying carb heat and when leaning) problematical.
It makes seeing small RPM changes (e.g. when applying carb heat and when leaning) problematical.
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Our group Jodel has a chronometric tacho but as far as I can tell, it will indicate any rpm value. However, because it seems to work on a sampling basis, any rpm changes take a few samples to stablise, i.e there is always a delay before the new reading is shown. In fact most of the instruments are quaint in this (french) aircraft, the ASI reads in km/h, and I've never worked out what french units the oil pressure reads in. Fortunately the gauge has red, amber and green sectors and I can cope with them.
Still, it gives the aircraft a lot of character, and we have the original black-crackle instrument panel and original vertical throttle levers.
Still, it gives the aircraft a lot of character, and we have the original black-crackle instrument panel and original vertical throttle levers.
Last September I bought the WAR replica P47 Thunderbolt advertised in Popular Flying magazine. And a few weeks ago I flew it for the first time...now that was daunting! Broke all the rules...
first flight on an unfamiliar type
from an unfamiliar grass airstrip
with self induced pressure to fly it home before the weather and my days off ran out...
It all turned out OK in the end. See P47 website but next time I'll do things differently.
There might not be a next time because this one is so much fun!
Russell
p.s. One day I'll learn how to land it properly.
first flight on an unfamiliar type
from an unfamiliar grass airstrip
with self induced pressure to fly it home before the weather and my days off ran out...
It all turned out OK in the end. See P47 website but next time I'll do things differently.
There might not be a next time because this one is so much fun!
Russell
p.s. One day I'll learn how to land it properly.
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Very interesting thread. I have long wondered why so many PPLs only ever fly Cherrytrees and 172s and suchlike. They may be very practical and reliable flying machines - but I sometimes wonder if their pilots know what they are missing in terms of real flying fun?????
Do they care?
Which begs the question, how many of us fly for fun, how many for practcal purposes?
SSD
Do they care?
Which begs the question, how many of us fly for fun, how many for practcal purposes?
SSD
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When I was newly qualified, I deliberately tried to fly more interesting types. The only one that was daunting was the Pitts (S2A), and then only from the front seat.
In defence of the "spamcan" hirers, though, it can be quite difficult to find something interesting to rent. At the airfield I used to fly from in the UK, there are 5 flying clubs. Between them, they have Cessnas (152 / 172), Pipers (PA28 / 38), and a couple of small Robins. When the most exciting type available is a Piper Arrow, it's perhaps understandable that myths take hold and a Jodel, Pitts, Chipmunk or Wilga becomes something very daunting.
Unfortunately also, "daunting" types sometimes live up to their reputations. A club I fly from in France bought a very nice little Jodel. Last autumn someone got caught out by a cross-wind on the single hard runway, and destroyed the undercarriage and propeller. Three weeks ago, it had another accident (
) and is now being sold (
). Most club members fly 10-15 hours a year in a Robin DR400 and many have been put off taildraggers for life.
As for your Wilga.... it's a shame it's so far away! It sounds like the ideal machine for my kind of flying. Can you put skis on it?
In defence of the "spamcan" hirers, though, it can be quite difficult to find something interesting to rent. At the airfield I used to fly from in the UK, there are 5 flying clubs. Between them, they have Cessnas (152 / 172), Pipers (PA28 / 38), and a couple of small Robins. When the most exciting type available is a Piper Arrow, it's perhaps understandable that myths take hold and a Jodel, Pitts, Chipmunk or Wilga becomes something very daunting.
Unfortunately also, "daunting" types sometimes live up to their reputations. A club I fly from in France bought a very nice little Jodel. Last autumn someone got caught out by a cross-wind on the single hard runway, and destroyed the undercarriage and propeller. Three weeks ago, it had another accident (
) and is now being sold (). Most club members fly 10-15 hours a year in a Robin DR400 and many have been put off taildraggers for life.As for your Wilga.... it's a shame it's so far away! It sounds like the ideal machine for my kind of flying. Can you put skis on it?
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What do we mean by daunting ?
I have flown several types with either high approach speeds or with seeming acres of "bonnet" trying to hide the runway and they presented challenges unless properly current etc.
I suppose they would be daunting but then so would flying a 172 in a challengeing and gusty crosswind.
Flying a 172 can be just as much fun as a J3. Its all about what you do with them, where you go and how you go there.
Really daunting must surely be a small single seater with more power than is needed and with wings so small that the word glide has a vertical definition. Say a Cassutt.
I have flown several types with either high approach speeds or with seeming acres of "bonnet" trying to hide the runway and they presented challenges unless properly current etc.
I suppose they would be daunting but then so would flying a 172 in a challengeing and gusty crosswind.
Flying a 172 can be just as much fun as a J3. Its all about what you do with them, where you go and how you go there.
Really daunting must surely be a small single seater with more power than is needed and with wings so small that the word glide has a vertical definition. Say a Cassutt.
Suave yet Shallow
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yeah I've always been interested in new types too, but as has already been pointed out...most places only have spamcans - or charge silly amounts for something slightly unusual.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Like others, I actually prefer to fly something a little more "daunting". Close to the top of my "must have" list when looking for an aircraft was that it had to be a tail-dragger. The mono-wheel that I fly is a tail-dragger to extremes.
Having said that, one thing I always try to do (in everything, but especially aviation) is respect others' choices. If someone wants to buy a share in a PA28 because they know the type and they're happy with it, that's fine by me, so long as they're going to enjoy it.
Last Sunday I flew my Europa for the first time in a few weeks (due to some maintenance issues). I had had plenty of flying practice in the meantime, including two IMC training flights in a C172 earlier that day. But even so, as I was taxying towards the run-up area, my heart was beating just a little faster than normal at the thought of getting this strange beast safely onto the ground at the end of my flight.
Of course it all went fine - just a tiny bounce on landing as the tail-wheel touched down on a bump, but definitely towards the better end of my Europa landings. But it's easy to see why people stay away from the more exotic types sometimes.
FFF
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Having said that, one thing I always try to do (in everything, but especially aviation) is respect others' choices. If someone wants to buy a share in a PA28 because they know the type and they're happy with it, that's fine by me, so long as they're going to enjoy it.
Last Sunday I flew my Europa for the first time in a few weeks (due to some maintenance issues). I had had plenty of flying practice in the meantime, including two IMC training flights in a C172 earlier that day. But even so, as I was taxying towards the run-up area, my heart was beating just a little faster than normal at the thought of getting this strange beast safely onto the ground at the end of my flight.
Of course it all went fine - just a tiny bounce on landing as the tail-wheel touched down on a bump, but definitely towards the better end of my Europa landings. But it's easy to see why people stay away from the more exotic types sometimes.
FFF
-----------
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All talk of spamcans goes straight over my head.
To date,
- learnt on HR200
- a few hours European touring in a Warrior
- tailwheel conversion on Super Cub
- currently own and learning to fly my part-share in a Jodel
plus
- one dual glider launch
- 20 mins in a Falke
- righthand seat in a GY-80 Gardan
Nowt much conservative about that!
If people are passionate about flying, they'll seek out the best and not just go for what's on offer from the nearest school. I findeed it is daunting, then the PPL will play it safe.
To go from a C152 to say a WW2 fighter would be daunting. Pilot would probably kill themselve son takeoff, if not, in a spin shortly after. C152 to say a Jodel less so, but perfectly manageable and safe given experience is properly instilled.
All depends on your interests in aviation and what level of FUN you want!
BlueRobin
...whose Jodel is a right little handful on the ground roll post-landing.
To date,
- learnt on HR200
- a few hours European touring in a Warrior
- tailwheel conversion on Super Cub
- currently own and learning to fly my part-share in a Jodel
plus
- one dual glider launch
- 20 mins in a Falke
- righthand seat in a GY-80 Gardan
Nowt much conservative about that!
If people are passionate about flying, they'll seek out the best and not just go for what's on offer from the nearest school. I findeed it is daunting, then the PPL will play it safe.
To go from a C152 to say a WW2 fighter would be daunting. Pilot would probably kill themselve son takeoff, if not, in a spin shortly after. C152 to say a Jodel less so, but perfectly manageable and safe given experience is properly instilled.
All depends on your interests in aviation and what level of FUN you want!
BlueRobin
...whose Jodel is a right little handful on the ground roll post-landing.
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I've gone out of my way to fly as many different types as possible since gaining my licence. Some are undoubtedly more daunting than others, but finding the inner resources and developing the knowledge and skills to operate them safely is a big part of the appeal of flying for me. As time goes by, what once appeared daunting becomes less so - it's how you know you're learning.
The first time I sat in the Yak 52's front cockpit I felt distinctly daunted. After 30 hrs on type, I find it straightforward and friendly, though like FFF in his Europa, I still find I have a raised pulse and dry mouth sometimes in the moments before I start the engine and begin to taxi. I don't mind that - I think a certain amount of it helps me focus on the absolute seriousness with which I have to treat the whole endeavour of flying, even if it is for fun. The Pitts S2 I still find rather daunting, and in less guarded moments have been known to use the word 'intimidating', but I know that in time, and given the cash (!) I will come to terms with it.
One aeroplane I expected to find daunting but didn't is the Stearman - for some reason, perhaps its sheer size, I expected it to be incredibly heavy and physically demanding. But in the air I found it precise, talkative and remarkably co-operative. However I only have one flight under my belt and I am certain, as with all the aeroplanes I fly, even the PA-28, that it is capable of showing me a more challenging side. Even a pussycat will bite in the right (wrong) circs, like when you reach the end of a lovely grass runway in a Tiger Moth and find you can't turn off along the taxiway because of the slight crosswind.
I appreciate that people learn to fly for all kinds of different reasons and many, including a good friend with whom I've often discussed this, have no ambition to fly anything other than a nice PA-28 or C-172. Good luck to them - for those who prefer to challenge yourself by flying long complicated routes, developing your instrument flying, traversing busy complex airspace, these are all worthwhile and rewarding things to work on, and quite capable of being every bit as daunting.
The first time I sat in the Yak 52's front cockpit I felt distinctly daunted. After 30 hrs on type, I find it straightforward and friendly, though like FFF in his Europa, I still find I have a raised pulse and dry mouth sometimes in the moments before I start the engine and begin to taxi. I don't mind that - I think a certain amount of it helps me focus on the absolute seriousness with which I have to treat the whole endeavour of flying, even if it is for fun. The Pitts S2 I still find rather daunting, and in less guarded moments have been known to use the word 'intimidating', but I know that in time, and given the cash (!) I will come to terms with it.
One aeroplane I expected to find daunting but didn't is the Stearman - for some reason, perhaps its sheer size, I expected it to be incredibly heavy and physically demanding. But in the air I found it precise, talkative and remarkably co-operative. However I only have one flight under my belt and I am certain, as with all the aeroplanes I fly, even the PA-28, that it is capable of showing me a more challenging side. Even a pussycat will bite in the right (wrong) circs, like when you reach the end of a lovely grass runway in a Tiger Moth and find you can't turn off along the taxiway because of the slight crosswind.
I appreciate that people learn to fly for all kinds of different reasons and many, including a good friend with whom I've often discussed this, have no ambition to fly anything other than a nice PA-28 or C-172. Good luck to them - for those who prefer to challenge yourself by flying long complicated routes, developing your instrument flying, traversing busy complex airspace, these are all worthwhile and rewarding things to work on, and quite capable of being every bit as daunting.
The Original Whirly
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Knocking the Piper and Cessna flyers while saying we aren't...here we go again. 
I speak as someone who flies anything I can lay hands on, f/w or rotary, and spending my life stumbling from one challenge to another, BUT....
Who says that flying has to be challenging? What is wrong with relaxing after a hard week, on the odd occasions one can afford it, by boring holes in the sky in your local area? I fly f/w aircraft very rarely, but when I do, I fly a hired C152...and it's fun.
And I hope it always will be.
I speak as someone who flies anything I can lay hands on, f/w or rotary, and spending my life stumbling from one challenge to another, BUT....
Who says that flying has to be challenging? What is wrong with relaxing after a hard week, on the odd occasions one can afford it, by boring holes in the sky in your local area? I fly f/w aircraft very rarely, but when I do, I fly a hired C152...and it's fun.
And I hope it always will be.
High Flying Bird
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All the aircraft I have flown I have found daunting to some degree. Early in my PPL training I would be driving to the airport wondering what on Earth I was doing. And that was 'just' a C152. Having gained my PPL I started a tailwheel conversion in a Chipmunk. Just looking at the huge size of the machine made me apprehensive. But after a few circuits I started to feel much more a part of it, and like it was my home. The thrill of conquering the mighty beast (well almost ... I ran out of money before I could solo) left me walking tall and desperate to get my hands on more interesting types. The more initially daunting the better, as the more satisfaction I'll gain from learning to control it. Bring 'em on! 
I'matightbastard
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One of the most interesting aspects of flying to me is that there is always a next level to adapt to.
I remember that when I went from a 152 to a 172, I just sat there and looked at "all those instruments" That was daunting, but didn't stay that way. Then I got into a 182 and had to handle all that power. Now the 182 seems like riding a bike, which is not to say that I'm a great pilot, just that I'm ready for the next challenge - of which there are many.
I remember that when I went from a 152 to a 172, I just sat there and looked at "all those instruments" That was daunting, but didn't stay that way. Then I got into a 182 and had to handle all that power. Now the 182 seems like riding a bike, which is not to say that I'm a great pilot, just that I'm ready for the next challenge - of which there are many.
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Whirly -
Not knocking anyone or their aeroplane, honest, and I apologise to anyone who took it that way. I'm very partial to the Archer II I sometimes hire for getting around in, and had a most enjoyable 90 mins in it earlier this year doing nothing but general handling and a series of mixed circuits - flapless, glide, bad weather, short field etc. One of the best hours I've spent in an aeroplane this year. And I did make a point of checking out on the C-152 recently, as it felt like a gap in my education - and what a smooth, light and lovely thing it was, it put a big smile on my face. As for sometimes wanting to go out and have fun without a lot of headache, of course, and I'm a firm believer in the idea that anything as expensive as private flying should be fun, otherwise why bother? It's just that learning is fun too, and even if a lesson is sometimes hard work, those are often the ones I find most rewarding, looking back on them. Plus, having a broader repertoire means you have more ways of having fun in future!
Not knocking anyone or their aeroplane, honest, and I apologise to anyone who took it that way. I'm very partial to the Archer II I sometimes hire for getting around in, and had a most enjoyable 90 mins in it earlier this year doing nothing but general handling and a series of mixed circuits - flapless, glide, bad weather, short field etc. One of the best hours I've spent in an aeroplane this year. And I did make a point of checking out on the C-152 recently, as it felt like a gap in my education - and what a smooth, light and lovely thing it was, it put a big smile on my face. As for sometimes wanting to go out and have fun without a lot of headache, of course, and I'm a firm believer in the idea that anything as expensive as private flying should be fun, otherwise why bother? It's just that learning is fun too, and even if a lesson is sometimes hard work, those are often the ones I find most rewarding, looking back on them. Plus, having a broader repertoire means you have more ways of having fun in future!